Too thin horse - blood test?

[Deleted member 150717]

I'm not happy about Ludo, he is thinner than any of his previous 3 winters but is eating like .... a horse. He's wormed with moxidectin 6 weeks ago, praziquantel and ivermectin in July, and I'm about to worm test just in case. I think he is unhappy with the split barn arrangement that I have had to do to stop Deza eating too much. Full of energy, no signs of a virus or infection. Good poop quality. Same food haylage and grass cubes (different quantity)


I have a vet doing jabs on Tuesday and I plan to ask them to humour me, (because he looks very healthy, just too thin for my comfort), and pull blood for a kidney and liver function test. Would you add anything to that list?
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My horse is a standardbred and he was very thin there is a thread about him ‘horse rescue transformations’ the first post. He is on allen and Paige soothe and gain to make him fatten up a bit it is high calorie low sugar but enough to keep him going as he’s so young don’t really want to pump him full of sugar! I couldn’t say enough good things anoutb

I'm not happy about Ludo, he is thinner than any of his previous 3 winters but is eating like .... a horse. He's wormed with moxidectin 6 weeks ago, praziquantel and ivermectin in July, and I'm about to worm test just in case. I think he is unhappy with the split barn arrangement that I have had to do to stop Deza eating too much. Full of energy, no signs of a virus or infection. Good poop quality. Same food haylage and grass cubes (different quantity) for the last year plus. Nothing else changed that I can think of.


I have a vet doing jabs on Tuesday and I plan to ask them to humour me, (because he looks very healthy, just too thin for my comfort), and pull blood for a kidney and liver function test. Would you add anything to that list?
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I have a standardbred gelding rescue there is a thread about him ‘horse rescue transformations!’ The feed he is on is Allen and page soothe and gain it really helped him gain weight really quickly and as he’s so young (3years) it’s a low sugar feed but slow releasing calories and sugar to keep him going when he is in the field. I couldn’t say anything bad about it and it’s good for ulcers too!!

 

[ycbm]

It goes against the grain but.. if you do try anything try equerry conditioning mash. It is the ONLY thing I’ve ever found to keep Bog looking well and a million dollars in winter. I know the in ingredients aren’t ideal but it’s so palatable which is half the battle so I put up with it.

If I didn’t feed Bog this he would be a hat rack all winter. Even not hunting. Some horses just need that bit of help I think.

Unfortunately I've now managed to confirm that he's almost as reactive to linseed as he is to alfalfa!





I'll put Soothe and Gain on the possible list though, thanks peeps. Grain, alfalfa, linseed and soya free, sounds good.
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[doodle]

Hate to say but it does have linseed in it.

 

[Chinchilla]

What about rice bran? It tends to be about 15mJ/kg compared to 20mJ/kg for micronised linseed but still fairly high. It's quite starchy though so maybe not the best if he's prone to being explosive.

 

[ycbm]

Hate to say but it does have linseed in it.

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Well that's out then, thanks I don't know how I missed that!

 

[TPO]

Hate to say but it does have linseed in it.

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Equimmins advance complete has linseed too and until the current hoo-haa re Equimmins I believe that Ludo has been ok on this?

Perhaps he can tolerate enough to have soothe and gain like Kamikaze suggested?

My TB isn't intolerant to linseed but fed at the rate he would need for it to be conditioning it blows his tiny brain. I've been feeding Baileys no.21 ease and Excel mix with great results along with grass nuts, pink mash and dengie meadow grass (& progressive earth, brewers yeast and salt)

 

[ycbm]

What about rice bran? It tends to be about 15mJ/kg compared to 20mJ/kg for micronised linseed but still fairly high. It's quite starchy though so maybe not the best if he's prone to being explosive.

No, he's a darling. Unless you feed him linseed, alfalfa and I still suspect cereals but I'm not going to test that any time soon

 

[ycbm]

Equimmins advance complete has linseed too and until the current hoo-haa re Equimmins I believe that Ludo has been ok on this?

Perhaps he can tolerate enough to have soothe and gain like Kamikaze suggested?

My TB isn't intolerant to linseed but fed at the rate he would need for it to be conditioning it blows his tiny brain. I've been feeding Baileys no.21 ease and Excel mix with great results along with grass nuts, pink mash and dengie meadow grass (& progressive earth, brewers yeast and salt)

He has indeed been on the Equimins, and that's how I confirmed that he reacts badly to linseed even in very small quantities!

 

[Chinchilla]

No, he's a darling. Unless you feed him linseed, alfalfa and I still suspect cereals but I'm not going to test that any time soon

Hmmm.... I'd try the rice bran then; I really don't know what else it could be, medically, so might as well try dietary changes.
It's got all the benefits of an oil but WAY less messy. (If the thoroughbred gets too poor over the winter he gets it, and he's a much poorer doer by the sounds of it than Ludo.)

Although if you're managing him like a pssm2 horse then he shouldn't get it due to the starch levels.

 

[ycbm]

Just testing the vitamin E at the moment, one thing at a time otherwise you don't know what worked. I'm actually happy to have cold weather forecast for a week because then I'll know it's not the grass coming through if he gets fatter on the vitamin E

For anyone joining this at the end, he looks really well and is full of energy and happy to work, I just know from previous years that it shouldn't be taking the amount of food he's eating to keep him like it.

 

[Lady Jane]

@ycbm I haven't read the pages of replies but how old is he? I have have found my horses need more to eat as they get older - and I have a meticulous worming routine, teeth done as per vet recommendations, rugging as appropriate etc. But I would have got bloods done as you did

 

[ycbm]

He's nearly 6 and very lovely The increase in food is disproportionate, he really shouldn't need three to four times as much bucket food as last year, I don't think.

 

[Lady Jane]

@ycbm agree thats not right

 

[Squeak]

He's nearly 6 and very lovely The increase in food is disproportionate, he really shouldn't need three to four times as much bucket food as last year, I don't think.

I agree that doesn't sound right either. Hopefully it is just something to do with the winter this year and not anything more sinister. If you did want a higher calorie feed for him in the future would copra be worth looking at for him?

https://stanceequitec.co.uk/product/coolstance

I've got a horse that's been reacting to a lot of feeds. I've been lucky so far that he's such a good doer that he's managing on just haylage, grass and a balancer but I'm not looking forward to if that changes and I have to start finding the right one for him.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Is he only fed grass nuts?

ETA if he is I'd increase calories being fed before getting vet out to run bloods for everything. Just grass nuts and good hay (not haylage admittedly but I think you've said previously yours is like hay?) would have mine looking like neglect cases in winter! They arent in work over winter at all and still need more calories than properly adlib hay and grass nuts could provide alone.

Edited again to add that grass nuts are only around 10-12mj/kg. They aren't the be all as a conditioning feed. Seems crazy not to try feeding more calories first

That is the answer for so many, if it looses weight shove more food in, there could never be another reason for the weight loss

Personally I would not add calories in case there is a reason for the weight loss. Speaking from experience with my pony who lost weight despite feed. Turns out she has IBD and if I had not done a random blood test we would not have known till too late. Had to do a complete diet change for the inflammation to go. If they are loosing weight I never shove more food in until I do a blood test



**ycbm
I would do one at least you will know**

 

[TPO]

That is the answer for so many, if it looses weight shove more food in, there could never be another reason for the weight ?

Young, growing horse in work receiving not enough calories (grass nuts are 10-11mj/kg. I said up to 12 in case I'd missed a brand) and querying weight. The first answer is to feed the required calories.

This wasn't a horse already receiving RDA and dropping weight. He was fed the same as previous winters but as a year older, bigger and in work it eas not enough. OP has made her own changes and seem an improvement alongside the blood test.

Perhaps read whole threads before making incorrect statements and eye rolling

 

[ycbm]

Young, growing horse in work receiving not enough calories...The first answer is to feed the required calories.

This wasn't a horse already receiving RDA and dropping weight. He was fed the same as previous winters but as a year older, bigger and in work it eas not enough. OP has made her own changes and seem an improvement alongside the blood test.

Perhaps read whole threads before making incorrect statements and eye rolling

None of this is correct. TPO, you need to take your own advice because you completely missed an update that the weight gain I managed was not sustained when he worked.
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[ycbm]

We'll have to disagree on grass cubes TPO, I think they are one of the best possible feeds for a horse in light work. The whole feed thing has been massively complicated by suppliers. My principle, after having issues with soya, beet, linseed and alfalfa in the past with various horses, is simple is best. Also, I wasn't stupid enough to leave a physically bigger horse on the same quantity of food as when he was smaller you suggest ? Of course his food was increased as he grew, but he shouldn't need 3 or 4 times the calories at nearly 6 as he did at nearly 5.

So, to recap, I fed him more first, of the same sort of food he's done well on before. There's no reason I can see at the moment to change to a different feed unless he won't eat the volume to get the calories, and he will. He puts on weight until he works then it drops again.

Then I blood tested and bloods are completely normal.

I tried a vitamin mix which has made no difference except that he is reacting in a very typical way for him to the linseed in it.

I'm now trying vitamin E because of his breeding and the time of year, and if this does nothing the plan agreed with the vet is to see what the spring grass does. If that doesn't change anything, or if it happens again next winter, then we start a fraught process of trying to identify why he isn't absorbing his food. I hope we don't get there!

I will repeat, he looks really well. Nobody would suspect a thing except a person who fed and rode him last winter and is feeding and riding him this winter.
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[CanteringCarrot]

Hm. My 8 year old is taking more feed at the moment than ever before. He's a PRE and people would faint at the amount of food he gets. Fortunately he tolerates alfalfa and linseed in his feed. He's on vitamin e every year when he comes off grass. I also feed Brewer's yeast and Agrobs MyoProtein flakes. Are either of those an option? There are also a wide variety of oils nowadays. I use linseed oil, but not an option for you I suppose.

Friends mare, albeit older, is also requiring more feed this year and has lost some weight. She just had bloods pulled last week. I've no idea what is going on. Not sure if other liveries are experiencing similar.

Maybe I'll be able to ease off some feed when the grass comes.

 

[Littlewills]

I've had a type 2, diagnosed on symptoms and response to management. It's a spectrum disease, they aren't all as bad as each other, mine was reasonably easy to manage.

The type 2 test is not itself peer reviewed, I believe, so I don't trust it or think it's the full picture.

It may well be a spectrum disease but its also life-limiting and progressive. If you suspect type 2 then a muscle biopsy may help although it does tend to throw false negatives sadly. Treatment is more complex than vitamin e so it would be worth doing some research, especially if the vitamin e has helped.

 

[Littlewills]

It may well be potassium hes reacting to rather than linseed, so thats something else worth considering.

 

[TPO]

[


None of this is correct. TPO, you need to take your own advice because you completely missed an update that the weight gain I managed was not sustained when he worked.
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Cowparsley quoted my first or second reply on this thread, I was replying to them only.

I'm well aware that the narrative will have changed as per usual. I stopped reading after my last reply and have only replied now because cowparsley quoted me.

I love grassnuts they are a brilliant feed but they are not the be all and end all and their calorie content is their calorie content. I cant be bothered scrolling back through to directly quote but you said yourself that he had grown and various other things along those lines and that you increased the feed. I stopped reading when I posted my last reply as I've already said.

I honestly dont care what anyone else does with their horses. That the horse wasnt receiving sufficient calories based on what you said you were feeding appeared blatantly obvious to me and others. You disagreed, c'est la vie. Not my horse, not my problem. You've found a solution, happy days.

I was only replying to cowparsley because she quoted me and her statement was wrong. This wasnt a horse receiving enough/additional calories and still dropping weight. It wasnt a recommendation on my part to over feed or blindly "shove more food in".

 

[quizzie]

Two thoughts : were Vit E and selenium levels checked on recent bloods?

As I think I have said before, my horse lost weight , more so when exercised, when on a diet of alfalfa/grass nuts/linseed/copra. I have found he doesn’t digest linseed well.
Oats made no difference.
He now is blooming in moderate work on alfalfa/micronised barley/mic maize/mic peas, with crushed hemp seed .....he cannot maintain weight without a moderate NSC component to his diet, and actively loses weight on an oil diet above approx 6%.
He also has large amounts of Vit E plus a separate selenium supp.
He is PSSM negative on genetic tests (though these are in no way conclusive)

 

[ycbm]

That the horse wasnt receiving sufficient calories based on what you said you were feeding appeared blatantly obvious to me and others.

Blatantly obvious? I don't know what you were reading but it can't be what I was writing.

I don't know of any other lightweight 16.1 horse on light work, 30-45 minutes 2-3 times a week who would not be as fat as a pig on 10-12kg of good haylage, 5 kg of quality grass nuts and another 1.25kg calorific value of oil and 7-9 hours of plentiful grass. Never mind one who in previous years had been a good doer!

You have persisted from the start in telling me that he isn't getting enough calories, when the whole reason for the thread is that he is getting masses of food but failing to use it properly.

I have kept horses for over 40 years, I am not enough of an idiot to pay for blood tests on a horse that I am systematically starving.

This wasnt a horse receiving enough/additional calories and still dropping weight.

YES IT WAS!

 

[ycbm]

OK, so hoping this thread is now only being followed by people who are reading what I'm actually writing instead of making up their own version.

He's been on vitamin E at 5000iu for 5 days. He's been ridden twice in that time. If he looks as bonny tomorrow as he does today then I will be reducing the food a bit, otherwise his weight gain will be too fast for safety.

I'm hoping this isn't just some temporary blip, and also that I'm not imagining things. It's great that the weather has gone so cold, because otherwise things might get confused with warmer weather and even potential grass growth. There's still going to be a bit of a question, because I can't ride in this weather. And it worries me a lot that I can see a connection between his work and weight loss, but if he has a mild vitamin E dependant muscle myopathy, then I guess that would be reasonable. And given his spots, not unlikely. There are absolutely no signs of one, though.

It's interesting to read how many people are having to give more food than usual this year, I wonder whats going on?
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[Chinchilla]

That's a ton of food.
He's getting 13,000 calories from grass nuts alone.

Fwiw maintenance calories for a 500kg horse is about 15-20,000 a day iirc. Obviously you'd expect a bit more in winter but not quite that much.

Have you done checks for hind gut issues?

Might be worth trying pre/probiotics when your vit e trial is done, if it doesn't give you results.

ETA although not that it matters any, but I'm feeding everyone - with the notable exception of the 31yo! - considerably less than I have done in previous years, and am rugging less (even the thoroughbred).

 

[Palindrome]

I think he is receiving enough food but some horses are naturally lean due to their "race horse" metabolism. Last winter, my boy was having 5 kg per day of alfalfa pellets (the kind that's also made for cow, with a high level of proteins) on top of straw and hay and a small amout of barley, rugged, worked once a week (1 hour hack) and he was just ok, sustaining his weight.
This year he is on ad lib rich hay (I changed yard du to the other yard being stingy on hay hence feeding large amount of alfalfa) and a token feed with linseed and supplements and he is getting a bit ribby. I dumbly purchased a bag of competition type mix from the tack store but that doesn't seem to be helping. Fortunately, alfalfa and linseed are ok for him, but I would definitely feed grass pellets or sugar beet if I could get some (he gets a bit footy on spring grass so I would prefer not to feed alfalfa).
The 2 others with him, an AES mare and a shetland/welsh cross pony are well covered.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Just testing the vitamin E at the moment, one thing at a time otherwise you don't know what worked. I'm actually happy to have cold weather forecast for a week because then I'll know it's not the grass coming through if he gets fatter on the vitamin E

For anyone joining this at the end, he looks really well and is full of energy and happy to work, I just know from previous years that it shouldn't be taking the amount of food he's eating to keep him like it.

Fellow spotty owner here and agree with the alfalfa, soya, linseed and oils. Though he can tolerate rapeseed oil.

He needs very careful feed over winter other wise he does drop badly.
He is on Forage Plus vit E at 10,000 iu in winter and half that much in summer.
He is type one negative as his parents are registered appys.
I won't pay out for the type two tail test as it isn't peer reviewed yet and at £350 I am not spending that money until it is

He tied up twice while we got his diet and management right.

When he drops weight he doesn't loose his sparkle or energy, he just looks too lean and ribby.
He does very well on dengie meadow grass and the soak grass nuts plus keeping warmer than normal.

Fingers crossed the upping the vit e helps.

My vet has said in 5he past she wished all horse owners add vit e to their horses especially in winter as it would probably cure alot of problems as she thinks they aren't all pssm but just deficient.

 

[paddy555]

My vet has said in 5he past she wished all horse owners add vit e to their horses especially in winter as it would probably cure alot of problems as she thinks they aren't all pssm but just deficient.

Totally agree with your vet and I really don't understand why all owners are not supplementing vit e in their horse's diets on a daily basis. simply doesn't make sense when it is so simple to do.

In ludo's case if he had not had additional supplementation until now, and I cannot see anywhere that it says he did have but I apologise if I missed it, I would have blood tested for E before starting because that way you have a better idea what you are dealing with ie a horse with deficient low levels that you can re blood test to check for improvement. If no improvement and the levels are still low then you can start with a problem ie with the product or a problem with the horse's ability to absorb vit E in that particular form ie natural/synthetic or liquid oil/dried oil.

If you don't have a starting vit e level and the horse improves then you have no way of being sure it is vit E deficiency especially if considering PSSM with no other symptoms and it becomes costly feeding high levels of something that may not be needed.

 

[HobleytheTB]

A couple of horses at my yard are requiring more hard feed at the moment than normal for the winter, despite having ad-lib hay in the stable and field. I'm assuming that either our hay or grass is less calorific than usual for whatever reason.. (all horses came out of summer fat).

The only standardbred that I know always drops weight over winter regardless of what/ how much hard feed it gets (and believe me, the owner has tried just about every feed imaginable!). Summer grass is about the only thing that makes a big difference.

Have you ever experimented with pre/pro-biotic/ gastric supplements? I'm usually not a fan of adding supplements for the sake of it, but I do sometimes wonder if certain horses need a bit of extra 'help' to extract nutrients from feed, despite not having gastric issues as such...