Totilas - circus show?

Personally I think there is huge 'waste' in the warmblood industry. So many horses don't make the grade as comp horses. They don't really make the grade at a lower level either as they 'can' be too hot and difficult for the average riding club level rider. Even for the experienced rider there is lots of rehab. Many are aggrophobic. They have quite literally never been outside in living memory - EVER! They live in barns as youngsters, stables once backed and work in indoor schools. Lucky ones may have been turned out with mum before weaning. Horses brought up like this find being turned out is very traumatic and many are never able to be hacked or ridden outwit a menage. They often have serious mental health probs in relation to being ridden. Van't be hacked but can't be ridden in a school either as they just don't want to 'do' dressage. Spend their time on their hind legs or running backwards. Not fun horses to ride on the whole.

There are lots of horses like these. I consider them a waste.
 
To my impartial (but admittedly not competition savvy) eye, it seems that dressage riding/breeding is beginning to go along (for example) the show dog show/breeding path, in that a certain supposedly "correct" end result is required without long term concerns about how it is achieved.

Look at how big dressage horses are now. Hardly anything seems to be under 17hh and the general build is so much heavier. That video clip of Dutch Gold that was posted earlier makes him look like a TB in comparison. How many of these big warmbloods break down at a relatively early age? They are late maturing horses which often don't get the chance to finish growing before being put under pressure, so yes, they may be stunning at the time but how long do they stay that way? What problems are being created for later?

As warmbloods become more and more developed for their paces, does this mean that basic structural soundness will be compromised? For example, TBs are known for generally having crap feet - this is because they are a man-made breed, rather than a breed which has evolved naturally. Are dressage warmbloods going to become generalised as the ones which break down early?

Just out of interest (genuine - I don't know the answer!), what is the average age of top GP dressage horses, and how long do they stay at the top for? These days, it is more common to hear of top SJs and eventers going on until their late teens or even early 20s, but this doesn't seem to be the case in dressage?
 
I don't think it's pissing on parades, there is a justified debate about what is required of a dressage horse, how it is achieved, and what problems are being stored up for the future because of it.

For example, someone I know has a lovely WB youngster, which is already 17.2hh at 4 years old. Due to various circumstances, someone else rides and competes the horse for him. It has done a few 4yo classes and a couple of prelims. I went to watch a couple of the 4yo classes, and thought that the way of going required to win was too much for horses of this age. In order to win, it seems that the high head carriage/short neck outline and flashy paces are already the name of the game, and if you are producing your youngster slowly and correctly (ie, going forwards into a longer outline at this stage), don't even bother to enter age classes.

Also, the rider of this particular horse is already doing half-passes and canter pirouettes with him - which is what her trainer apparantly also does with her youngsters. Surely this is too much for a big young horse who is still growing? Is this the norm now?
 
Great thread. I don't know what I really think about Totilas. There is something truly magical about him but I hate the fact rolkur is used on him and that front end action is more like a hackney pony. But I keep going back to the fact that watching him is almost hypnotic and I too was mightly impressed at how chilled out he was the moment his test ended and he walked out of the arena. He's a contradiction in every way.

I don't know anything about WB breeding being into arabs but wastage and breeding to extremes is all too familiar. The arab breed is splitting in two - the in-hand show arabs on one side and the performance arabs on the other. The in-hand arabs are bred only to look extreme (extreme dished face, extreme swan like neck, extreme action) with no thought or idea of them ever being ridden. In fact there are some extreme type arabs out there that you'd struggle to find anywhere to put a saddle. For the breed that are the original war horses, bred over centuries to carry human beings for hundreds of miles it's a crime.

Fashion talks and so does money. The Totilas type of WB is the fashion at the moment - god knows how much he's worth (£10 mill perhaps?). So more and more people will try to breed that type until it falls out of fashion to be replaced by something else. I doubt that theres anything anyone can do to change things sadly.
 
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I just get the impression that that some people thrive off pissing on parades.

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Equally one could say that some people accept everything they are told without any curiosity or question!
 
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The Totilas type of WB is the fashion at the moment

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So true. Especially in light of the last horse that was in the Kur. A real old fashioned type of WB - almost to the point of looking corse.......
 
I sincerely hope it's not the norm. Should only be doing the basic movements, and only started in a couple of classes to get used to going to shows at such a young age. I've mentioned on another thread that Totilas is slightly overbent in my opinion and how much nicer it is to see him after the test when he can stretch his neck and move beautifully.

Similarly of course 4 & 5 year-old jumpers should not be going against the clock or going to many shows.
 
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He isn't crocked though, he's sound and competing - make the comment if he does have to retire due to the problems you mentioned.

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Thankyou for your advice, but I'll make whatever comments I see fit
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I never suggested he was crocked. I would like to know how many nine year olds who were bred like him have been though. It's not HIM. I LOVE him. It's the wastage rate to get a him that we should be worrying about.

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Wasn't attacking you, would be interested to know too, just haven't heard of any evidence....
 
Most of what needs to be said on this issue has already been discussed at length on this thread...but just want to add that I like the comment someone made about many modern dressage horses looking a bit like steroid-injected body-builders.
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It's a difficult one, but concerns of "collateral damage" (breeding-wise) aside, for me the tipping-point comes when the means become the end, as it were: it's no longer beautiful, but extreme for extremity's sake...it can still elicit a gasp, but somehow, the art is gone...the closest analogy I can think of is a pianist playing scales for the sake of being the fastest at playing scales, rather than to enable him to perform the music.

Also interesting, the comment about too much focus on outline at prelim/novice. Does this contribute in any way to people competing year after year after year in the same prelim tests---collecting ribbons without moving up---or some judges saying that "ponies (or cobs) shouldn't do dressage"?
 
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I just get the impression that that some people thrive off pissing on parades.

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No I think you are wrong, many many people including me are very against the way dressage is going and Rollkur is appalling and should be banned and riders seen doing it at warm ups should be banned or fined in my opinion. Thank god we british don't practice this way of doing things, and I hope we will never sink to this level.

The best rider to listen to IMO is Phillipe Karl, have read all his books and watched all his DVD's he gives talks about the terrible effects of all this on the horse, with Dr Gerd Hauschmann and he is actively trying to get the big dressage bods to ban this kind of riding (if you can call it that). For me they should not be allowed to compete they are not talented riders, they are bullies. All these riders including the women have huge muscles on their arms where they pull constantly at their horses and boot them the other end with spurs.
A good rider in dressage does not need huge muscles. I cannot watch it anymore, I used to love dressage but not now.

All of you who really want to do something about it go onto Phillipe Karl's website and sign his petition to get this kind of riding banned, he has more than 10,000 signatures and it's rising (apologies to all those who already have done this).

My heart breaks when I see this and Anky is cruel beyond belief, it must be very difficult for our top riders to have to warm up with them and see how they treat their horses, please all our riders don't ever sink to that level.
 
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Practical use??? You want him to be able to pull a cart then??

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Actually KWPN were bred from carriage and draft horses. They were bred from the Gelderlander and Groningen horses, among others.
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And a surprising amount of grand prix level dressage horses are reschooled to compete in driving trials
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Just out of interest (genuine - I don't know the answer!), what is the average age of top GP dressage horses, and how long do they stay at the top for? These days, it is more common to hear of top SJs and eventers going on until their late teens or even early 20s, but this doesn't seem to be the case in dressage?

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Hi Sav - they're usually in their teens when they hit their peak and generally can stay at the top for quite some time. I would expect a horse on a standard "career path" to be htting the top at perhaps 13?
 
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I just get the impression that that some people thrive off pissing on parades.

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It isn't about pi££ing on parades. This thread hasn't been just a load of people slagging off the horse, it has actually been a very interesting and reasoned debate by people on both sides of the fence. I've learnt an awful lot from this thread and IMHO it's a debate that we *need* to have. It isn't about slating this particular horse, it's just that he provokes debate about how his movement is achieved (training, breeding, or what?) and where the future of dressage is going.

If you have something constructive to add, I'd be really interested to hear it?
 
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Also interesting, the comment about too much focus on outline at prelim/novice. Does this contribute in any way to people competing year after year after year in the same prelim tests---collecting ribbons without moving up---or some judges saying that "ponies (or cobs) shouldn't do dressage"?

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Spookypony, I think you're right about this issue. I think that the ribbons in dressage, even at Prelim level (with people going to top trainers purely to help them crack the 70% barrier at Prelim, when that level should be for people who are new to it), have become the end. In fact I always thought that competitive dressage should really be a way to mark your horse's progress up through the levels?
 
That's an interesting point CC. In so many ways i'm looking forward to getting lukey to the point at which he's ready to compete, but is there going to be much point if i'm going to be up against those kinds of people?
 
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That's an interesting point CC. In so many ways i'm looking forward to getting lukey to the point at which he's ready to compete, but is there going to be much point if i'm going to be up against those kinds of people?

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I have been well and truly put off affiliating to BD by a few people (on here actually) who just keep going round the same Prelims, doing the odd Novice but not too many as they don't want to get too many points so that they can't do Prelim. I'm doing Trailblazers this year and hoping to get qualified but won't be bothering to affiliate to BD. You've probably seen pics of my boy on Facebook - he has no chance at even BD Prelim compared to some of the big moving flashy WBs on here who train with top people so there's no point. I get really frustrated when I read CR posts from riders complaining that they *only* got 70% in their Prelim and that they aren't moving on until they're tweaked this, and improved this, etc etc. Surely that is totally against the spirit of competitive dressage? It's nice to get ribbons but I do it because it's interesting to have an objective eye cast over me and my horse.

But maybe I'm reading too much into it!
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Yes, i'd kill to 'only' get 70%
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I know what you mean about it being unsporting. It's really disheartening to come up against pot hunters, but I guess you get that in all disciplines. It's long been a dream of mine to compete and be competitive at BD, but i'm already wondering if to bother or not. x
 
Don't be put off.

My daughter has a very nice but not bred for dressage horse. He is a TB so not typical.
Until he was injured he did BD as he hated eventing (his "proper job").

She qualified for prelim and novice regionals with an "ordinary" trainer and an ordinary horse.

We loved it when people laughed at us and looked down their noses(yes some do). My favourite was the very rude girl and her mum in their matching jackets, flash lorry and even flashier warmblood who laughed at my daughters novice tests as she did RISING TROT Gasp!!!! The horse was more relaxed in rising trot and had just come into work after lameness issues.

She scored 70% in each class and won both which were qualifiers. The girl and her mum were shocked that their horse came behind ours
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There are judges out there who judge well and do not expect anything other than suppleness and obedience and an accurate test at this level. My daugher always got comments on her sympathetic riding.
Sorry proud mummy post!!
Do do BD it can be really good and there are some nice people there.
 
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Don't be put off.

My daughter has a very nice but not bred for dressage horse. He is a TB so not typical.
Until he was injured he did BD as he hated eventing (his "proper job").

She qualified for prelim and novice regionals with an "ordinary" trainer and an ordinary horse.

We loved it when people laughed at us and looked down their noses(yes some do). My favourite was the very rude girl and her mum in their matching jackets, flash lorry and even flashier warmblood who laughed at my daughters novice tests as she did RISING TROT Gasp!!!! The horse was more relaxed in rising trot and had just come into work after lameness issues.

She scored 70% in each class and won both which were qualifiers. The girl and her mum were shocked that their horse came behind ours
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There are judges out there who judge well and do not expect anything other than suppleness and obedience and an accurate test at this level. My daugher always got comments on her sympathetic riding.
Sorry proud mummy post!!
Do do BD it can be really good and there are some nice people there.

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I take your point (and well done to your daughter
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I bet it was even more satisfying with those people watching!!) but then I go into CR and see people saying that their horse's half pass in canter isn't quite right powerful enough so they don't feel they can move up to Novice yet... WTF??!!! If my horse could do half pass in canter, I wouldn't be pootling around at Prelim and pot hunting!!

Anyhoo, I am getting the original post off track so will stop ranting about how hard done to I am now
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Well our instructor advised that if you want to do well at prelim work at novice level at home ... and so on.
Judges are not supposed to look for an advanced outline or huge movement at these levels - as someone else said it should reflect the levels of training.
In a way it isn't really off post as it is back to ideas about correct training and movement. I for one am not convinced that Totilas has either - but still amazing to watch!
 
if you want to avoid pot hunters, BD is the answer. You will also get consistent judging.

I know of someone who cheerfully cleared up at all the local unaffiliateds (novice and elementary) with a horse that had competed successfully at BD regionals (novice). Obviously she wouldn't have been able to pull this with BD.
 
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Judges are not supposed to look for an advanced outline or huge movement at these levels - as someone else said it should reflect the levels of training.
In a way it isn't really off post as it is back to ideas about correct training and movement.

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I go to a Classical instructor and she said to me recently that, whilst there's a lot wrong with BD, the one thing they do get right is the longer outline they *expect* at Prelim and Novice, though what judges mark for may be something entirely different...
 
Yes this is true and on the whole is rewarded - which is how we beat the flashy warmblood!
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Not everyone pot hunts either and they do make it difficulty to pot hunt long term.
Do "go for it" there are some lovely people at these shows as well as the inevitable stuck up people.

Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.
 
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Back on the subject I am not convinced Totilas has ever been worked long and low.

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No, I somehow doubt it as well. It was interesting to see though that he did walk out nicely on a loose rein as he left the arena, unlike Salinero (Manky, as Skewby called her, was on Salinero wasn't she?) who went out passaging on a very short rein and apparently subsequently had to be do the prize giving on a lead rein!

The horse is a complete enigma. On one hand I hate the way he moves and is worked, yet when given the rein, he takes the opportunity to stretch and looks like any "normal" horse. Could you imagine Salinero being given the opportunity to stretch..Anky would go into orbit!!
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It isn't even one person for me. I see it out and about too. I went to unaffil dressage recently, just Prelim and Novice. There was a lady in the class who has points at BD Novice but she was competing in the unaffil P7 class "because the horse can be tricky". In the end, she won the class by about 15% so decided to go HC, but surely that goes totally against the spirit of it if you decide *after* you've seen your score to go HC? Because it meant that if the horse had had a paddy, the rest of us "novices" were competing against a horse with points that is capable of winning an affiliated test (which it does). Hopefully that makes sense and you understand what I'm trying to get at? Horses have naughty days and off days but surely you can't base whether you go HC in a tiny local unaffil on how your horse goes? I guess I'd have been more annoyed if she hadn't decided, after her test, to go HC though....
 
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