Topline - ART2Ride

A customer of mine uses A2R and I know it has helped a ton with straightness. On COTH there is some interesting chat about A2R and its "inventor" but I think it definitely has merits. I'm probably a bigger fan of Marijke De Jong (Straightness Training) and Manolo Mendez overall.
 
flying_high said:
Definitely small steps in the right direction build to big steps. That is meant to be a good book!

A friend recently gave me the Gillian Higgins Pilates for horses DVD - I have seen it and made notes, happy to post it to you, if want to take a look. Suspect there is overlap but I am more a visual person. https://www.horsesinsideout.com/product-page/pilates-for-horses

My horse came back from RVC 23rd December, and is slowly getting more supple and able to stretch, and more cat / panther like in movement.
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That's very kind of you :) you've actually just reminded me - the book I bought came with a DVD and I still haven't watched it! Once I've watched it, I'll do you a swap if you like? There are a couple of exercises I haven't done yet because I haven't quite understood them from the photos - I need to see them in action, I think.

Please to hear your horse is showing signs of improvement - it's probably going to be a long, slow and (let's face it) a bit of a boring process, but it'll all be worth it in the end!

MotherOfChickens said:
that is a very good resource-there are some great in hand pole exercises for a horse's core as well.
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Yes, I've been doing in hand raised poles - all I've been doing is putting him over them in walk, 4-6 in a row, back and forth a few times after he's fully warmed up. Have you any other exercises you could recommend? My issue is, it's such a pain getting them all out and putting them away, especially when I've got a baby asleep in the car and limited time before he wakes up and needs my attention.

Red-1 said:
I bought a very weak horse and put a "course" of 7 raised walk poles on the way to and from the field. It meant he did it twice a day at least! But, when that is every day without exception that adds up. Also if I were hacking we would have a diversion across the lawn, so some days 4 X a day :)
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This is such a good idea, will have to see if our yard owner would be open to it! Would save soooo much time and everyone could use them then, if they wanted to...

(Sorry Horsekaren, hijacking your post - these are all good ideas for your boy too though, help get his core engaged :) )
 
Horsekaren said:
Has anyone got any clips or links of a traditional cob type horse that is working forward?

I am very confused between 'Forwardness' and 'Speed'

I'm coming to the conclusion when i think he is being forward we are actually just speeding around :( Would be great to see an example.
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Let me see if I can find a video of the Diva in action for you. She was a 14hh traditional cob.
 
tristar said:
``balancing all the spinning plates at the same time`` analysing the horse you are sitting on, and feel, i like that that.
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When you're really learning "feel" it does in fact appear like that. You think you've nailed one bit, then another bit falls back. Depending on how much of your horses' attention you command (and his/her memory), this could take forever :D. Or indeed if the horse is well.... muscular, skeletal etc...

Sorry I did not put a lot of context behind "calm, forward & straight" - I've gone through many phases thinking which bit comes when etc and almost giving up umpteen times. The frustration, tears etc and downright anger at myself for not "getting it" is what most riders here have gone through. I tried many "methods" unfortunately. Each only took me down dead ends. It was only when I read Sylvia's book I started to join the dots.

I honestly think, the old books, the masters gave us everything we need. Concentrating on just one technique, to focus on just one part of the horse, is at the expense of the whole horse. e.g. the LDR camp, the FDO camp, the Action-Reaction camp, the rolkur camp, the gadget camp... theres a whole lot more horse than just it's neck. It's useful to be able to influence that though, don't get me wrong, but you can go into overdrive.

There is one thread that runs in all the "dressage masters'" books and that is about being able to have the attention of the horse. Can you, at a moments notice ask your friend to move off at the desired tempo you desire? Move his/her shoulders... quarters as you do you move yours? Do you have a contact that can tell a horse which bend you want, when, at the lightest touch? Is the horse listening? I get this 15% of my hacks now which I am more than happy with... she is only 7. She's only had 3 years training. Remember it takes 10 years to train a horse. (85% I work on the calm and forward and straight although jogging sideways past things we don't like is still default especially on a windy day).

I'm sure many people realise now that it's the short-cuts that break horses, too much of a good thing etc. I dunno, I'm no expert or authority, I don't post photos etc but I don't believe in short-cuts. You have to start your journey somewhere though. I just hope it's not like the one in the OP video.
 
I also don't subscribe to *A Method*
I think there are good bits to be scabbed from lots of methods but the horse in front of you dictates which bits work, and when.
But I don't share your horror of the video in the OP, tallyho, I watched the whole thing and the commentary, for me, totally justified and explained what I was seeing. I also watched on their youtube channel an older semi retired advanced horse being worked by a pupil and that also looked completely reasonable to me, began with easy stretching, ended with working-towards-collection and looked like a correct way of going IMO esp for a not-established combination. of all the methods out there, it seems like one that isn't likely to damage a horse in the long run, just might not fully realise its potential (as I might see it ;) )
 
I don't subscribe to a system either - I have used trainers who have their own system, and used others with (apparently) conflicting systems, and I've often found there's a great deal more overlap in what they say, than they necessarily admit. I try to pick the good that I see, where I see it, and let the horse judge whether it'll be any use to them. It would be disingenuous, though, to suggest that there aren't specific systems out there - whether following PK, GH, the Iberian school (or any division thereof) or...

I would far rather see a horse worked - predominantly, or in part - like the one in the video of the OP, than in a purely Dutch/German competitive, high pressure manner, or exclusively in the absolute elevation some classical trainers prefer. In reality, there's a place for most things - other than those which are based on excessive force, pressure or contortion - in the spread of training which a horse should do on its progression through a working life.
 
The idea behind Art2Ride is nice. Except it puts horses in an "all-weight-on-the-fores" for too long. Good stretching exercises become nonfunctional, if the horse is made to trot, all his balance on the fores, without any reason!
 
`ìt takes ten years to train a horse`` perhaps thats why i like older horses so much

its true the old masters gave us all we need is true, but to put it into action and fully understand where you are going and translate that into your training is not easy, it takes a long time yet it was staring you in the face when you look back.
 
tallyho! said:
When you're really learning "feel" it does in fact appear like that. You think you've nailed one bit, then another bit falls back. Depending on how much of your horses' attention you command (and his/her memory), this could take forever :D. Or indeed if the horse is well.... muscular, skeletal etc...

Sorry I did not put a lot of context behind "calm, forward & straight" - I've gone through many phases thinking which bit comes when etc and almost giving up umpteen times. The frustration, tears etc and downright anger at myself for not "getting it" is what most riders here have gone through. I tried many "methods" unfortunately. Each only took me down dead ends. It was only when I read Sylvia's book I started to join the dots.

I honestly think, the old books, the masters gave us everything we need. Concentrating on just one technique, to focus on just one part of the horse, is at the expense of the whole horse. e.g. the LDR camp, the FDO camp, the Action-Reaction camp, the rolkur camp, the gadget camp... theres a whole lot more horse than just it's neck. It's useful to be able to influence that though, don't get me wrong, but you can go into overdrive.

There is one thread that runs in all the "dressage masters'" books and that is about being able to have the attention of the horse. Can you, at a moments notice ask your friend to move off at the desired tempo you desire? Move his/her shoulders... quarters as you do you move yours? Do you have a contact that can tell a horse which bend you want, when, at the lightest touch? Is the horse listening? I get this 15% of my hacks now which I am more than happy with... she is only 7. She's only had 3 years training. Remember it takes 10 years to train a horse. (85% I work on the calm and forward and straight although jogging sideways past things we don't like is still default especially on a windy day).

I'm sure many people realise now that it's the short-cuts that break horses, too much of a good thing etc. I dunno, I'm no expert or authority, I don't post photos etc but I don't believe in short-cuts. You have to start your journey somewhere though. I just hope it's not like the one in the OP video.
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What is action- reaction?
 
Horsekaren said:
Has anyone got any clips or links of a traditional cob type horse that is working forward?

I am very confused between 'Forwardness' and 'Speed'

I'm coming to the conclusion when i think he is being forward we are actually just speeding around :( Would be great to see an example.
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Red-1 said:
Billy Whiz... Shows what is possible!


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So this example shows more speed than forewardness when he's young, progressing to genuine forewardness as his training progresses, do we all think?

He's delightful, isn't he? But he reminds me completely why I've gone back to only having lighter-weights. They are just so much easier to train to do this stuff, especially if the heavies are built more naturally downhill than this chap, which so many are.
 
ponyparty said:
Yes, I've been doing in hand raised poles - all I've been doing is putting him over them in walk, 4-6 in a row, back and forth a few times after he's fully warmed up. Have you any other exercises you could recommend? My issue is, it's such a pain getting them all out and putting them away, especially when I've got a baby asleep in the car and limited time before he wakes up and needs my attention.
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there are a few and although they are direct from a very well known equine physio, I don't know if they'd be correct for certain conditions but here you go.

Two jumping poles end to end with a gap in the middle for you to stand in-horse goes round you stepping over the poles. If the horse is bending correctly and not stiff he'll be able to do it in a nice rhythm without touching poles/rushing etc (you can make the circle bigger for a big horse or if they struggle). You can build this up to raising the inside of the poles -this makes them use their core on the inside to pick up that inside hind leg. Then drop the inside and raise the outside of the pole, that engages their core on the outside. You can make it easy by making the circle bigger at first and harder by making circle smaller/making them walk round where the poles are higher. Once they find that easy you can bring in a third and fourth pole. All done in walk on a fairly small circle.

Another is to have a pole on the ground, and while you are leading a horse along it, get him to step across it sideways-again work up to having either end of pole raised.

Mess of poles, several poles-all at different angles, different ends raised-get them to pick through it on a loose rope.

What I would say about raised poles for anyone who doesn't use them regularly, introduce them very slowly-they are quite hard work for a horse that isnt used to them or has other issues or is very one sided, dont underestimate how hard. These exercises are not meant to be done for 20mins at a time, a couple of rounds each is enough -little and often.
 
I am ycbm on the lovely cob clearly he’s a beautiful person with an awesome mind but I would not get up in the morning to ride him .

HK I think one of the simplest ways to check forwardness is to make a transition with in paces and between one pace and another
So check your trot by making a transition to walk and do three to five strides of walk and back to trot if it’s easy smooth and sharp back to trot it’s likely you are not far wrong .
Fordwardness is in the horses head as well as a physical attribute so another thing to consider is how carefully you have to bring the horses to understand what we want .
Many horses have their desire to move forward spoilt in early training .
So that’s the first thing I go to when I buy a horse I have a set system I work through with the new horse to check this and make the horse clear what’s required if things are not how I like them .
 
One of the best ways to find out if your horse is truly forward is to go from trot to halt (no pulling on the reins, 'though), and then straight back into trot from halt. If the horse "sits" into the halt and out of it you know he's really on your leg/seat and using his hind leg to push rather than his front legs to pull himself along.
 
milliepops said:
I also don't subscribe to *A Method*
I think there are good bits to be scabbed from lots of methods but the horse in front of you dictates which bits work, and when.
But I don't share your horror of the video in the OP, tallyho, I watched the whole thing and the commentary, for me, totally justified and explained what I was seeing. I also watched on their youtube channel an older semi retired advanced horse being worked by a pupil and that also looked completely reasonable to me, began with easy stretching, ended with working-towards-collection and looked like a correct way of going IMO esp for a not-established combination. of all the methods out there, it seems like one that isn't likely to damage a horse in the long run, just might not fully realise its potential (as I might see it ;) )
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That's fine, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I have mine obviously :).
 
tallyho! said:
That's fine, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I have mine obviously :).
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I agree with your earlier comment that in the first few minutes of that video the rider is allowing himself to be thrown out to the right in a very unbalanced way.

I didn't watch any more, because I will only use that technique for warm up of tense horses who aren't already too much on their forehand, and for breaks between harder work and for cool down. So I wasn't motivated enough to watch the rest to see where it went.

It does puzzle me why some methods want people to school the horse for lengthy periods of time in a way in which you never want to ride the horse in competition or even out on a hack.
 
agree with goldenstar, the thing i nurture most in early training, and i mean from the first day of backing is the understanding of go forward, not go forwards instantly at that stage, but building the habit of thats where you are going horse, forwards, of course some will be more forwards than others, its up to me to use tact to encourage a life long habit and way of thinking in the horse
 
The start of the video explained this particular horse's history which included over use of draw reins, contact issues, physical and muscular problems resulting from that to the point the horse nearly had a roached back.
I think in that case then a gentle rehab plan re-educating the horse how to relax its body and tootle around in a relaxed way under saddle is a sensible way forward. 🤷‍♀️ doesn't look very pretty but if it was as bad as they said then that kind of work seems the natural starting point.
 
I'm certainly no dressage expert but I thought it was routine to teach a horse to stretch down and out to the contact before asking him to lift from the shoulders? Mabey the art2ride person just does it for longer.
 
Cortez said:
One of the best ways to find out if your horse is truly forward is to go from trot to halt (no pulling on the reins, 'though), and then straight back into trot from halt. If the horse "sits" into the halt and out of it you know he's really on your leg/seat and using his hind leg to push rather than his front legs to pull himself along.
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This is how I've been trained to warm Rose up, quick transitions walk/trot, halt /trot, walk/canter up and down, down and up and it's been a real eye opener for me. She goes from being behind the leg and rather strung out to sharp and reactive and pushing from behind into a lovely contact. The best thing is (apart from the jimprovement in quality of work) in a warm up situation you can do it safely as you are never cantering around in big loops avoiding people as it's all very contained and controlled and the horse's focus is with you rather than what's going on around them.
 
oldie48 said:
This is how I've been trained to warm Rose up, quick transitions walk/trot, halt /trot, walk/canter up and down, down and up and it's been a real eye opener for me. She goes from being behind the leg and rather strung out to sharp and reactive and pushing from behind into a lovely contact. The best thing is (apart from the jimprovement in quality of work) in a warm up situation you can do it safely as you are never cantering around in big loops avoiding people as it's all very contained and controlled and the horse's focus is with you rather than what's going on around them.
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I'm going to try this.
 
I think that starting with a healthy, sound blank canvas is one thing.....picking up a damaged horse, be it physical and/or mental damage, is a totally different thing, especially if their issues are multi-factorial. Sometimes you have to work on one thing at a time and ignore some other bits and bobs pro tem but that works only if you have the experience to prioritise/understand how to unpick issues and then build horses back up again.

Art2ride is NOT new.....nor is straightness training....or any of the other marketing brands that arrive in my in-box on a daily basis. Some of us have been doing this for decades....possibly centuries?? Not religiously, but as one tool in the box of many that have been picked up over a long life listening to anyone and everyone. Still learning though. :)
 
mule said:
I'm going to try this.
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I pop in small circles when it feels safe to do so focusing on maintaining the rhythm and for Rose making sure she stays "quick " behind. for the first time ever I go into a warm up with a plan which seems to work and is doable even in a busy warm up. i do hope it works for you too.
 
oldie48 said:
I pop in small circles when it feels safe to do so focusing on maintaining the rhythm and for Rose making sure she stays "quick " behind. for the first time ever I go into a warm up with a plan which seems to work and is doable even in a busy warm up. i do hope it works for you too.
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I'll let you know.
 
Art2ride is like straightness training ,a marketing exercise they run a whole load of pretty expensive clinics all over the world .
People make a living from it but then all trainers are making a living hawking their skills .
I very nearly went to an art2ride ride clinic so I was very curious to see WF in action but it was long way and expensive and in the end did not fit in to want was going on up here .
Many of the horses in the clips have sad histories and if you follow them through they do develop and look better .
Like I said earlier I have heard some very nasty things said about WF by people in the dressage establishment it’s one of the things that made me spend so much time watching online what he is up too .
I fully embrace all people say about the issues with the system but compare it with what happening to far to many beauiful young horses in I just there’s much to take from it time ,simplicity no rush to compete and if you have a damaged horse to rehab it’s well worth spending time listerning to WF message and take from the training what you find useful .
 
who want to would to ride like wf? frankly i think his riding is awful!

but there are trainers who love horses for what they are and are motivated to help others, some trainers were born to passionately show the way.
 
I dunno - if I was riding like, say, Adelinde Cornelissen, I might see WF as a distinct improvement...

I mean, he does stuff I don't like, and he's far from perfect, but he's not the worst thing to happen to horse for sure - and if mimicking the better aspects of him is a means to a (better) end, I don't think it's a universally bad idea.
 
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