Top level dressage - is it kind?

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MagicMelon

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After watching Edward Gals amazing performance on TV last night, I also got a horrible feeling from it. I appreciate the amount of work that must go into it etc. but its so unatural isn't it? The paces they do are not normal for a horse generally, and they do look so forced. I think show jumping / eventing etc. is easier to watch as the horse is allowed freedom to jump etc.
 
I don't think its unkind, I think it demonstrates the incredible bond the riders create with the horse. If it didn't want to do it, I don't think it would
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S
 
But is a Sj-er allowed freedom?

What do you class as freedom? That it's natural to jump? Yes, it's natural to jump, and many horses are allowed the freedom to use their own instinct to jump, but some arent. Pushing a horse beyond it's comfort zone isnt natural, nor are spurs... you could take this on forever.

Quite frankly, seeing an overbent horse sweating it's ******* off to please a crowd isnt my idea of entertainment. But then i do like seeing the Lippizaners, so am I a hypocrite?? I don't know, I'm undecided on most of it, I just know something about it all makes me feel very uncomfortable.

I guess I'm just a tree hugger in training
 
Beleive it or not Magic Magpie, the movements performed in this level of dressage are actually based on the horses' natural movements! Horses in a field/herd situation can often be seeing performing very elevated and extended movements, including passage/piaffe (particularly stallions!). Riders do ask for a greater degree of collection and schooling is required to enable the horse to perform these movements on request and with a rider on his back. I don't think dressage per se is cruel, but I absolutely do think there is scope for debate on training methods - such as the one going on in the thread about Totilas.
 
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I wouldn't jump if my horse didn't enjoy it. I don't ride with a whip or spurs as I believe this is the only way to create natural impulsion. Others may disagree, but oh well.

S

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Slightly off topic here, but even if you don't ride with a whip or spurs, you are still kicking your horse to make it go. What is the difference between that and a tap with a whip?
 
I rarely enjoy seeing pictures of top dressage horses. If it weren't forced why the severe equipment. I especially hate the use of such tight crank nosebands, can't see how it's an example of harmony or of the horse being 'natural'.....
 
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I wouldn't jump if my horse didn't enjoy it. I don't ride with a whip or spurs as I believe this is the only way to create natural impulsion. Others may disagree, but oh well.

S

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Slightly off topic here, but even if you don't ride with a whip or spurs, you are still kicking your horse to make it go. What is the difference between that and a tap with a whip?

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A whip creates energy, that then needs to be used by the legs.. The legs create forward and impulsion (correct me if I'm wrong)

S
 
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I wouldn't jump if my horse didn't enjoy it. I don't ride with a whip or spurs as I believe this is the only way to create natural impulsion. Others may disagree, but oh well.

S

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Slightly off topic here, but even if you don't ride with a whip or spurs, you are still kicking your horse to make it go. What is the difference between that and a tap with a whip?

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Hi mayflower, some horses, like bob, doesn't need a whip, he is well trained to aids, so a squeeze is perfectly adequate.

Tapping with a whip, instead of using your legs, isn't that just the easy way out?
 
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I rarely enjoy seeing pictures of top dressage horses. If it weren't forced why the severe equipment. I especially hate the use of such tight crank nosebands, can't see how it's an example of harmony or of the horse being 'natural'.....

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If we're going to talk about severe equipment I think showjumping wins that one hands down!!

Any equipment can be severe in the wrong hands.
 
S_J - You have missed my point slightly - what I mean is if you feel it is cruel to hit your horse - why is it not cruel to kick it?

And I am interested to know how you use the energy created by a whip with your legs
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(unless you mean 'contain' the energy)

You are lucky Bob is such a responsive horse. My ned can get lazy - I would rather tap up with a whip slightly than nag nag nag with my legs. The horse should go off your very lightest aid, whatever that may be.

Anyway you two - stop hijacking!
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tbh we all know that if a horse didnt want to do something they wouldnt do it, even with the use of spurs and whips we all know if they were that pissed of they would just buck us off.
All these top level horses whether it be dressage, driving,show jumping, eventing whta ever have all the best care like regular teeth check,back checks, vet checks ect as they have to be 110 to compete at such a level.
Carl hester regually says when doing demos that when he goes to view a horse its all about how they feel some horses have that natural elevation, some horses do not, thats something you cannot teach or force, for a horse that has that natural elevation its just a case of teaching them to balance it, improve and manage it into what you see is a dressage routein.
I love watching high level dressage and I envy those riders and trainners who have the patients and understanding to bring the best out of those horses
Sorry for long rant lol
 
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S_J - You have missed my point slightly - what I mean is if you feel it is cruel to hit your horse - why is it not cruel to kick it?

And I am interested to know how you use the energy created by a whip with your legs
smile.gif
(unless you mean 'contain' the energy)

You are lucky Bob is such a responsive horse. My ned can get lazy - I would rather tap up with a whip slightly than nag nag nag with my legs. The horse should go off your very lightest aid, whatever that may be.

Anyway you two - stop hijacking!
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Damn it. You didn't get all in a huff
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haha
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I need a little bit of entertainment... :/
*crawls back into his hole*
 
There isnt just Carl Hester at top level though, there's plenty of other riders who don't use such 'kind' methods and who will 'force' a horse to do something rather against it's will. they're relying on the animal's good nature not to buck them off. You can 'talk' a horse into accepting a saddle is natural and won't hurt them, and you can 'talk' a horse into accepting that draw reins, side reins etc are natural and won't hurt them. You can even talk a horse into accepting that jumping through a hoop of fire is natural.

We see horses working abroad with terrible sores, and the animal purely carries on with it's work because it accepts that that's what it does. Or is that okay, simply because the animal doesnt kick it's handler in protest? 'It must be okay for an animal to carry on working with huge sores, because it doesnt resist'.

To a horse we are a predator, and we teach them that we will not hurt them, and in turn they trust us, and yes, they can learn that pain is the 'norm'. You could beat my daughter's pony with a whip and I'd bet he would simply pull a face (I don't know, i havent tried, but am guessing, for you could stick a rocket up his backside and hed still stand looking at you waiting for a treat) because he trusts us. Just because he doesnt react violently, doent mean it would be natural or kind to beat him with a whip.
 
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S_J - You have missed my point slightly - what I mean is if you feel it is cruel to hit your horse - why is it not cruel to kick it?

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Oh, I didn't mean using a whip is cruel! I just much prefer not to use one!

RE: The whip - I'll try and explain what I mean..

If you got on a horse and just used a whip, what would happen? It would move, but would it have no where near as much impulsion compared to if you got on and backed up the use of a whip with your legs.. Thats what I was trying to say (I wrote that trying not to patronize.. - sorry if it did!)

S
 
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tbh we all know that if a horse didnt want to do something they wouldnt do it, even with the use of spurs and whips we all know if they were that pissed of they would just buck us off.

Reply:

I do have to disagree with this I'm afraid. The ideal is to ask a horse for what you want through understanding and cooperation but I think that plenty of people manage to get their animals to do what they want by force, fear and coercion. I see plenty of horses (and dogs) trained this way. The old argument that they wouldn't do it if they weren't happy just doesn't stack up IMHO!
 
I don't think it's kind, or at least the training methods that some of the riders use behind closed doors aren't. Have you read the other thread about this, called something like Totilas - circus tricks?

That turned in to a really interesting rollkur, future of dressage breeding, and kindness/cruelty debate.

I hate the way the horses are trained and IMO, they don't object because they have learnt that there is no escape anyway, so what is the point in objecting. Terribly sad.
 
lol S_J - it is fairly impossible for you to patronize me. And for what it is worth I wouldn't be using a whip and my legs at the same time. Legs and then if no response, whip. Then allow forward. Simples.
 
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Quite frankly, seeing an overbent horse sweating it's ******* off to please a crowd isnt my idea of entertainment. But then i do like seeing the Lippizaners, so am I a hypocrite?? I don't know, I'm undecided on most of it, I just know something about it all makes me feel very uncomfortable.


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I assume you mean the Spanish Riding School? They are trained so so differently to how "dressage" horses are trained though; with respect, care and over many years. These horses are gymnastic, correctly muscled and the look in their eyes as they perform is different too. Look at, say, Salinero when he performs. He looks terrified and stressed. The SRS horses are proud, happy horses. They are also trained for the sake of making the horse more athletic and for training's sake, unlike modern dressage horses who are trained to compete.
 
obviuosly theres more riders than Carl Hester at the top!, I was just using him as an example as I have been to a few of his demos and I take in what he says.
But the point is with out that bound between a horse and yourself you not going to get anywhere are you.
No top rider is going to take a beaten horse with sores and what not to an event like Hickstead or a european Grand Prix and there are enough trainned eyes about to spot any horse that may have a problem.
Have you ever had a lesson with any kind of top dressage or show jumper?
If you have you will know that the majority of them will tell you not to kick kick kick but to be light with your leg aid and to ask for a transiton in order to gain respect and a quick responce.a whip is to used with your leg to back it up not instead of this is where some low level riders (not that Im a hight level am still unaffliated to) but SOME get it wrong they think that a whip it an aid on its own but it isnt it to be used with your leg with is the aid to begin with.
 
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lol S_J - it is fairly impossible for you to patronize me. And for what it is worth I wouldn't be using a whip and my legs at the same time. Legs and then if no response, whip. Then allow forward. Simples.

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You didn't do the Meerkat wink... I don't agree with whips... but DO THE WINK!!!
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S

I'm done hijacking now, sorry!
 
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lol S_J - it is fairly impossible for you to patronize me. And for what it is worth I wouldn't be using a whip and my legs at the same time. Legs and then if no response, whip. Then allow forward. Simples.

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A whip is used to back up the leg not instead of. if a horse ignores the leg then use the whip with the leg
 
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tbh we all know that if a horse didnt want to do something they wouldnt do it, even with the use of spurs and whips we all know if they were that pissed of they would just buck us off.
All these top level horses whether it be dressage, driving,show jumping, eventing whta ever have all the best care like regular teeth check,back checks, vet checks ect as they have to be 110 to compete at such a level.
Carl hester regually says when doing demos that when he goes to view a horse its all about how they feel some horses have that natural elevation, some horses do not, thats something you cannot teach or force, for a horse that has that natural elevation its just a case of teaching them to balance it, improve and manage it into what you see is a dressage routein.
I love watching high level dressage and I envy those riders and trainners who have the patients and understanding to bring the best out of those horses
Sorry for long rant lol

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Have a look at this. Explains why the horses don't appear to object - because they have learnt that objecting just makes things worse.

Learned Helplessness
 
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I have always been taught when Ive had dressage clincs,lessons,jumping lessons that a whip is to be used with the leg and no instead of the leg

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Just because you use them individually it doesn't mean that you are using them separately.

My whip backs up my leg. If my horse does not respond to leg then I use my whip. If he responds to that then I put my leg on again to contain whatever energy I get from whip. I just do it this way rather than using all the aids at once. Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I don't agree with you.
 
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