Totally gutted about horse - neuro?

Birker2020

Birker2020

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Sorry for long post. I am totally gutted. I had my physio look at my horse last night after he bit me doing up his girth last week which was totally out of character for him. Riding him lately has been a mixed bag, sometimes he’ll put in a few lame strides after being perfectly sound, but then seconds later again he is sound again, or other times for days at a time he is totally sound both in the school and whilst out hacking. None of us can see anything by watching on the ground on the lunge or whilst ridden, his steps are equal, he tracks up, swings his bum, etc. Last week he went on a fun ride, he’d walked, trotted, cantered and jumped small jumps, felt great (for him) and was totally sound and then all of a sudden I felt like he’d picked up a stone so got off and couldn’t see anything. He then went through a period of about thirty minutes where he was fine and then at the end of the ride I trotted him towards my partner and he was nodding again. Then I got off him, washed him down and lunged him on the grass on the end of my lead rope in front of my partner and friend (pretty tight circle) and none of us could detect any abnormal steps whatsoever. I’ve filmed him on my phone until I am blue in the face and can’t see anything wrong, he is sound on the road when walking and trotting and sound uphill and downhill, when trotting his head isn't nodding. Sunday I did a bit with him in anticipation of the physio the following day so I could show her how he was (half hour in well cushioned field, walk, trot, canter, trotting very small jumps) felt great totally sound. After I trotted him up the drive way - sound. Ten mins later trotted him on the driveway so partner could show physio film on my phone and he was nodding again.

The physio believes that it’s possibly a reoccurrence of the calcification within the suspensory branch ligament from an injury about four years ago that is sporadically catching and causing a type of mechanical lameness (this is in line with what the vet has suggested years ago).

I also mentioned that I’d noticed my horse had rested one foot on top of the other (off hind on near hind) a few weeks ago and there had been other things that had drawn me to the conclusion that he could have a neuro problem. Having had a horse diagnosed and PTS at the age of ten with CVM, I have always been mindful of this happening to my current horse.

We took him in the school and placed his off fore onto his near fore and he did move it after a couple of seconds but then she asked me to place his front foot laterally so it was a wide and unnatural position and he left it there for minutes whilst we were discussing him, a totally unnatural stance and possibly indicative of a neuro problem. We did a sway test, and he was unsteady and went off course quite a lot, she repeated on the other rein and the same result. She has noticed previously that whilst I walked him in a tight circle for her there was abnormal hind limb movement too, swinging the leg out.

I have him booked in later this month with my practice for a neuro assessment. I am really upset – I can’t believe that this has happened to another of my horses. I've contacted my insurance company for clarification on excess and exclusions and the lady said she could see no reason why I couldn't claim as it would be neck related.

He is no where at the stage my previous horse was, he is not unsteady on his feet or whilst ridden, she has said to continue to ride him and get a lameness workup/neuro test done so he is booked in for later this month on my return from holiday. He will be rested over the week I am away and I will take him to the clinic so he can spend the morning there. I assume if they agree with the physio's findings then will xray the neck and reach a diagnosis. The physio thinks it could be arthritis in the neck, some changes going on but doesn't know for sure, obviously none of us will know without xrays being carried out.

One of my last memories of Rommy was him scrabbling around the floor at Phillip Leverhulme Hospital, Liverpool having been pulled off his feet by some incompetent horse transporter people whilst unloading. He was unable to get up due to the lack of co-ordination in his legs and because he was so ataxic and cut his legs to ribbons in front of the consultant. I am dreading that my horse will end up like that, I need to get a diagnosis so I can make a decision either way.

Hopefully with a steroid injection and other intervention he will be sorted but I feel so upset and keep welling up at the thought of going through this again, and of course feel upset for Bailey too who appears totally oblivious to the problem.
 
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No advice, though have seen this with a friend's horse and obviously you have prior experience. But couldn't leave the thread without expressing my sympathy. Try not to get yourself tied up in knots until you have been to the vets, it may not be what you fear and equally, as you say, it might be quite manageable.

Obviously you are upset, but Bailey won't have any clue, and whatever happens, he isn't going to have a horrible experience like your other horse because it sounds like you are in control this time.
 
milliepops said:
No advice, though have seen this with a friend's horse and obviously you have prior experience. But couldn't leave the thread without expressing my sympathy. Try not to get yourself tied up in knots until you have been to the vets, it may not be what you fear and equally, as you say, it might be quite manageable.

Obviously you are upset, but Bailey won't have any clue, and whatever happens, he isn't going to have a horrible experience like your other horse because it sounds like you are in control this time.
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Thank you so very much for your kind words. I am in tears now replying to this, all I've done all day is well up. I guess deep down I suspected there was a problem for a few weeks, but was possibly in denial. I've pulled on his tail practically every month and done foot placement tests since I've had him watching carefully for neuro signs as I've been so paranoid after Rommy and he's never showed any response but then I've never walked him and pulled on his tail which it appears gives a totally different response. Over these three or so weeks when he has been a bit 'strange' I've put it down to this, or that, or the other and now its been confirmed (as much as it can be at this stage) its all a bit of a shock. I can't wait to finish work and go and see him and give him a big kiss on his lovely soft nose and tell him I love him.
 
of course it's a shock. It's only natural when you care about something. I have my fingers crossed for you that it will have a happy outcome.
If not, it's the unkind fact of owning horses, that almost all of us will reach the point where we can't properly fix them. I know where you are at the moment, I'm on borrowed time with one of mine just hoping and praying that this isn't the end, and like you I have been through the ups and downs of injuries, rehabs and bruised hopes.

Don't lose hope yet, it could be nothing much. You're prepared, deep down, which is important - nothing worse than people blustering on in willful ignorance. In the meantime enjoy his cuddles and try not to fret. He doesn't know there's anything wrong so he will be quite happy to scoff carrots and have a quiet time for now.
 
I have come to the conclusion that owning horses is emotionally grueling .
There's nothing you can do except meeting trouble head on and doing the very best you can .
 
Try not to jump to any conclusions until you know a bit more as it will all need piecing together. F swings the hind leg with the annular ligament issue, he did this before too and told the vet as such but having seen him welsh trot up the field the other day I do think it is worse, definitely not neuro in cause though.
Absolutely agree with GS, the hardest bit IMO is working out what the very best you can is having grappled with that recently.

Deep breath, as you said he seems oblivious to any issue so is as happy as ever and wait until you can come up with a plan. I hate not having a plan and having to wait on stuff like that, things seem much easier once I have one I can instigate, even if it is just waiting for a few more weeks under instruction from the vet not myself.
 
You have my sympathy too, applecart. I do hope it will be a good diagnosis and outcome for you and your boy. I appreciate it must be terribly upsetting for you at the moment, especially as you've sadly already had first hand experience of this but try to stay positive and enjoy what you have meanwhile. Let us know how it goes at the vet, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you both.
 
thank you Ester and Chllipup.

I thought I would the assessment over with after my holiday as the physio says there is no immediate rush. Plus I thought if he needs a steroid injection and has to stay in for 48 hours it will mostly be over the weekend when I am around to 'entertain' him although my vets have recently suggested that latest research suggests there is no laminitis risk with steroids so this will be interesting to see what they say on this subject if one is necessary.

He's had a good life and I've done much with him although spent almost as much time off with one thing and another too! We've both had a ball and if all there is left is hacking or even retirement then I at least I can take comfort in the knowledge that I have done everything I can and as long as he is happy that's enough for anyone.
 
Sending big hugs. With it nearly a year to the day that I had my 9yo boy PTS with wobblers I know how raw that feeling is when the vet suggests neuro issues. It did make me smile that you too do regular hoof placement tests with your horse too; my new horse is subject to these tests on a regular basis. I personally would never wish a horse with neuro problems on anybody, and am so sorry that you have to go through it possibly twice, what horrible luck. I cross everything that you have a positive outcome and it turns out to be something else.
 
celticdiamond said:
Sending big hugs. With it nearly a year to the day that I had my 9yo boy PTS with wobblers I know how raw that feeling is when the vet suggests neuro issues. It did make me smile that you too do regular hoof placement tests with your horse too; my new horse is subject to these tests on a regular basis. I personally would never wish a horse with neuro problems on anybody, and am so sorry that you have to go through it possibly twice, what horrible luck. I cross everything that you have a positive outcome and it turns out to be something else.
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The Sylv007 - Thank you that is kind of you to say. Trying to stay positive as I don't want to be upset in front of him.

Celtic Diamond - how did your horse develop it and how was it diagnosed? Did he get it through neck trauma, 9 years is quite late to develop it unless its a result of neck trauma. I am so sorry you lost your horse, its a horrid thing to have to witness, when they are staggering around without any clue where to place their feet. Yes - I've done countless hoof placement and tail sway test (only whilst stationary) on him over the years - poor horse wonders what the hell is going on!

Went for a lovely hack yesterday after work for about an hour and he was sound in walk and trot and managed to negotiate a hill downwards without issue and seems happy in himself. Often when we come to an upwards hill he will 'burst' into trot, and he takes me by surprise and I end up getting left behind, he did this twice last night as I normally walk him on a long rein (hacking by us is so very quiet!) He's certainly not struggling under saddle at this stage which I am grateful for but looking back his canter in the school has been more bouncy lately although not to the extreme Rommy's was where it would throw you out of the saddle with the typical bunny hopping. Did you have that issue with your Wobblers horse?

So, so far symptoms are muscle atrophy, positive sway test, tightness in the area of the hips (typical in wobblers) and foot placement issues. I will do test three the fly switch test tonight - this video is amazing for information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QDeskJRbQ4
I did another front foot placement test last night and again he was happy to stand very base wide without moving the foot back, I tried his back feet but he moved them straight back again. He also has muscle atrophy on his quarters which is quite pronounced - another reason I had the physio. And we also noticed during the physio visit that he drags the near side hind toe when he goes from trot to walk and sometimes from halt to walk which is quite pronounced, but then he also has spavin so its hard to know if its related to that or not. He does the same on the other side also and has started clipping his toes a bit more on the road in trot - again may be spavin.
 
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applecart14 said:
Celtic Diamond - how did your horse develop it and how was it diagnosed? Did he get it through neck trauma, 9 years is quite late to develop it unless its a result of neck trauma. I am so sorry you lost your horse, its a horrid thing to have to witness, when they are staggering around without any clue where to place their feet. Yes - I've done countless hoof placement and tail sway test (only whilst stationary) on him over the years - poor horse wonders what the hell is going on!
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The vet wasn't sure what caused it, as it was an atypical case. He developed it slowly over the first 6 months I had him (but nothing showed up on the 5 stage vetting). He originally went to Leahurst for scans on his suspensories as he was diagnosed with PSD which the vet thinks could have been secondary to the wobblers. He was confirmed as neuro-deficient with cervical facet joint arthritis at Leahurst and I brought him home, but the second x-rays in September 2015 showed significant worsening. This was in line with the deterioration in his co-ordination and increased wobbliness. You could leave one foot on front of another and he didn't have a clue poor boy. It was originally hind legs affected but at second x-ray his walk had altered and his front co-ordination was deteriorating.

applecart14 said:
He's certainly not struggling under saddle at this stage which I am grateful for but looking back his canter in the school has been more bouncy lately although not to the extreme Rommy's was where it would throw you out of the saddle with the typical bunny hopping. Did you have that issue with your Wobblers horse?
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Interestingly he was a very well bred holsteiner, by Colman (same sire as Robert Whitakers Catwalk) and had a very bouncy trot and canter, which in hind-sight did bounce me out of the saddle in canter. He struggled prior to diagnosis to do successful transitions into canter and would run into it, not smooth like before.

applecart14 said:
So, so far symptoms are muscle atrophy, positive sway test, tightness in the area of the hips (typical in wobblers) and foot placement issues. And we also noticed during the physio visit that he drags the near side hind toe when he goes from trot to walk and sometimes from halt to walk which is quite pronounced, but then he also has spavin so its hard to know if its related to that or not. He does the same on the other side also and has started clipping his toes a bit more on the road in trot - again may be spavin.
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Mine had muscle atrophy in the end, especially at the rump, and a very sore back from keeping himself upright. He too dragged his hind toes which is what got the vet out in the first place, but again that could have been the PSD or wobblers. Fingers crossed again for you.
 
As others have said, take a deep breath and do what you can to not jump to scary conclusions before you actually have answers.

What you've been through before will give you a bias towards thinking the worst and that's totally understandable, but be kind to yourself.

Fingers crossed you'll get solid answers soon from which you can at least know where to go.
 
_GG_ said:
As others have said, take a deep breath and do what you can to not jump to scary conclusions before you actually have answers.

What you've been through before will give you a bias towards thinking the worst and that's totally understandable, but be kind to yourself.

Fingers crossed you'll get solid answers soon from which you can at least know where to go.
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I know. Trying not to jump to conclusions as the hind end weakness evident on the sway test could be due to the spavin but then doesn't really explain the abnormal foot placement. Thanks for your comments GG.
 
celticdiamond said:
The vet wasn't sure what caused it, as it was an atypical case. He developed it slowly over the first 6 months I had him (but nothing showed up on the 5 stage vetting). He originally went to Leahurst for scans on his suspensories as he was diagnosed with PSD which the vet thinks could have been secondary to the wobblers. He was confirmed as neuro-deficient with cervical facet joint arthritis at Leahurst and I brought him home, but the second x-rays in September 2015 showed significant worsening. This was in line with the deterioration in his co-ordination and increased wobbliness. You could leave one foot on front of another and he didn't have a clue poor boy. It was originally hind legs affected but at second x-ray his walk had altered and his front co-ordination was deteriorating.



Interestingly he was a very well bred holsteiner, by Colman (same sire as Robert Whitakers Catwalk) and had a very bouncy trot and canter, which in hind-sight did bounce me out of the saddle in canter. He struggled prior to diagnosis to do successful transitions into canter and would run into it, not smooth like before.



Mine had muscle atrophy in the end, especially at the rump, and a very sore back from keeping himself upright. He too dragged his hind toes which is what got the vet out in the first place, but again that could have been the PSD or wobblers. Fingers crossed again for you.
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So interesting that your horse was similar to my previous horse in a lot of ways. His were CV3, 4 and 6 which were severe and the death knoll so to speak was the C6 as this is very hard to treat surgically., apparently once that's involved its usually bad news, or at least that was my interpretation from speaking to the consultant. Obviously I wouldn't even go down that line with my present horse due to his age but Rommy was still young at the time.

His other symptoms bunny hop canter, rubbing back heels together, jumping a jump with the front but dragging the hinds through on rare occasion, very, very strong through neck, would bob head up and down, twitching of front legs and almost a difficulty in getting the leg knee to lock (assumed at the time to be due to his slightly back at the knee confirmation), extremely tickilish round belly and hind end, amazing high lifting elevated front leg trot, and bolted with me once on hack. In canter if you stopped, reined back and cantered from halt the problem rectified itself, otherwise he would do a bunny hop canter and concertina his whole body from front to back.

Will see what the 22nd September brings us when Bailey has his assessment at the clinic. Have opted to use a different vet this time, for a fresh pair of eyes as my own vet has been with the horse for 12 years and it would be interesting to see what someone without any knowledge of the horse (historically) thinks.

Total nightmare, just found out today the yard where I am at has now received an offer on the sale of their property, so I could really do without a yard move and having to sort out a potential new home as well! :eek:
 
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That's bad luck about the yard .
It's not easy to move a horse in your sort of situation as it can cause all sorts of sutle changes in the horse
I hope you find a new place that suits .
 
I know we have not always seen eye to eye on the management of your horse. I have never suggested you PTS as some people have but I have always stated that a quieter life is needed for him, especially as he does seem quite delicate. But you do have my sympathy, honestly. Hopefully you will have a better idea once he has been properly assessed and then you can decide next steps. As someone who has a delicate horse, I know how hard the day to day management of these horses can be and its just a never ending cycling of happiness and misery all rolled into one. Horses ? Who'd have them eh ?
 
KautoStar1 said:
I know we have not always seen eye to eye on the management of your horse. I have never suggested you PTS as some people have but I have always stated that a quieter life is needed for him, especially as he does seem quite delicate. But you do have my sympathy, honestly. Hopefully you will have a better idea once he has been properly assessed and then you can decide next steps. As someone who has a delicate horse, I know how hard the day to day management of these horses can be and its just a never ending cycling of happiness and misery all rolled into one. Horses ? Who'd have them eh ?
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Thanks KS. I just want a diagnosis. Did a fifth neuro test on him last night, (fly switch test) and he proved to have normal reflexes on neck and sides, but no reflexes on quarters which is strange.
 
Didn't want to read and run.

I have no advice for you . . . but you have my thoughts and support.

As _GG_ said, try not to jump to too many conclusions. It's perfectly natural to focus on neurological issues, given your experience with Rommy . . . but it "could" be other things too.

Bailey doesn't know what's going on - as far as he's concerned he's still loved, fed, has friends, etc. Oh, and it's OK for you to be upset around him - he doesn't "need" you to be strong "for" him - he doesn't know that there's anything particularly wrong. If you need to cry into his mane, go right ahead. Let him comfort you, if you need it.

Do one thing at a time . . . try to follow the diagnoses where they lead you rather than jumping ahead. Hard, I know.

Thinking of you. Please update as and when you can.

P
 
I am sorry to hear about the problems you are having. If it is any consolation, from your response on the other current thread re communicators, I do see that even if he does have some neuro signs, he may well have that extra time in retirement as was predicted.

My horse is a wobbler, but still has some light hacking. It is one day at a time, but I am still thrilled to have him. I know, as you do, that the outcome is unknown, but I know you love Bailey, and will cherish any quality time you have together. I know your other horse had a horrible, quick decline, but not all horses experience it the same, so I hope Bailey has the retirement you would wish for him, whatever his diagnosis turns out to be.

I watched the video you quoted, and I can see loads of things relevant to Jay, I especially resonate with suspected hock, stifle and SI issues, as well as PSD.

I know with Jay I would not swap him for the world, and, like with you, he has seen me through some turbulent times. Sometimes horses are more than conveyances for us, and touch us, as it seems that Bailey has done for you.
 
Stop doing tests on him! You will only upset yourself. Wait until his work up and let the professionals do all the testing. Masses of luck.
 
Thank you everyone.

My physio has said to continue with his riding activities as he is not showing any signs of problems under saddle so I rode him again last night, in his GP and not the dressage saddle whose girth he reacted to previously. This time I rode in the school, walk, trot and a very small amount of canter and could detect no lameness whatsoever, the only thing I have noticed of note is that he occasionally shakes his head up and down really quickly as if he has a fly about him but I did see flying insects around so it is probably due to this. In fact he went very well and I was pleased with him. His canter does feel more bouncy than it used to but this is only when I first start to canter and typical with a stiff arthritic horse who has been in the stable for ten hours. He soon loosens up and his stride begins to open up. Its more bouncy than previously but I can honestly say it does not have the same 'flinging you out of the saddle feeling' that my wobbler horse gave me when he cantered. I did more foot placement tests after riding and when deliberately placed base wide, he is happy to stand there oblivious. I know what you are saying Michen about testing but I feel it is sensible to be able to give some feedback to the vet. I know they will do their own tests but my wobbler horse was very intermittent in his symptoms and reactions. For example he was SJ up to Discovery level only four weeks before he was PTS and you would never have known he was a wobbler. Of course we had no idea he had this or we wouldn't have risked it. One day he would be fine to ride, the next day he would look like George Best after a night on the town.

The night the physio visited me (Monday) I didn't pooh pick his paddock as it was getting dark but quickly turned him out after she had seen him, so left pooh picking until the next day when I immediately noticed there had been lots of gouges and skid marks in the grass. The YO said all the horses had them in their paddocks and this had been spotted when she had turned out on Monday evening so they had been done the night before (Sunday night). I wonder if this is why he had shown up as lame when the physio watched him on the lunge, I must admit I was very surprised as he had not been at all lame the day before when I had gone for a long hack. But if that were the case I would have expected him to feel dreadful last night and there is no way I am missing what it as it is very obvious when he isn't right as he nods quite obviously.
 
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Hi applecart, I'm sorry to hear of the worry you are going through. It isn't the same situation at all but last summer I was convinced my horse had some sort of neurological problem. He would head shake, his face screamed pain, he would freak out if his head was touched, had massive forehead muscles, would panic at the smallest noise or movement, had panic attacks in his field, riding was downright dangerous, vets did neuro tests and he was okay on the tail pull but a bit slow on the foot placement tests. He has slow menace reflex and other tests I can't remember. My lovely kind friendly horse was attacking other horses in the field. I was convinced he had a brain tumour and vets told me not to ride til we did a head CT on him, which we did a year ago today. All was normal which almost upset me even more as no-one could tell me what was wrong with my beautiful horse. I thought I'd have to have him out to sleep he was so bad.

Fast forward to now and my beautiful horse is better than he has ever been. He did the Burghley sponsored ride last week (photos to come I hope!) with a smile on his face and without putting a hoof out of line (except in front of the official photographer where he had a yeeha moment!). He is moving beautifully, hacking calmly without trying to kill me and is bright and cheerful and he is great friends with his field buddies again.

I know your situation won't be the same as mine, but I think my point is to try to wait on panicking until you know what's going on for certain, it may not be what you think. I hope it all works out for you.
 
My horse used to place one hind foot on top of the other; she had severe bilateral PSD. The "bunny hop" canter is also indicative of PSD.
However, until the vet has had a good look, you won't know what you're up against. I hope you find some answers.
 
I'm sorry Applecart - I know it's easier said than done and I'd totally ignore my own advice but try not to worry. You won't know any more until the 22nd.

D was diagnosed with wobblers in 2010 at the age of 18, following a trauma on the yard where he slipped and fell into a wall at a bad angle. He already had arthritic changes in his legs, and now C6 and C7 were also compromised. We've not had the easiest run of it as you know, but we had a couple of months of really good hacking earlier this year before he permanently retired and I'm extremely grateful for that.
 
I may be totally off track but a vet thought my horse might have wobblers because she was very weak on the tail pull test and on tight turns he felt she didn't know quite where she was putting her feet. It actually turned out that she had hind gut ulcers and was treated for 4 months with Ranitidine. Each week she was on the drug she was able to pull against me more when I did the tail pull test. She also dragged the toes on both hind legs (having pain from ulcers for a long time basically gave her backache which caused the toe dragging). I only mention hind gut ulcers to you in relation to your horse because you also said he was girthy which is another classic ulcer sign. I also know that many horses with ulcers develop suspensory ligament problems because their action behind changes in an effort to ease the constant ulcer pain. They usually do not like to step under especially with the right hind as the right side is where the hind gut lies. You have far more experience than me with neurological problems but if you have any doubts that it is neurological then you may want to consider hind gut ulcers.
 
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