Totilas - circus show?

I think this will always happen - "normal people" just have to ignore it! I have seen it happen in show jumping as well.

No I cannot imagine Manky (love it
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) allowing any of her horses to free walk anywhere but Edward Gal (sp sorry) was her working pupil I believe so if that is true I am surprise Totilas can do it either.
 
Do you remember the time we were at a very low key local stressage and the woman that won was heard to say she was doing PSG with the horse next week but justified it by saying she hadn't been out for a while, and she didn't have the grace to go HC either.
 
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I've given up with stressage for the time being for all the reasons you have mentioned. I will prob go back in the winter. I'm just fed up with it.
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I really enjoy it but am sticking with Trailblazers as it's at least *supposed* to be for amatuers like me.
 
My dressage instructor raved about Ed Gals Kur at Hickstead - so I watched it on UTube but was really disappointed -I thought the horses neck looked like it was compressed and the nose was often behind the vertical - I hoped to see a difference at the Euros but it was the same.

I will discuss it with her when I next see her. I'm really starting to get put off dressage which I used to love I just don't know what is right anymore
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Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.

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How come? I'd have thought this would have been done to build the muscles up over his back to be able to swing like he does, to allow him to then brought up into a more advanced outline. Plus like you say about his walk on a long rein, he shows definite stretch in that.

Found this on another forum by a spectator..

Edward riding Totilas was simply superb. I watched most of the warm ups and he was just super through this. Started off low and soft, looked quite "average" and small to start with. Worked in softly and easily and then was brought more up ready for the test. Boy thats a superb horse with super riding.
 
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Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.

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How come? I'd have thought this would have been done to build the muscles up over his back to be able to swing like he does, to allow him to then brought up into a more advanced outline. Plus like you say about his walk on a long rein, he shows definite stretch in that.

Found this on another forum by a spectator..

Edward riding Totilas was simply superb. I watched most of the warm ups and he was just super through this. Started off low and soft, looked quite "average" and small to start with. Worked in softly and easily and then was brought more up ready for the test. Boy thats a superb horse with super riding.

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I imagine this was true but Edward Gal does ride them in Rollkur there are plenty of videos about showing him riding in this terrible way, yes I thought the test on Totilas looked fairly free with not much sign of Rollkur, but this horse I think was probably bred to such an extent that it made everything easy for Edward he was probably born swinging over his back. There is a training video of him riding this horse very strongly and very overbent with chin on chest, and don't forget how many years he was a pupil of Anky. Maybe in this warm up he didn't need to ride this way, but you can bet he does at home!
 
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My dressage instructor raved about Ed Gals Kur at Hickstead - so I watched it on UTube but was really disappointed -I thought the horses neck looked like it was compressed and the nose was often behind the vertical - I hoped to see a difference at the Euros but it was the same.

I will discuss it with her when I next see her. I'm really starting to get put off dressage which I used to love I just don't know what is right anymore
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When Gal and Totilas won something big a few months ago (can't remember where it was, i think it was indoor though) i showed it to my trainer - classical, German, old-school, very horse-centric and he was APPALLED and wryly amused by it.
i didn't dare post his reaction on here at the time, tbh. but he said the corners were totally incorrect, the horse wasn't using itself through them, that the front legs were a total circus trick and very incorrect. he didn't rate it at all...
 
I've only recently taken an interest in Dressage, and I watched the Freestyle on Saturday night. I must start by saying I know absolutely naff all about Dressage...

I was mesmerised by all the horses tbh. I did think Totalis's movement reminded of the Spanish riding horses more than a traditional dressage horse.... I suppose you could call it a bit circus-like...

I watched that youtube link someone posted near the beginning of this thread and.. wow... what a difference in style.

Sorry.. nothing constructive to say.. or any real opinion.. but interesting thread!
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When Gal and Totilas won something big a few months ago (can't remember where it was, i think it was indoor though) i showed it to my trainer - classical, German, old-school, very horse-centric and he was APPALLED and wryly amused by it.
i didn't dare post his reaction on here at the time, tbh. but he said the corners were totally incorrect, the horse wasn't using itself through them, that the front legs were a total circus trick and very incorrect. he didn't rate it at all...

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I won't tell you what my Classical instructor thinks of Manky then! Suffice to say she's used the words "abuse" more than once...
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Interestingly, though she doesn't compete them and they aren't flashy like Totilas, all of her schoolmasters can perform half pass, piaffe and passage *correctly*. She even thinks my big IDx will be ready to start piaffe this time next year, yet this horse wouldn't score well at BD because he isn't flashy enough...
 
Really interesting debate - lay awake thinking about it last night! I keep watching the record breaking test, then having a look at Torilas earlier stuff (from last year) and that of other dressage horses. In this most recent test, I struggle to tell when he is in 'normal' trot and when he is in passage - it's almost like he never comes out of passage. In the earlier tests, he seems to have a much more normal trot. I don't know the merits of this, but wonder how it's judged? Do you not get better marks for having more distinction between the two? Also his extended trot looks almost like Spanish trot rather than a 'normal' extension - watching other horses extend they seem to lengthen through their spine more and their hind legs extend backwards further, so they become altogether much longer - how is this judged? Has anyone read Phillipe Karl's 'Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage' - I was thinking of buying either it or the Tug of War book someone mentioned above - any opinions/ reviews?!
 
Yes, I've read Philippe Karls book - actually I'm readng it atm, and recommend it highly. Something I think every aspiring dressage rider should read. Same with Tug of War. I would also recommend the book by Anya Beran - that is truly excellent, and her DVD, Elegant Dressage Training, is definitely worth owning.

I don't rate Totilas or his way of working at all. I neither aspire to ride like that, nor to work my horses like that. Quite the opposite - a lot of what I see there is the exact opposite of what I want to be doing.
 
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Really interesting debate - lay awake thinking about it last night! I keep watching the record breaking test, then having a look at Torilas earlier stuff (from last year) and that of other dressage horses. In this most recent test, I struggle to tell when he is in 'normal' trot and when he is in passage - it's almost like he never comes out of passage. In the earlier tests, he seems to have a much more normal trot. I don't know the merits of this, but wonder how it's judged? Do you not get better marks for having more distinction between the two? Also his extended trot looks almost like Spanish trot rather than a 'normal' extension - watching other horses extend they seem to lengthen through their spine more and their hind legs extend backwards further, so they become altogether much longer - how is this judged? Has anyone read Phillipe Karl's 'Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage' - I was thinking of buying either it or the Tug of War book someone mentioned above - any opinions/ reviews?!

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Yes, both of the books are brilliant, do read them, they are really good, Philippe Karl is a real master. Also his set of 4 DVD's are superb, to watch this man at work is amazing!
 
There's an interesting thread on the EE forum ATM talking about how that sort of passagey trot is highly undesirable and used to be heavily marked down by judges, but now seems to be fashionable and desirable.

I haven't read the PK book, though it's on my list, but have got Tug of War and I would thoroughly recommend it. I'm a scientist and it appeals to me because it tells me why, in a physiological and biomechanical way, rollkur / hyperflexion is so bad for the horse.
 
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Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.

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How come? I'd have thought this would have been done to build the muscles up over his back to be able to swing like he does, to allow him to then brought up into a more advanced outline. Plus like you say about his walk on a long rein, he shows definite stretch in that.

Found this on another forum by a spectator..

Edward riding Totilas was simply superb. I watched most of the warm ups and he was just super through this. Started off low and soft, looked quite "average" and small to start with. Worked in softly and easily and then was brought more up ready for the test. Boy thats a superb horse with super riding.

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I imagine this was true but Edward Gal does ride them in Rollkur there are plenty of videos about showing him riding in this terrible way, yes I thought the test on Totilas looked fairly free with not much sign of Rollkur, but this horse I think was probably bred to such an extent that it made everything easy for Edward he was probably born swinging over his back. There is a training video of him riding this horse very strongly and very overbent with chin on chest, and don't forget how many years he was a pupil of Anky. Maybe in this warm up he didn't need to ride this way, but you can bet he does at home!

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Looks like he does use rollkur as the evidence suggests (which I don't like), but was just challenging the comment about Tortilas never being worked long and low.
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Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.

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How come? I'd have thought this would have been done to build the muscles up over his back to be able to swing like he does, to allow him to then brought up into a more advanced outline. Plus like you say about his walk on a long rein, he shows definite stretch in that.

Found this on another forum by a spectator..

Edward riding Totilas was simply superb. I watched most of the warm ups and he was just super through this. Started off low and soft, looked quite "average" and small to start with. Worked in softly and easily and then was brought more up ready for the test. Boy thats a superb horse with super riding.

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I imagine this was true but Edward Gal does ride them in Rollkur there are plenty of videos about showing him riding in this terrible way, yes I thought the test on Totilas looked fairly free with not much sign of Rollkur, but this horse I think was probably bred to such an extent that it made everything easy for Edward he was probably born swinging over his back. There is a training video of him riding this horse very strongly and very overbent with chin on chest, and don't forget how many years he was a pupil of Anky. Maybe in this warm up he didn't need to ride this way, but you can bet he does at home!

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Looks like he does use rollkur as the evidence suggests (which I don't like), but was just challenging the comment about Tortilas never being worked long and low.
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Yes I understand what you are saying, he obviously has been worked long and low, you can see that on some of the training videos.
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