Totilas even has special shoes?!

FrodoBeutlin said:
just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!).
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But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
 
and that's why I like this forum, we have people with experience of far off climes and what actually goes on there which can put a whole different slant on things :) and teaches me stuff I otherwise wouldn't know.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
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Bizarre but also very sad.

Have they never seen photos/pictures of horses out in fields grazing? Or galloping across a meadow? Or have they never seen films? Surely it can't be that much of an alien concept.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!
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Yep! I know some people like that (also very big fans of Totilas' "new owner" ;)). One of them won't even let kids/horses go hacking as it's too risky for the horses.

Another will concede that hacking is good for competition horses but only because of the varied terrain and the advantages of "working" on different terrains for musculation and balance.

BUT, there are also plenty of people here who don't think like that.

OH says it's cruel to keep a horse out in field all the time with no work to occupy it's brain - but hey, I bet that'll be a popular theory on here :D
 
AshTay said:
Bizarre but also very sad.

Have they never seen photos/pictures of horses out in fields grazing? Or galloping across a meadow? Or have they never seen films? Surely it can't be that much of an alien concept.
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No, definitely not dressage horses. Not horses which cost £500k to 1 million and are competing internationally.

Retired dressage horses, maybe.

(To be fair, I have never seen pictures of Olympic-level dressage horses grazing in a field either. The only one I have heard of was Escapado, the exception that proves the rule!)
 
I read this thread really interested in Totilas' shoes, which I had noticed on the pictures! But no one seems to want to discuss them :(

Why is he in heartbars? His feet looked normal when I saw him in the flesh at Windsor. I'd be interested to hear a farrier's take on this.

Regarding turnout: I'm very luck - my dressage horse who is working at PSG and starting to school Grand Prix work has been living out 24/7 for a few weeks now, and will do so at least until the weather deteriorates. He is fed twice a day and hayed in the field, and is out in a group, unbooted. His musculature is noticably better now than when he was in 24/7 due to the snow and wet in the winter. Which does he prefer? Well, he likes to be out when the weather is nice, and he has been known to refuse to leave his stable in the winter when it is miserable. So, I let him do what he wants. But he's no Totilas. And he is the first competition horse I've ever had who was safe to leave outside like that, although he does freak out if left alone in the field. Each to his own.
 
Saucisson said:
One of them won't even let kids/horses go hacking as it's too risky for the horses.
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Oh my, I forgot about that -- I spent a while at the yard of a renowned Olympic rider who also thought hacking was too risky. I remember having a huge fight -- I am an adult, and the horse I am riding is my own horse, how can I not be allowed to go on a hack if I want? It was crazy. There was no turnout there either (obviously!!!) but I had managed to solve that problem by renting a field off a neighbouring farmer.

I lasted three months on that yard! :p
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
In fact I have been trying for a while to find scientific papers which PROVE that turnout is beneficial (in terms of health) and therefore it is actually more dangerous to stable horses rather than turning them out, just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!), but they are not easy to find.

The only thing which comes close is a paper at the last Global Dressage Forum which recommended some turnout for dressage horses but as far as I know it did not quote any scientific papers, it was more of a "common sense" approach so to speak. (Disclaimer: I was not there so not sure if my information is correct, it's what I've picked up reading articles about it on the internet).
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I'm not going to get into the rights or wrongs of turnout, but from an academic point of view I imagine the reason you're finding it hard to find many/any papers on this is because they probably don't exist. Realistically, who would fund research on that subject? A welfare group might, I suppose, but they will have bigger problems to look at than this if funding is a priority. A shame, as it would be nice to have some proper research done on this topic rather than anecdotal evidence!

Also, and this is a genuine question, there was a post waaaaay back about how turnout means the 'wrong' muscles develop (irrespective of the ethics/potential mental benefits of turnout). If this is the case and I haven't completely misunderstood this, think about why human athletes cross train in other disciplines - along with other reasons, to prevent wear and tear and injury through overuse of certain muscles that are involved in the core discipline. Does the same not apply to horses? What is the shelf-life on these dressage horses - are they still competing at 16+?
 
fadedv said:
Also, and this is a genuine question, there was a post waaaaay back about how turnout means the 'wrong' muscles develop (irrespective of the ethics/potential mental benefits of turnout). If this is the case and I haven't completely misunderstood this, think about why human athletes cross train in other disciplines - along with other reasons, to prevent wear and tear and injury through overuse of certain muscles that are involved in the core discipline. Does the same not apply to horses? What is the shelf-life on these dressage horses - are they still competing at 16+?
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Well, I guess this is the interesting point, because these horses do still compete at 16 and beyond.

Another former Olympic rider I used to know was also against turnout for competition horses and her Olympic mount was still competing at the Olympics (!!!!) when he was 21. I think he was the oldest horse competing at such a high level. He died at the age of 33. And there are plenty of examples like this, so yes, lack of turnout definitely does not seem to affect longevity of career!
 
Impaction colics are associated with lack of grass - the rates of them usually go up when horses are eating hay and not grass. At least this is what my vetty sister said. And it makes complete sense if you think about it too.

The thing is that moving around is good for some things like arthritis, but most of these horses will be getting that from walker machine etc as a substitute so would be hard to tell if turnout made a difference I think? Dunno but if you find any answers to your research FB would be interesting.

Personally I like to turn mine out. But I am fed up with the people who equate 24/7 turnout with a happy horse. Mine loves to go out, but after a couple of hours he wants to come in again, especially if its cold and wet. He would hate to live out far more than he would hate to have no turnout at all. In my view you make the decision depending on the horse and your own circumstances.

Horses are amazingly adaptable too. I have dragged mine around the planet. As chavhorse says you do what is normal for where you are. Having grown up in denmark and then lived in the UK from 5- 19 he has spent the last 2 years living in the desert with an hour of sand paddock turnout 6 days a week and none during ramadan (too hot and weird working hours because of fasting), aircon for four months of the year when its really hot and humid. He gets in hand grass a few times a week from the ornamental gardeny bits (when noone is looking :D) . Mostly he eats competition mix and racehorse hay. He is perfectly happy. he is 21 and looks 16. He is coming home this summer and no doubt he will adjust to the colder temperature and going out in a field pretty quick too. Though he will probably be a bit annoyed at the lack of palm trees with dates on as he is pretty obsessed with eating dates (he spits the stones out too - clever chap!). However, doubtless someone will tell me how cruel I am.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
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This - Believe me it took me nearly a year to find a yard that was not a 2 hour drive away that offered any sort of turn out of more than an hour in a sand paddock if at all (apparently Dutch horses do not like turnout and only wait to come in again anyway so why bother!). I have to say I was totally shocked upon moving to Holland and finding that the majority of horses are kept in 24/7 end of...."hacking why would I do that its a dressage horse"

I am lucky that I have managed to find somewhere that does turn out all year round and allows herd turn out rather than individual it is really really unusual here. But it sure as hell is not a dressage yard if I had wanted to keep that up I would have had to put up with the restrictions available in those yards.

As Frodo has said above they think the Brits are weird and cruel for turning out all the time and turn out 24/7 in winter even on my yard this would be a real step too far, In winter everything is in by 16:00 in warm blankets, and if it rains they do not go out at all (risk of lightening strike!).

It will never change they think they are right and we are wrong and vice versa.and have been doing it like this for years.

Oh note for the poster who said that in hotter climes sand paddocks were fine as you could feed hay or hayledge.....can I just say that in Cyprus no such thing existed, hay was not grown, we fed Straw for bulk and all calorie and vitamin needs in hard feed, this was for all horses even those in high level competition.
 
imr said:
Horses are amazingly adaptable too. I have dragged mine around the planet. As chavhorse says you do what is normal for where you are. Having grown up in denmark and then lived in the UK from 5- 19 he has spent the last 2 years living in the desert with an hour of sand paddock turnout 6 days a week and none during ramadan (too hot and weird working hours because of fasting), aircon for four months of the year when its really hot and humid. He gets in hand grass a few times a week from the ornamental gardeny bits (when noone is looking :D) . Mostly he eats competition mix and racehorse hay. He is perfectly happy. he is 21 and looks 16. He is coming home this summer and no doubt he will adjust to the colder temperature and going out in a field pretty quick too. Though he will probably be a bit annoyed at the lack of palm trees with dates on as he is pretty obsessed with eating dates (he spits the stones out too - clever chap!). However, doubtless someone will tell me how cruel I am.
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Nope I will not call you cruel at all having experience of taking on an 8 year old OTTB, who lived with me in Cyprus in a sand paddock 24/7 with access to a bamboo sun shelter, ate a diet of hard feed and straw only, hacked out on rugged terrain for 3 hours a day and in all the time I owned him the only time we ever saw a vet was once a year for the jabs.

He is now 17 still going strong and still only seeing the vet once year for his jabs.

Mine loved dates as well and figs when they were in season I wonder if this and the sun is the answer
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Well, I guess this is the interesting point, because these horses do still compete at 16 and beyond.

Another former Olympic rider I used to know was also against turnout for competition horses and her Olympic mount was still competing at the Olympics (!!!!) when he was 21. I think he was the oldest horse competing at such a high level. He died at the age of 33. And there are plenty of examples like this, so yes, lack of turnout definitely does not seem to affect longevity of career!
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That is interesting! So what do they do, if anything, in terms of 'cross training'? Is it just the case that the level of the work is varied?
 
On the subject of ulcers, it is not lack of grazing per se that causes them, it is lack of fibre. The reason so many racehorses have them is because they are not fed massive amounts of hay, the same applies to showjumpers etc, as hay in the belly affects performance. Not saying I agree with it, it is just fact.

Interestingly, as many as 67% of leisure horses suffer from gastric ulcers.

I get what NM is trying to say as I feel the same way, I, personally like my horses to be out as much as possible, but we have to accept that because of the vast sums of money involved, owners of competition horses are loathe to turn out. Having had one horse break a leg and another damage a suspensory ligament from accidents in the field, I can, kind of, understand this.

UK horses are lucky in that they live in a culture which turns out their horses, on the continent it is very different and when these horses are imported, time has to be taken in introducing them to turn out.

As for Totilas, he receives the best of care and I would rather see a horse treated like him than see one abandoned to starve in a field.
 
There are plenty of racehorses whon win the derby without turnout, so you cannot say that a few exceptional cases disproves the evidence that turnout is in fact better for horses and there are many areas of evidence to prove this, if nature itself is not proof enough.

Now when these horses are retired and they cannot be turned out safely what happens to the horse then, or is that not important while you are making money and winning medals?
 
fadedv said:
That is interesting! So what do they do, if anything, in terms of 'cross training'? Is it just the case that the level of the work is varied?
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Yes, I think that's it, some days you will work more intensely, some other days you will just do supplying work..... and you would work on the basics most days anyway (it's not like you practise diagonals of one tempis every day...or again, you wouldn't do proper pirouettes -- most of the time you'd do large working pirouettes, etc)
 
Wanders in with a low drooping tail...wonders how grown women and men(?) can't keep a very interesting debate, factual, unbiased and without rudeness....and wanders out.
 
I think some of this discussion comes down to peoples definition of "the best of care" and other similar expressions. Some feel that unless the horse's mental well-being is catered for, it doesn't matter how carefully their body is looked after, they are not having "the best of care".
This argument will go on forever. Those who feel that the end justifies the means and that a valuable horse does not have the right to proper turnout and interaction with companions, and those who feel that is a fundamental part of good horse care for the vast majority of horses... will always be at loggerheads.
All I would suggest is that, if the hooves are a result of "nurture", then the horse can't be getting the best of care. That's another one that we'll never agree on either, and it can't be proved either way.
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Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?
 
YorksG said:
Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?
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Again, I agree, hence my previous comment of larger welfare issues than lack of turnout for Totilas.

Other competition horses, in the main , are sold on as 'schoolmasters', although I am sure that some of these end up in less than ideal circumstances too.
 
So...............................................................................................................................................................................................why does Totilas have special shoes?????
 
options:

1) they look prettier and take attention away from that god awful bridle
2) the farrier forgot the normal ones so had to make do
3) he has feet or soundness issues that we can speculate on for hours

I am kinda betting that hho will go for the later option :D
 
YorksG said:
Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?
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Yes, I think this is the crux of the matter. I tried to say before that perhaps we have an attitude of horses being 'disposable' tools and in a way forget they are living beings and all our practices have an impact on them... I don't think we should seperate what is natural for horses so far from them, surely it's bound to have consequences for their whole bodies and mental health.
Wearing heart bar shoes is I believe a sign that the hooves are needing more support than they were in the past... if they don't 'fix it' then what next in the shoe line? If he is getting the best of care that is in his true best interests then why is there an apparent deterioration in his hoof health, evidenced by his transition to heart bar shoes? :confused: I don't believe heart bars are ever used as a statement of 'this is a great horse' are they? :confused:

Mta... I believe racehorses who don't make the grade go on the open market or to slaughter? I would imagine a similar scenario with other 'competion' horses. The trouble with the open market is that these horses have had a very 'controlled' and limited life expereince so unless someone aware that they need to re start them buys them they can end up on that dreadful misunderstood treadmill of human expectations not matching what a horse has learned and the horse is the one who suffers.
 
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Hear bars are used mainly to help with laminitis recovery (surely unlikely in Totilas????), to help with corns, contracted heels and most likely, flat feet where the frog requires extra support. Totilas does have big dinner plate feet, so perhaps in changing management when he moved from Edward's to PS's place, maybe his feet were allowed to get too flat - all it takes is one wrong shoeing cycle, and mistakes can be made.

Odd, still.

I've seen a lot of dressage horses recently with eggbars on behind, which is supposed to help support the hind limb structures in weightbearing, especially in canter pirouettes. Not QUITE sure how this works, but it seems to be a bit of a fashion.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
In my (anectodal) experience no, not really. I have known some horses with ulcers but not sure the lack of turnout was to blame for that -- they were horses competing at a very high level (international), travelling a lot most weekends etc. so horses prone to gastric ulcers irrespective of turnout or lack of it.

In fact I have been trying for a while to find scientific papers which PROVE that turnout is beneficial (in terms of health) and therefore it is actually more dangerous to stable horses rather than turning them out, just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!), but they are not easy to find.

The only thing which comes close is a paper at the last Global Dressage Forum which recommended some turnout for dressage horses but as far as I know it did not quote any scientific papers, it was more of a "common sense" approach so to speak. (Disclaimer: I was not there so not sure if my information is correct, it's what I've picked up reading articles about it on the internet).
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Very interesting! Thanks :) Shame there doesn't seem to be any research available on the effects of turnout, I bet it would make very interesting reading.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
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Fascinating how different the view on turnout is on the continent! This is the main reason why I argue in favour of letting people do as they please with their horses without criticising, so long as the horses are happy and healthy. One person's 'right' is another's 'wrong'.
 
amymay said:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that a horse mooching around in a field for an hour or two (or heaven forbid longer), using it's muscles in a natural way is detrimental??

There are a few odd things in this thread - but this caps it. Sorry.
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Totally agree, it's stupid. Turning out is a time of relaxation...?
 
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