ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'm pleased that these sort of things do have some marketing these days though as there are plenty of us who didn't have access to that much 'good' information otherwise.
Topline - ART2Ride
- Thread starter Horsekaren
- Start date
tristar
Well-Known Member
well yes ac etc,
but he rides like sack of spuds, he is BEHIND the movement , yet is supposed to be rehabbing theback???
he is not with the horse and does not support his own bodyweight. his hands are 2 foot apart, his elbows go behind his body line.......
but yes i see there can be worse, but the trouble is people copy this and i do think he is using his hands too hard to put and keep the horse down there.
my novice pupils opinion is that it is bad riding, he is a cowboy and its not good, and why is he doing that for so long? but then novice pupil has innocent eyes, and sees things without prejudice.
but he rides like sack of spuds, he is BEHIND the movement , yet is supposed to be rehabbing theback???
he is not with the horse and does not support his own bodyweight. his hands are 2 foot apart, his elbows go behind his body line.......
but yes i see there can be worse, but the trouble is people copy this and i do think he is using his hands too hard to put and keep the horse down there.
my novice pupils opinion is that it is bad riding, he is a cowboy and its not good, and why is he doing that for so long? but then novice pupil has innocent eyes, and sees things without prejudice.
only_me
Well-Known Member
Having “felt†that moment in trot when horse is nose low yet back comes under/lifts, rhythm stays same yet light steady contact and in moment of absolute balance is magic, you suddenly get what you are working for. It just feels awesome!
Having felt it I know what I want and what it should feel like. It’s much more difficult to teach/train a horse without knowing what it should feel like and that’s half the battle imo.
HK to me your horse isn’t working - just trotting and when you attempt long low he just drops contact which shows he isn’t really working into a contact or using himself. It’s a lot harder when they aren’t built to work into your hands. I’d do lots of pole work but I’m not sure I’d focus too heavily on long low in your schooling sessions, I think he needs to get hinds working and come off his shoulders. Save the long low for stretching sessions start/finish.
I also don’t use any particular method, I have an idea what I want and work towards that by feel.
Having felt it I know what I want and what it should feel like. It’s much more difficult to teach/train a horse without knowing what it should feel like and that’s half the battle imo.
HK to me your horse isn’t working - just trotting and when you attempt long low he just drops contact which shows he isn’t really working into a contact or using himself. It’s a lot harder when they aren’t built to work into your hands. I’d do lots of pole work but I’m not sure I’d focus too heavily on long low in your schooling sessions, I think he needs to get hinds working and come off his shoulders. Save the long low for stretching sessions start/finish.
I also don’t use any particular method, I have an idea what I want and work towards that by feel.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
only_me
Well-Known Member
sbloom
Well-Known Member
This. Very few people have access to those with the sort of knowledge we are talking about. ST and the Mendez DVDs are brilliant, both rooted in the classical masters' work, unlike so much modern dressage, yet add to it just a smidge of modern biomech knowledge and lots (in the case of ST) of human psychology and learning theory. It's easy to diss these things as unnecessary systems, but I see the difference in the horses, and if we educate a few more people then all to the good.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I do absolutely agree with you, but why don't the instructors teach this at the very beginning? And if they don't know, why not? It would appear that the so-called "professional" qualifications available are in fact very far from that...
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with you to many trainers give a fun lesson and help to improve your scores .
The best trainers develop you over time so you can train any horse then lesson get to you working the horse and the trainer giving input and that just the best thing ever such fun .
A great trainer will instilling the basics in their pupils all the time and once some one has done that’s for you it’s there for life just like the young horse with correct basics .
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
lots and lots of people think they are doing the right thing by shelling out their hard earned cash week after week to a registered instructor.
Lots and lots of people learn absolutely nothing of this kind of thing as a result, what I've seen happen is either the instructor doesn't know either (they're a jack of all trades BHSAI for example and were never shown this during their training) or they think the pupil won't be able to do it or won't be interested, or, as GS says, they give a fun lesson that makes everyone go home smiling.
In addition I think more people do the majority of their learning on their own horse, and few people have access to the type of schoolmaster that makes throughness and feel and all that stuff easier to learn. There's no substitute for self-study and practice/experimentation in between lessons but that is sometimes difficult, frustrating and Not That Fun when you are figuring things out for the first time, I guess it's not for everyone. Whereas something parceled up in a well marketed and easily understandable format like ST does seem more accessible and probably makes progress seem more achievable?
Lots and lots of people learn absolutely nothing of this kind of thing as a result, what I've seen happen is either the instructor doesn't know either (they're a jack of all trades BHSAI for example and were never shown this during their training) or they think the pupil won't be able to do it or won't be interested, or, as GS says, they give a fun lesson that makes everyone go home smiling.
In addition I think more people do the majority of their learning on their own horse, and few people have access to the type of schoolmaster that makes throughness and feel and all that stuff easier to learn. There's no substitute for self-study and practice/experimentation in between lessons but that is sometimes difficult, frustrating and Not That Fun when you are figuring things out for the first time, I guess it's not for everyone. Whereas something parceled up in a well marketed and easily understandable format like ST does seem more accessible and probably makes progress seem more achievable?
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's realistic to expect the majority of trainers to have this level of knowledge.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I'd expect someone offering dressage or flatwork training at "normal" PC/RC level prelim/novice, say, to have an understanding of straightness, correct way of going, a decent contact and working towards throughness.
That's the bare minimum for me. There's no mystery to it, getting a horse to use itself correctly is not always easy to achieve particularly when there are already ingrained crookednesses from previous work, but it's also not complicated to understand and it's doing everyday hobby riders a dis-service to suggest that it's some kind of mystical complicated thing that they will never be able to grasp. dolloping around the school with the nose tucked in "doing dressage" doesn't cut it for me, that's poor training. JMHO
That's the bare minimum for me. There's no mystery to it, getting a horse to use itself correctly is not always easy to achieve particularly when there are already ingrained crookednesses from previous work, but it's also not complicated to understand and it's doing everyday hobby riders a dis-service to suggest that it's some kind of mystical complicated thing that they will never be able to grasp. dolloping around the school with the nose tucked in "doing dressage" doesn't cut it for me, that's poor training. JMHO
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Really? I'm astonished that you wouldn't think a supposedly professionally qualified instructor should have a sound understanding and practical facility in the basic principles of training horses.....wow. However that could explain the dire state of riding currently seen in the UK I suppose.
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
As Cortez said....PLUS I think there is the mentality of 'I want it now' amongst many riders which leads them to seek short cuts and temporary fixes.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I could not disagree more it ought not be unrealistic that people training people understand the basics of what they are trying to teach .
While we are on the subject a huge number of people seem to have little interest or perhaps ability to develop the riders position that’s what I was trained to do first correct and develop position and teach people to ride yet it seems few so often overlooked nowadays days .
Not sure if it’s the clients or the teachers who are driving that one
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I don't want to turn into a BHS bashing thread here, because I dropped out of BHS training about 15+ years ago completely disillusioned so might not be up to date. That said, some of the established products of the BHS system who have a good business base would have learnt the same syllabus I did 
I am trained by a FBHS but I don't really consider the qualifications that relevant... but I'm in the happy position of knowing *enough* to decide that for myself.
People starting out in their training journey probably would find it harder to make their own judgement about who to train with, if the person has some exams to their name then you'd expect them to be able to get you on the right track.
My own experience of the lower levels of qualified instructor are that they are well equipped to deliver interesting lessons, make safe tidy riders who aren't going to endanger themselves or their mounts in flatwork or jumping but unless they have their own special interest in actually developing or improving horses which has taken them on their own journeys outside the exam system, then they won't necessarily have a good grounding in that kind of thing.
If all you have experienced are RS horses, then your own average horse, taught by RS jobbing instructors and never had the chance to ride something really special or be taught by someone who really had an in depth knowledge or passion, then you won't know what you are missing out on so won't seek it out.
I am trained by a FBHS but I don't really consider the qualifications that relevant... but I'm in the happy position of knowing *enough* to decide that for myself.
People starting out in their training journey probably would find it harder to make their own judgement about who to train with, if the person has some exams to their name then you'd expect them to be able to get you on the right track.
My own experience of the lower levels of qualified instructor are that they are well equipped to deliver interesting lessons, make safe tidy riders who aren't going to endanger themselves or their mounts in flatwork or jumping but unless they have their own special interest in actually developing or improving horses which has taken them on their own journeys outside the exam system, then they won't necessarily have a good grounding in that kind of thing.
If all you have experienced are RS horses, then your own average horse, taught by RS jobbing instructors and never had the chance to ride something really special or be taught by someone who really had an in depth knowledge or passion, then you won't know what you are missing out on so won't seek it out.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I have experienced many trainers, low level to upper level dressage, and I do not believe they all have the ability to take every horse/rider combo and, using ridden work, correct the way of going and effectively, whether minor or major, rehab the horse. If they did then ST etc may not be needed. And VERY few can train you to do in hand work, so often the best way to improve a horse's way of going and musculature.
Agreed about rider position and agreed that most people want quick fixes so instructors teach what they feel they can in some instances. I have had customers who, in describing what their instructor does with them, have made me worry that progress isn't being made, and I don't see it in the horse's work, yet when they go to their trainer with my suggestions of in hand work the trainer is wholly on board. Most RC teachers are nowhere near being able to train those skills. I think there is a LOT of good intent, but a lack of in depth knowledge of this work.
Agreed about rider position and agreed that most people want quick fixes so instructors teach what they feel they can in some instances. I have had customers who, in describing what their instructor does with them, have made me worry that progress isn't being made, and I don't see it in the horse's work, yet when they go to their trainer with my suggestions of in hand work the trainer is wholly on board. Most RC teachers are nowhere near being able to train those skills. I think there is a LOT of good intent, but a lack of in depth knowledge of this work.
flying_high
Well-Known Member
I think for many peole riding well is HARD. By which I mean at a level to get a horse balanced, working to a contact, able to shorten and lengthen stride, influence head carriage higher or lower, stay in balance through soft connected transitions, control the shoulders and quarters etc. Able to use initiative to work out what exercises might improve horse’s current way of going on a particular day. Not necessarily anything to do with competing.
I have competed up to BD medium, and am a low level BD judge, but am still working on lots of the basics. I am not a natural rider, with poor posture, a twist, and lack of proprioception or co-ordination. It has taken a lot of blood, sweat, tears, pilates, physio, chiro, yoga, lessons, practise etc. to achieve my current level of low competence. It does come more naturally for someone people and not others.
You also need a sound, happy horse, that is physically capable of going correctly, a saddle that fits both of you, a decent instructor, and a fairly functional working body.
You also need an element of good mental health, confidence, resilience and determination
I see older friends with stiff, crock horses, with poor saddles, physical issues themselves, and confidence issues, and a desire to get horse’s head down and in, and I really don’t envy the job some of the local instructors and bodyworkers have. Everyone has good intentions.
I have competed up to BD medium, and am a low level BD judge, but am still working on lots of the basics. I am not a natural rider, with poor posture, a twist, and lack of proprioception or co-ordination. It has taken a lot of blood, sweat, tears, pilates, physio, chiro, yoga, lessons, practise etc. to achieve my current level of low competence. It does come more naturally for someone people and not others.
You also need a sound, happy horse, that is physically capable of going correctly, a saddle that fits both of you, a decent instructor, and a fairly functional working body.
You also need an element of good mental health, confidence, resilience and determination
I see older friends with stiff, crock horses, with poor saddles, physical issues themselves, and confidence issues, and a desire to get horse’s head down and in, and I really don’t envy the job some of the local instructors and bodyworkers have. Everyone has good intentions.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
For me, I think the big question is whether what used to be a BHSAI (think that's now a stage 3 coach?) should be enough of a qualification to set yourself up as a freelance instructor... or whether it really is better placed in a RS environment supporting/supervised by the more senior instructors? the old title was iirc Assistant Instructor yet I know plenty that reached that level and either didn't aspire to go any further in their professional training or didn't see the need to.
Dunno, it's a tricky one because I know I have experienced exceptional training from people with no formal qualifications at all and I would hate to see us move to a place where that wasn't permitted.
Dunno, it's a tricky one because I know I have experienced exceptional training from people with no formal qualifications at all and I would hate to see us move to a place where that wasn't permitted.
only_me
Well-Known Member
I don't go by qualifications for instructors I go by word of mouth and type of lesson i want.
YO actually taught me to ride - and I should have appreciated her teaching more me over the years. She still teaches me now on occasion. I've had teachings with 2 very very old school trainers who i think are high up BHS - both i hated when younger as the lessons were incredibly tough, I wasn't allowed stirrups for one of them and they both really made ME work as opposed to horse - but as I improved horse improved, simple really. Looking back I really should have appreciated them more and would kill to have another few lessons from them now. They were flatwork/ME lessons rather than dressage though. Eric Smiley gave me a few lessons once at a camp and also made ME work.
I've had jump lessons from word of mouth trainers - I don't even know if they have qualifications but one is a highly respected trainer and the other is a well respected experienced Eventer. Also had sessions with 3 excellent dressage riders/trainers, they each have their strengths and i know who to go to for what. But all very similar styles and again they are really good and I gain a lot from them but again I'm sure they have qualifications of some sort but that isn't what makes me go to them.
Also should point out that the majority of the people I get lessons with (apart from the 2 old old school) came from my PC, we have a lot of high quality teaching and that's partly which makes our club one of the biggest in UK. And i'd say 70% of club are on young horses they are bringing on themselves, so maybe that's also why we got good teaching as good groundings for horses.
I think actually a lot of people are getting lessons in week in week out without giving themselves time between lessons to do their homework and are focused more on getting something out of a lesson that day rather than realising it's a work in progress.
YO actually taught me to ride - and I should have appreciated her teaching more me over the years. She still teaches me now on occasion. I've had teachings with 2 very very old school trainers who i think are high up BHS - both i hated when younger as the lessons were incredibly tough, I wasn't allowed stirrups for one of them and they both really made ME work as opposed to horse - but as I improved horse improved, simple really. Looking back I really should have appreciated them more and would kill to have another few lessons from them now. They were flatwork/ME lessons rather than dressage though. Eric Smiley gave me a few lessons once at a camp and also made ME work.
I've had jump lessons from word of mouth trainers - I don't even know if they have qualifications but one is a highly respected trainer and the other is a well respected experienced Eventer. Also had sessions with 3 excellent dressage riders/trainers, they each have their strengths and i know who to go to for what. But all very similar styles and again they are really good and I gain a lot from them but again I'm sure they have qualifications of some sort but that isn't what makes me go to them.
Also should point out that the majority of the people I get lessons with (apart from the 2 old old school) came from my PC, we have a lot of high quality teaching and that's partly which makes our club one of the biggest in UK. And i'd say 70% of club are on young horses they are bringing on themselves, so maybe that's also why we got good teaching as good groundings for horses.
I think actually a lot of people are getting lessons in week in week out without giving themselves time between lessons to do their homework and are focused more on getting something out of a lesson that day rather than realising it's a work in progress.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
totally agree with that - on the receiving end of lessons I actually prefer the sessions where we tap into something, maybe discover a knotty problem, can see the way though but maybe can't get the end result to the ones where you just skim through having a lovely ride. I can have a lovely ride at home! I am paying to pick through problems
But I remember way back when finding that kind of lesson quite frustrating. It's only having a bit of experience under your belt that gives you the knowledge *for yourself*, rather than just being told, that you WILL get there, it just takes time. It's hard, when you're at the beginning of something, to have faith that you just need to do some good practice!
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I gave up teaching last year, you are right in what you say. Some clients were interested in a different (to them) approach, where we would initially solve issues on the ground, so they had a better idea of feel and timing, more understanding on what pressure and a release are, a horse who had learned to soften in mouth, body and mind. Others could not understand my viewpoint that no, I would not hold their horse for them to get on, as IMO (or at least in my lesson) if they can't get on then they have no business on the horse (yet).
I was also a product of the BHS, and the exams can indeed be passed by someone with a very sheltered riding school / college set of experiences. This does not then help them to help people with horses not from that same narrow source. I supplemented my BHS experience with working for dealers, an eventer and a showjumer, but I saw many people who did not.
I learned to have a velcro bum, what risks are worth taking with the babies, or naughty horses. Also lucky enough to ride top horses (was lucky enough to ride up to Grand Prix SJ horse, once a GP dress, and advanced eventers - not to their capacity, but to exercise/ school/ hack). Also, with my own horses, competing in many disciplines and having instruction from different schools of thought so can pick up different ideas and work out how they fit into MY system.
I would agree that once you know what a feel can feel like you chase it in your own horses. Many BHS only experienced riders seem very mechanical. An exam is not everything, although being registered tends to mean you are insured, have a knowledge of record keeping, have a basic lesson plan to include warm up etc.
scats
Well-Known Member
I did my BHS stages and teaching exam. I did it purely because I wanted the qualification. I was very used to teaching individual riders and aiming to improve the partnership, but what I didn’t have as much experience of was teaching large groups. That’s mostly what I gained out of the training for the qualification. As someone has stated above, it’s very much geared around safety and correcting riders positions. I attended a few months of teacher training sessions prior to the exam, to make sure I was teaching the ‘BHS’ way in order to pass the exam, and I will be honest, the majority of the other students (albeit most late teens- I was in my twenties) really had no idea about horses way of going. This was very evident in a lecture we had on lateral work, when I sat amongst a sea of very bored faces, while I had a fantastic chat with the lecturer about biomechanics.
I did some freelance work for a riding school as and when they needed me, for a bit of extra cash, and mostly it was what I call ‘bread and butter work’ I.e. factory lines of large lessons with a mixture of abilities on bored horses, with the occasional private lesson thrown in. One day I was given a lovely girl of about 20, on a relatively young horse belonging to the riding school. She was a decent rider and the horse was really quite smart, albeit green. She’d ridden it for a few weeks and told me she liked it but was frustrated because she felt that it was falling in and out and no amount of leg was sorting it. I observed them in the warm up and was able to spot the problem pretty quickly- horse was bulging onto the left shoulder, hindleg not coming through as a result, hence pretty crooked. I explained to the rider what was happening and why just putting more leg on strongly wasn’t working. I told her how we would begin to correct it.
At the end of the lesson she told me that in all her years of riding, no-one had every explained how the horse should feel underneath her, other than ‘forwards and bending around her leg around corners’ and she had never considered how simple changes to her position at certain times could make such a significant difference.
I never taught her again, was was a real shame. That was the type of lesson I enjoyed giving.
I gave up the riding school work not long after that. Mass lessons just wasn’t my thing. But I’m glad I have the qualification.
I did some freelance work for a riding school as and when they needed me, for a bit of extra cash, and mostly it was what I call ‘bread and butter work’ I.e. factory lines of large lessons with a mixture of abilities on bored horses, with the occasional private lesson thrown in. One day I was given a lovely girl of about 20, on a relatively young horse belonging to the riding school. She was a decent rider and the horse was really quite smart, albeit green. She’d ridden it for a few weeks and told me she liked it but was frustrated because she felt that it was falling in and out and no amount of leg was sorting it. I observed them in the warm up and was able to spot the problem pretty quickly- horse was bulging onto the left shoulder, hindleg not coming through as a result, hence pretty crooked. I explained to the rider what was happening and why just putting more leg on strongly wasn’t working. I told her how we would begin to correct it.
At the end of the lesson she told me that in all her years of riding, no-one had every explained how the horse should feel underneath her, other than ‘forwards and bending around her leg around corners’ and she had never considered how simple changes to her position at certain times could make such a significant difference.
I never taught her again, was was a real shame. That was the type of lesson I enjoyed giving.
I gave up the riding school work not long after that. Mass lessons just wasn’t my thing. But I’m glad I have the qualification.
flying_high
Well-Known Member
That's very kind of you
Please to hear your horse is showing signs of improvement - it's probably going to be a long, slow and (let's face it) a bit of a boring process, but it'll all be worth it in the end!
QUOTE]
Yes that would be great! And yes, think is a long hard slog, especially rehabbing in this weather. But hoping pays off, and I think rehabbing does force us to learn new skills, understanding and tools which hopefully help prevent future injuries.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Many many moons ago I did my AI I trained as a working pupil on busy mixed yard and at a prestigious training centre .
When I left I could teach the position well to all types of riders .
I knew how to train and how to structure sessions .
I had developed an interest in training horses with their physical development in mind .
It was a perfect base for me to develop myself from ,structured disciplined training that really did set me up .
I still can teach position I am hard wired to watch riders with that in mind .
And that that ethos of structure and discipline and hard graft has helped me through life .
Like scats I have a pupil I can remember from forty years ago .
When I left I could teach the position well to all types of riders .
I knew how to train and how to structure sessions .
I had developed an interest in training horses with their physical development in mind .
It was a perfect base for me to develop myself from ,structured disciplined training that really did set me up .
I still can teach position I am hard wired to watch riders with that in mind .
And that that ethos of structure and discipline and hard graft has helped me through life .
Like scats I have a pupil I can remember from forty years ago .