Took the Red Head out for some schooling ..

Actually, out of curiosity I looka t other videos.
OPs other horse-calmer but not dissimilar. This one, a year ago doing the same thing over similar heights.
This is not jumping 'for fun' as someone else says. Yes, she is seriously good looking and if she was a bit more chilled would be very talented.
The signs are there, a 'happy' horse would not have a mouth constantly chewin, this is not 'expressing' herself like ellend whitakers ladina b (who in a high pressure environment I can understand-I also don't think she looks happy so no good comparing the two for me)
It is the acceptance of this 'being her way' that irritates me no end. Trainers often agree with riders to keep the peace or because they know if they don't they will lose the business. Becoming used to something doesn't make it acceptable.
What exactly makes you think this mare is enjoying it? Having her mind blown cetainly makes sense.
How do you explain the mares behaviour in her mouth (go back and watch), the wide eyes, the freezing to one spot moments hmm? Looks to me like you don't make much attempt to solve the problem, evident in more than just one video.. And I bet it could be reduced, the bucking could be a habit I agree, thats not what I'm on about..
 
JessPickle said:
so you two can "read this horse" however no one else can. I have met the horse, borrowed the horse for camp! seen her at shows (in a snaffle may I add) but have obviously misjudged her completely and don't have a clue. As has Lucy and her well respected trainer of course.

You should get your eyes checked! because you eyes are lying. reading through your past posts made an interesting read, pretty much being a total cow to as many people as you can I see! yet not actually posting anything about your own riding.
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Dont get your knickers in such a twist. Its only my opinion. Dont take it so personally.
 
I just think its seriously mean to write such stuff on here. Upsetting people and not giving a dam. There are way to say things and I think you two are overly harsh. Whatever people say "it's only a forum" etc its bound to hurt someone.

Interestingly I seem to have never known of either of you, seen pictures/videos of your horses or you riding.
 
SusieT said:
Actually, out of curiosity I looka t other videos.
OPs other horse-calmer but not dissimilar. This one, a year ago doing the same thing over similar heights.
This is not jumping 'for fun' as someone else says. Yes, she is seriously good looking and if she was a bit more chilled would be very talented.
The signs are there, a 'happy' horse would not have a mouth constantly chewin, this is not 'expressing' herself like ellend whitakers ladina b (who in a high pressure environment I can understand-I also don't think she looks happy so no good comparing the two for me)
It is the acceptance of this 'being her way' that irritates me no end. Trainers often agree with riders to keep the peace or because they know if they don't they will lose the business. Becoming used to something doesn't make it acceptable.
What exactly makes you think this mare is enjoying it? Having her mind blown cetainly makes sense.
How do you explain the mares behaviour in her mouth (go back and watch), the wide eyes, the freezing to one spot moments hmm? Looks to me like you don't make much attempt to solve the problem, evident in more than just one video.. And I bet it could be reduced, the bucking could be a habit I agree, thats not what I'm on about..
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I agree. But im not gonna keep arguing the case. We see something different from what a lot of others are seeing.
 
So lets look at this horse having 'fun'! shall we? Now some of these could be explained by a forward horse, being fresh, I do appreciate that. And on revieiwng the vid I did notive she is very happy when she settles over a jump, yes, which makes me far more convinced the rhythm would be easily sorted if a bit of perserverance and the correct techniques- not just allowing her to 'have her ways' which means she winds herself up and is wound up by the rider by virtue of that. Some of what you are doing is certainly good.
Since she is having such fun perhaps it can be explained the following expressions of her joy?:
Vid 1: Right at the start-ears back, head up (riders hands up, not helping) chopping and changing leads. After the jump, mouth opening, tongue sticking out, more fighting.
Vid 2-Lunging at fence to begin with-generally rushing is associated with worry about a fence. About 20 sec, eyes rolling. Before and after, head up, very tense in the back.
Vid 3-about 20sec in again-looks like she draws herself to a stop again? Mouth trying to open (but cant due to grackle), then obv the stop, dealt with well mind.
Vid 4-20sec, starts having a tantrum, mouth opening, ears back, eyes wide. worried expression for a few seconds.
It actually looks to me like she starts to panic herself. When given something to focus her mind on (e.g the bounce or short lines) she is vastly improved, again which suggests if a really good trainer who didn't just 'accept' this way of giong was found, accepted there was a tendancy to it but worked to improve it and thus the mares pshyce (and thus the performance) then she would be a much better performer and happier.
 
I care pretty much for the welfare of the horse and that's it. I will not sugarcoat it into 'well dear how lovely your purdy horse is and how shiney her eyes which lavish love upon you' when I can see stupid things being done/said.
I've never said 'its only a forum' Behind each computer is a real person and in each vid.. a real horse!
 
JessPickle said:
I just think its seriously mean to write such stuff on here. Upsetting people and not giving a dam. There are way to say things and I think you two are overly harsh. Whatever people say "it's only a forum" etc its bound to hurt someone.

Interestingly I seem to have never known of either of you, seen pictures/videos of your horses or you riding.
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I applogise for being harsh and upsetting anyone. I guess i dont post videos of myself on forums is for this very reason. It allows people to judge you. If you are going to do it, you have to have a thick skin, and dont allow what others say bother you.
I ride a lot differently from the majority of people on this site, including the op, and if i posted videos of me riding, there is bound to be people who disagree with how i train my horses. Thats fine. It doesnt bother me at all. But if i do put something online of me riding, im gonna have to accept the fact that others are not gonna agree and may well say so. im quite happy to argue my case, maybe thats my problem lol. Im an opinionated person, and im sure i come accross as that, but after all, its just my opinion.
 
To be fair Lucy has no videos of Ruby at home, only competing. This is Ruby at home with my sister riding (her first ever go on ruby) there is a difference in not sugar coating and being totally harsh.

[youtube]p7PziYLgZTk[/youtube]
 
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She does look like a nice mare. She still looks a little tense, but i understand this isnt her usual rider. Id just be inclined to give her a little more rein to stretch her neck out a bit, but i guess thats easy for me to say sitting in front of the computer lol. But she does look a lovely mare and has a great jump in her.
 
Jess I should ignore it if I were you. As someone wise on here recently said those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

I'm not a prolific poster but Susie T and JennyHarvey I think you have both given me the push I need to stop using this forum. I really had hoped that your sort of completely ridiculous and obviously uniformed armchair criticism was confined to other sections of the forum. But it seems not, you can miraculously judge and give unsolicited opinions from a few videos, when vets, trainers and various equine specialists have spent hours working with this horse (in real life) coming to a totally different conclusion. Ho hum no fool like........

LM catch up on face book.
 
Interesting when she is relaxed she is still not settled in her mouth, obviously much more settled on the flat at home which is nice of course.
OP-do a test for me would you? Trot her in a small circle on a hard surface? That vid may of course be years old but there is a bit of a head nod at times which could be the not settled in her mouth, but it won't hurt you to have a look and make sure nothings amiss.
 
help1-peopl without fail say they have had their horses checked out etc. often they are lying, not saying this is the case here. A video is a real time thing. Yes I can judge things and give opinions-nobody is forced to take them but I will defend them and of course anyone is welcome to defend their own opinions, it's a free forum.
 
SusieT said:
help1-peopl without fail say they have had their horses checked out etc. often they are lying, not saying this is the case here. A video is a real time thing. Yes I can judge things and give opinions-nobody is forced to take them but I will defend them and of course anyone is welcome to defend their own opinions, it's a free forum.
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You can judge (judge being the operative word) but with no degree of accuracy or insight. The OP in her original post was not looking to solicit your uniformed twaddle, you gave it unasked then expressed outrage that no one agreed with you, smacks of omnipotence to me.

We stop posting on this now as doubt you will accept this.
 
knowing lucy personally i have found this quite difficult to read. to have accusations thrown around about the well being of her horse is something i find quite ridiculous. of course you do not know her and nor do you know the horse so understandably have some qualms regarding ruby's rather eccentric way of going. she is, like lucy stated, a very quality mare unfortunately who did not have the best start in life. she did do too much too soon and this affected her greatly.

she's a mare that has had many an issue in her past causing her to behave like this. but honestly i don't think she could of landed in a better home. of course you are doubtful of if this mare is comfortable in herself but let me assure you that this mare has certainly had every check that i think would be satisfactory even to your standards, back, saddle, teeth etc etc. and i now feel with you being aware of this you are now trying to find other issues such as a slight head nodding. from what i have gathered from what i've seen you post you cannot seem to fathom that this is simply how this mare behave and you're trying to find a reason. can you not understand it is a mental issue to do with how she's been treated in the past?

in your eyes this girl may be doing everything wrong with her horse seeing as it is not 'your way' however if this is the only way for it to be done and it's OWNER has no idea of what is right for her horse can i please please just ask you why this horse has and is improving? it may be a slow process but she's vastly different from when lucy got her, and in a positive way as well.

and on to reading horses, lucy is so so so capable of reading a horse it's untrue. she knows what is best for her horse surprisingly and seeing as she has accommodated ruby and her ways and listened to what the horse has told her on many occasions i am struggling to find any kind of real truth and knowledge in your replies....
 
I don't think I said there was anything wrong with this horse physically (until the last vid)..more how it was being managed/the problem dealt with. Amazing how many new posters there are tonight.
 
Holy sugar some of you have harsh opinions. I know it's a forum but still.
One of my mares is a little bit like this. I'll know never to post a video on here.
 
susiet- in regards to the mare's management, could you offer any advice on how to get her going more 'textbook'
i have a mare who also didn't have the best start in life and for the past six years has now been passed through several homes. throughout this period she has competed on open teams in pony club and jumped a few foxhunter rounds but i am now left with a horse so mentally scarred it has taken me nine months to be able to get a half decent canter out of her.
ruby reminds me very much of my mare apart from the bucking but if i was to just canter around jumps in the school and give her time to relax i cannot say i would have gotten a canter out of her.
now i don't jump my mare at present due to her complete lack of confidence but on the flat my horse has her good days and also her bad days. sure she is plenty more relaxed with me now than when i first had her but i still have days when i cannot get a soft rounded trot. you may say lucy needs to be soft with this mare but can you not fathom that this is simply a stepping stone of progress. she has ruby down to a t and slowly but surely as ruby gets better the softness will come, you're seeing her halfway through a journey here and i'm sure if you'd seen her at the beginning you would not have the same opinion you do at present.

i also don't think my new membership effects the validity of my comments.
 
vhcx-I most certainly would have advice. Number one would be that circle just to check for soundness. No.3 would ideally involve an indoor school or competent lunger, depending on the lunging capability of this mare. I find loose jumping/lunge jumping extremely useful for teaching over enthusiastic horses to chill, but it requires a horse who is willing to go forward off the voice on the lunge and I suspect this mare might plant and have sideways spinning sessions on the lunge. If not, I'd be doing it firstly with just a bridle (lunging off a cavesson) then with a saddle and noting any changes. Thsi can be over any reasonable height. It needs to all be done very calmly, and really depends on what she is like when lunged.
No. 3 would involve a sandschool, poles in a circle and a couple of teency cross poles (ideally on blocks-they often aren't associated as being exciting with horses). Don't know what this mare is like with poles, I have known many horses v. calm with poles despite being forward jumpers. Over the poles, in an outline, slightly raised seat ideally, or simply rising trot, in a circle. About 20m. And you need to just sit on whatever she throws and keep going in that circle until it becomes non exciting. Jumping should not be exciting. Jumping should be like any other aspect of work. Then pick up a canter and continue at this. Then move to the blocks and same thing. Start by circling around the area of the block and only when you can get a slow and steady canter pop the cross pole. This might mean doing it from 2/3 strides away on a curve to avoid the revving up effect. And then its the same principle as the poles, repeat until calm. then start to vary it, always when she rushes circling, if appropriate before the fence, if not then as soon as you land.
It is difficult to explain over a forum but you must be calm, hands down, oftens singing soothing rhythms helps whilst doing this and countign beats as the rider must be absoloutely non reactive and chilled. It is better if you have a trainer who can do something like this with you to identify when she starts to listen/stops resisting/charging, it is hard to explain without being there,
All this would not be in one session probably, but over several. And the key thing is to not allow anything to change your philosophy, so if in competition she is rushing, use your legs to steer her direction after the fence. Forgot to mention that aboove, it all needs to be very much between hand and leg, with the leg supporting most of it and the hand simply directing and controlling speed without pulling. Again hard to explain for me anyway without being there in person.
With horses consistancy is key, you must never allow an unwanted behaviour as it will take 3 good repititions at least to undo said behaviour.
 
I`ve just watch all of the vids. The only time this horse miss behaves is when she is being held up. or slowed down. She obviously loves her jumping, and given half a chance would fly at them all.

All I see is a happy, keen, but overexcited horse - with a bit of "ginger opinion".

Lovely horse.......Well done
 
Gosh...i have just read this post, hope your okay Lucy. I think you have a lovely mare, she just like my old mare - proper ginger 'headbanger'!
 
I think (fwiw) that all the posters have some valid points here. The mare is lovely, and obviously talented. She is also tense and clearly needs more "help" to get her to overcome her issues regarding jumping (this can take years). Her behaviour in the vids is not what would be classed as "correct". There is always a reason for behaviour like this whether it be physical or mental and if the mares head was blown as a younger horse (and her feet, back, teeth, saddle etc have been checked) then it may purely be mental issues that need to be addressed, they were not in the vids that were posted. I would have liked to see the instructor giving the rider advice on how to manage it better. Rather than letting her go into the fence at full buck (she is quite good at them isnt she:D) and i also think that she needs to be ridden more consistently from leg to hand.

The video that was added later on of a girl riding her for the first time was pointless, it showed an out of balance rider riding a tense horse and nothing else.
 
SusieT said:
vhcx-I most certainly would have advice. Number one would be that circle just to check for soundness. No.3 would ideally involve an indoor school or competent lunger, depending on the lunging capability of this mare. I find loose jumping/lunge jumping extremely useful for teaching over enthusiastic horses to chill, but it requires a horse who is willing to go forward off the voice on the lunge and I suspect this mare might plant and have sideways spinning sessions on the lunge. If not, I'd be doing it firstly with just a bridle (lunging off a cavesson) then with a saddle and noting any changes. Thsi can be over any reasonable height. It needs to all be done very calmly, and really depends on what she is like when lunged.
No. 3 would involve a sandschool, poles in a circle and a couple of teency cross poles (ideally on blocks-they often aren't associated as being exciting with horses). Don't know what this mare is like with poles, I have known many horses v. calm with poles despite being forward jumpers. Over the poles, in an outline, slightly raised seat ideally, or simply rising trot, in a circle. About 20m. And you need to just sit on whatever she throws and keep going in that circle until it becomes non exciting. Jumping should not be exciting. Jumping should be like any other aspect of work. Then pick up a canter and continue at this. Then move to the blocks and same thing. Start by circling around the area of the block and only when you can get a slow and steady canter pop the cross pole. This might mean doing it from 2/3 strides away on a curve to avoid the revving up effect. And then its the same principle as the poles, repeat until calm. then start to vary it, always when she rushes circling, if appropriate before the fence, if not then as soon as you land.
It is difficult to explain over a forum but you must be calm, hands down, oftens singing soothing rhythms helps whilst doing this and countign beats as the rider must be absoloutely non reactive and chilled. It is better if you have a trainer who can do something like this with you to identify when she starts to listen/stops resisting/charging, it is hard to explain without being there,
All this would not be in one session probably, but over several. And the key thing is to not allow anything to change your philosophy, so if in competition she is rushing, use your legs to steer her direction after the fence. Forgot to mention that aboove, it all needs to be very much between hand and leg, with the leg supporting most of it and the hand simply directing and controlling speed without pulling. Again hard to explain for me anyway without being there in person.
With horses consistancy is key, you must never allow an unwanted behaviour as it will take 3 good repititions at least to undo said behaviour.
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I think that jumping your horse until it is totally bored and pissed off with jumping is definatley the way forward.

I've got a similar mare to Ruby, they all seem to be mares, who was winning foxhunters at 4 and also did far too much too young. She is very individual and I think of her as a 12.2 trapped in a 16.2 body. She is like riding an overgrown pony, and can be special needs, but I wouldn't want to bore her senseless into becoming some sort of robotic jumper.
 
Super_starz said:
Gosh...i have just read this post, hope your okay Lucy. I think you have a lovely mare, she just like my old mare - proper ginger 'headbanger'!
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^^^^ this.

All I want to know is how the heck you manage to sit so quietly to it all? And is the fab lower leg position down to the tretorns?!?!? ;)

I have enjoyed reading your past reports but not so sure if you'll post again thanks to this thread. :(
 
dieseldog said:
I think that jumping your horse until it is totally bored and pissed off with jumping is definatley the way forward.

I've got a similar mare to Ruby, they all seem to be mares, who was winning foxhunters at 4 and also did far too much too young. She is very individual and I think of her as a 12.2 trapped in a 16.2 body. She is like riding an overgrown pony, and can be special needs, but I wouldn't want to bore her senseless into becoming some sort of robotic jumper.
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Did you purposly misinterpret that post? Poster was not saying to bore the horse but to try and control the excitement to make is safer for horse and rider.
 
I think it is all too easy to judge when all you have is a snapshot in front of you, what people need to bear in mind is this is a milestone of improvement from the start of Ruby's "rehab", it is not the finished product nor was she asking for advice. What some may see as bad behaviour is a huge improvement for others and although I am sure many people lie about having had their horse checked I am equally sure Lucy is not one of these. Regardless it would probably be better if some people were less judgemental as you cannot know a horse better than its owner from a few minutes of video, especially when the owner has posted videos as a marked improvement. Maybe people need to be less suspicious and have a little more faith.
 
Just out of interest, SusieT, what level do you train nad ride at?
Could you post some footage or photos and enlighten us with an in-depth analysis of how you could improve your horse and your riding?
I would love to see this as I am a very visual learner and i find it very beneficial to learn as much as I possibly can from someone with infititely more experience than myself.
 
I don't think the people that can "read this horse" by watching a range of videos,are by far mistaken about this horse. Lucy has done so much to try and calm this horse right down, she'd done all the usuall checks, regularly. She's used many many exercises and had lots of advice and help from many people. Ruby as Lucy has said was overcooked as a youngster. She is generally hot headed. Ruby is one very happy and healthy horse.

Lucy, welldone to you, you stay on her soo well, and have stuck by her for so long.
 
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