Totilas - circus show?

"The difference with the deformed show dogs is that they are not able to perform the job that they were originally bred for and are physically useless"

The deformed dogs are operated on, medicated, or dead. So are the horses. How many already - and how many more in the future if more horses are bred to beat Tortilas's world record 10 scores, as they now will be.

I am referring to selection for genetic traits, not inbreeding though I have no doubt that goes on too. The reason that the continentals have beaten the pants off us for decades is because they breed so carefully, sponsored by tax-payers money.

That's why the Dutch horses have such extreme movement, they have been picking mares and sires with extreme movement, mating them, keeping the best, picking out the most extreme and breeding something even more extreme.

Hackneys were bred the same way and weights are used to get even "better" movement. It's not what I was discussing but I think the extreme of Hackney action is wrong too.

"Why can't we just see and enjoy" - because we "just saw and enjoyed" our way to Arabs whose faces are frankly disgustingly deformed and dogs condemned to a life of pain. These dressage horses seem to me to be going exactly the same way.
 
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Totilas is such a horse. He is not a freak and whether or not you like his movement, this horse is brilliant.

If his breeding was that of a hackney cross with a high knee action, would he be considered a freak then? No so why is his action coming into question now.
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I don't know the answer to your question and frankly, I don't care what if... I'm not saying his a freak, I'm saying I don't like his trot very much. I admire the effortless transitions and absolute ease he performs, the beautiful canter with round stride and ability to extend naturally.
 
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I think his canter is fantastic and uphill, the extended canter is so controlled yet oozes contained energy. And I think the same of the half passes, very uphill, free through the shoulders and showing a lot of suppleness. For me, it is the trot that is more open to debate than anything else.

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I'm with you on the canter. I'm not a huge fan of Totilas - and I've seen the Youtube videos of him being trained in hyperflexion so I'm also not a fan of the means that were used to get to that end - but I do think his canter is lovely. I agree that he looks effortless, and I think his extended trot is horrid.

Much as I'm sure he has great presence in the arena and he does make it look easy, I personally can't put aside the image in my head of the video of him in training/clinic. I also agree with the OP about where the breeding seems to be going.

But what do I know... I haven't ridden at that level, or even above Novice, so I'm sure I'm not qualified or allowed to have an opinion on this subject
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(BTW, last comment not aimed at the user whose post I quoted but generally)
 
Not qualified to comment, far from it - "out of the mouths of babes", "The Emporer's clothes" etc
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My husband, who does not ride but sees horses all the time saw the video and said "that's not natural". I agree with him. I love watching it though because I know how difficult it is to do and what a fabulous horse Tortilas is.
 
I didn't actually say this horse was inbred, I said it was going the way of inbred show dogs, who are a more serious matter altogether. But I did have a quick look at his pedigree, and yes, he is inbred (of course, what warmblood or TB isn't). On his dam's side, he has 2 crosses of Farn. ie his dam's great grandam is by Farn as is her grandsire. Or in layman speak Totilas's dams's grandsire is also the father of her great grandam.

On his sire's side, he is 5 x2 inbred to Ibikus. His sire's maternal grandsire is Ibikus as is one of his great great grandsires.

So both his sire and dam are really quite inbred. This of course means breeders can concentrate on the traits they want to reproduce, but it also has dangers that undesirable traits will also be reproduced. So maybe not at the stage of congenital defects as in some show dogs yet but what about in a few generations time?

Anyway, I looked at the Dutch Gold clip as well and I honestly preferred his version of dressage. It looked much more free moving, natural for a horse to do and elegant.

I think the OP thinks a bit like me - dressage is becoming a bit too focussed on extreme movement for the sake of show and flashieness, so yes, a bit like a circus horse.
 
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Maybe that is why we have taken so long as a nation to get somewhere in dressage. Too quick to criticise and rest on our laurels instead of looking to those nations that are good at it and learning from their training methods and breeding policies

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You want to talk about training methods? Would you be happy to see GB horses worked in this way:

Edward Gal / Gribaldi

Hyperflexion

Hyperflexion 2

If this is how their horses are trained then I would prefer we were rubbish at dressage. Someone tell me at what point the end is enough to justify those means of achieving it?

If I had the money for a really top class horse, I can tell you now it wouldn't be going to anyone in the dressage world. I'd choose someone like Sylvia Loch anyday.
 
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"Why can't we just see and enjoy" - because we "just saw and enjoyed" our way to Arabs whose faces are frankly disgustingly deformed and dogs condemned to a life of pain. These dressage horses seem to me to be going exactly the same way.

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I'm also with you on the Arabs OP! I love Arabs, especially Crabbats, but some of those poor bizarre looking creatures you see in the show ring covered in grease and make up are just disgusting.
 
I think he is amazing, and tbh he reminded me of a hackney in some ways.... no one says they're unnatural or circus freaks though do they? His trot is very different and extravagant, but personally I think its stunning. Problems occur in ALL types of horses. Puppy's Believe has just been written off and she was an ordinary (well compared to Totilas) beautiful horse who was unlucky. Madhector's Jerry was written off and he had fabulous confo and she was really careful with him... horses with crap paces and confo go wrong. Horses with amazing paces and confo are more likely to go wrong as they are often competed to a higher level right?

At the end of the day, sitting on their backs is unnatural, and the pressure put on their legs from doing this, particularly over 4ft fences is huge. They aren't made to do it, which imo is one of the reasons why so many do not stay sound, but unless you are planning on giving up riding, then well, deal with it.
 
I'm sorry Coffee Bean but there is a world of difference between accepting that a proportion of horses go wrong and deliberately and painstakingly perfecting the breeding of horses who are more likely to go wrong, and that is where dressage has already got to.

Yes, I think Hackney action is unnatural. It was originally created in order for one very rich lady to say "na na na na naaa, my horse steps higher than yours does" to another very rich lady as they passed in their carriages in Rotten Row. Back in the days when they used to strap carriage horses heads right up so that everyone else would think their team was "fiery". Thankfully, you can undo a strap but we are going into things that cannot be easily undone.

Now that money is involved, and Tortilas is now worth millions, it will be impossible to stop unless we wake up and judge dressage in some other way than huge, unnatural, selectively bred/inbred paces.

I am glad to know that there are others who feel the same as me, perhaps I'm not as mad as I thought I was
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I am glad to know that there are others who feel the same as me, perhaps I'm not as mad as I thought I was
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We all need to huddle together for security, I don't think there are many of us left
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I doubt there were many people on Saturday night that weren't left a little teary eyed. I was left in awe, for a second time, which I really hadn't expected.



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Ditto and I watched it on TV
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chestnut cob- please could you post links of Totilas being trained with rollkur? I have not come across any.

Totilas is fabulous- he's not my favourite but I think he's a brilliant horse.
 
I looked at those training videos and was put off even more. How exactly do you get that movement from a horse? Even if it is bred for flashy paces. So they practice extreme rollkur and hold the horse's head in, do they stick their spurs in as well to get that bounce? I'd rather watch Dutch Gold any day. Far more elegant.
 
Well you're close enough Chestnut Cob but HH is in Scotland! Your hyperflexion stuff is revolting but now I understand why a person who trains a horse I sold was riding him in a prelim the way she was - her trainer is Anky van Grunsven.

HH in the EG one and the Anky one they are both digging them with their spurs.
 
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Well you're close enough Chestnut Cob but HH is in Scotland! Your hyperflexion stuff is revolting but now I understand why a person who trains a horse I sold was riding him in a prelim the way she was - her trainer is Anky van Grunsven.

HH in the EG one and the Anky one they are both digging them with their spurs.

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HH, yes the use their spurs as well.

I had a few lessons with someone who trains with "a top rider" (won't name names but PM me if you want to know) about 18 months ago. All she ever wanted me to ask of the horse was "deeper, rounder, more forward, faster, spurs, deeper, head down more, no more..." etc.
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A lot of the bounce is inbred, especially in the Dutch ones. They drop out of their mothers doing it, and lateral work is just inbuilt. The rest is the training to "hold" the suspension to create that extreme movement. I have one with a lot of it, but like I said, he's a headcase!!
 
Breeding for excessively flashy paces is a dangerous road to go down, IMO. Examples have already been given of where these things lead. Dressage should be about more than just an (Un)Naturally flashy trot...
 
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Well you're close enough Chestnut Cob but HH is in Scotland! Your hyperflexion stuff is revolting but now I understand why a person who trains a horse I sold was riding him in a prelim the way she was - her trainer is Anky van Grunsven.

HH in the EG one and the Anky one they are both digging them with their spurs.

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Yes, I say this because I have a big black part warmblood mare who is often mistaken for being a "dressage horse" because of her looks - the only time we ventured into a dressage test, we won, and I'm convinced that was because she looked the part, rather than the content. Anyway, I am almost embarrassed to say this, but I do ride her with a spur because although she looks good, she is deceptively not forward going. She would rather bounce around on the spot, barely moving, or doing flying changes. I know I can get her to canter on the spot with her head stuck into her chest just by sticking my spurs in. And I don't do it. Its horrible, vile and ghastly. Yes, it looks flashy. And I think I know how they train their horses and what Meneer Gal is saying with little adjustements and keeping the horses head fixed. Oh yes, and a little sop to kindness by saying how important it is to allow the horse to stretch out at the end of the session so all his fans are impressed.

Remember too, most Dutch horses are kept in 24/7 and not hacked. Its a different way of keeping horses. I don't think they have much of a life.
 
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Practical use??? You want him to be able to pull a cart then??

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Oh you know, those things that people have traditionally done with horses. Such as hunting. Hacking. Jumping. Anything not in an arena on an aritificial surface.

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Hhhmmm... traditional?
Do you know how old the tradition of dressage is?
I don't know where you're coming from with this angle?
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I must say - I have never seen a canter extend and collect so correctly - in that the horse didn't go faster (as most do when they power across in extended canter) but merely stretched his frame - It was magical to watch!

In regards to the OPs thoughts... I know what you mean... especially in relation to show dogs and breeding for a purpose - it's worrying - but how can this be prevented?
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(and it doesn't just happen in dressage it happens in all equestrian spheres... look how the racehorse deteriorates quickly
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Kate x
Kate x
 
I don't really have a problem with spurs per se. I have to ride my big IDxTB in spurs sometimes, though am slowly getting to a point where I need them less and less. The problem with spurs is using them constantly then fixing the horse's head so it *can't* go forwards properly.
 
What worried me was how "odd" he actually looks when being ridden on a loose rein - perhaps it was the angle of the camera but he looked like one of those steroid pumped up muscle men - tight taught musculature all around the angle of his head and jaw - just doesn't look right to me - but I am not professing to be an expert!
 
Taken to the extreme, nothing we do with horses is natural. Once you domesticate a horse, you alter it. Every so often a horse comes along (or a person, or any animal really) with exceptional abilities, and it produces a world beating and awe inspiring performance. I saw something really beautiful and something to be proud of, and am saddened but not surprised to read some of the comments in this thread. Dressage means schooling; why not save your concerns for horses who are made to jump great heights and land with all their weight on their front feet? Or horses who are made to gallop round a track and jump? Sheesh, let's just leave them all to graze. Yes, this was an extreme performance, but you could see the horse was relaxed. At this level, all dressage is extreme. Doesn't mean it is necessarily a bad thing though.

Is this horse genetically engineered, and if so, what does that actually mean? It is not the same as selectively bred, which is the problem with show dogs. That, and the inbreeding. But that is for the sake of appearance; you cannot predictably breed for ability.
 
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Oh you know, those things that people have traditionally done with horses. Such as hunting. Hacking. Jumping. Anything not in an arena on an aritificial surface.

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Hhhmmm... traditional?
Do you know how old the tradition of dressage is?
I don't know where you're coming from with this angle?
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Yes, I do, H's Mum. I wouldn't really have thought the word "traditional" was that confusing! But in this context, let us take it to mean past styles of dressage which were not so flashy before the fashion for over-collection took over.
 
I watched and thought he was generally wonderful. I did dislike the front action as the hind did not match it, particularly in extension and i considered that hyperflexion had probably been used to achieve that typical exaggerated action. These are the things i do not agree with, however they happen throughout the higher levels and are not to do with breeding.

The fact is, that horse did a fantastic precise test and completed the movements very well.

Dressage is not pointless at all, the whole point of it is to have a very fit very well muscled, strong horse who is strong enough to perform very high level movements. Do you think the spanish riding school use overbred, unhealthy, deformed horses who go lame from the stress? No, they do things properly and those horses are doing higher level movements than those Grand Prix horses could dream of and they're doing it into their 30's and staying sound. And they have done for years.

And like these high level dressage horses they are bred for performance, to be good at a JOB which to them is dressage. The basic building blocks give them the best advantage and then training builds the skills and strength needed. The same process is undertaken for eventers and jumpers who have just as bad, if not worse reputations for going lame or insane through being overjumped.

Now the show arena is where the job and performance is forgotten, and looks become the be-all and end-all to the detriment of the horses health. That to me is the only area to compare with deformed show dogs, because it's the only area where the horse can get away with not being in top condition, top fitness and well put together fit to work.
 
I think the OP has a fair point. Not a criticism of Totilas as an individual but a perspective on the breeding that created him. And the problem is by no means confined to Warmbloods/ dressage horses.

Whatever the use of the horse, be it TB's, warmbloods, show ponies, for every superstar there will be a large number that do not make the grade for whatever reason. These horses still need to be suitable for something, be it children's ponies, happy hackers or RC horses.

The more we breed into horses extremes like fiery temperaments (look at welsh sec A's and D's - would you want to ride some of them?), poor conformation (TB feet anyone?) and extremely extravagant action, the greater the wastage rate we produce.

I would definitely say that there are certain sectors of the horse breeding world that need to take 10 steps back from their superstars and look at the bigger picture.
 
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
 
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