Totilas even has special shoes?!

Nocturnal said:
Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?
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I don't like to see any animal caged, especially birds! But it's not really a good comparison because the sizes of cages these animals are most often kept in are relatively large for the animal compared to the size of a stable to a horse. When I think about it - my horse stood in his stable is equivalent to me being confined to our small outdoor toilet. The hamster I used to keep had a rotastak cage and for a similar comparison it would be like me being confined to a large-ish 5 bedroom house.

Most pet rabbits and guinea pigs get a very bad deal in my opinion.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
No TGM, I admit I exaggerated a little -- I shouldn't have gone as far as saying people were advocating that, but there have definitely been threads in AAD where a poster said their dog was crated all day and night because they were at work at night, and only let out once early in the morning, once at midday (both quick toilet breaks) and then for an hour or so at night, and that definitely did not cause the kind of uproar that Totilas' lifestyle has caused on here ;)
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I expect that News Lounge has a higher number of readers and posters than AAD, so uproar is far more likely!
 
Nocturnal said:
Interesting, thanks. So you feel that its because they're working animals that they need chillout time, and they get that best by being turned out? Is it the freedom to run/buck/roll etc, or the interaction with other horses that is most important, do you think?
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All of it, there is also the fact that all the horses systems benefit from being turned out. :)
 
Going back to the shoes for a moment :)

1) heavy shoes are used to increase dressage horses leg lift and a heart bar is the heaviest shoe you can get. Lots of dressage horses wear them, often on the back (which would be very unusual in a riding horse).

2) I'm a barefooter but if a horse of mine was shod I would choose heart bars because the frog is bearing weight if they are replaced often enough and it is actually the closest you can get to the way the foot is meant to work while still having a shoe on.

He may be wearing heart bars for either or both of these reasons.
 
Nocturnal said:
Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?
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AshTay said:
it's not really a good comparison because the sizes of cages these animals are most often kept in are relatively large for the animal compared to the size of a stable to a horse.
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First of all, what AshTray says ;) and then I think if people must keep small animals, I much prefer to see them in big cages/runs/tanks, with plenty of suitable mental and physical stimulation (e.g. enough bedding to burrow in and toilet tubes/multi layers to explore) and company where appropriate. Fish in a cramped bare tank which is constantly lit up is a major peeve of mine! ;)

Its a bit like putting Totilas in a stable which was the size of a good indoor school, with a patch of dirt to roll in, different surfaces to scratch on, mirrors, things to walk on/under, and various other things to explore, maybe a ball which dispenses food to push around and other tactile stimulus. Obviously being a stallion I think we have to put aside the company thing, but then again being able to see other horses would/will be a compromise.

If I thought he was being kept in conditions like the above, I'd be a bit happier that he didn't get turnout. Then again, if you're doing all that, what is the reason you're not turning out again?

CPTrays, to go off on even more of a tangent, (:o) I thought that heart bars are more restricting than standard shoes because they don't allow ANY expansion and contraction of the heel, whereas standard shoes are thought to allow a small amount of it? 'tis what Sarah Braithwaite said to me recently ;)
 
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Naturally said:
CPTrayes, to go off on even more of a tangent, (:o) I thought that heart bars are more restricting than standard shoes because they don't allow ANY expansion and contraction of the heel, whereas standard shoes are thought to allow a small amount of it? 'tis what Sarah Braithwaite said to me recently ;)
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Personally, I don't believe that is correct. Sarah isn't a farrier, she's a barefooter, for people who don't know the name. Heart bar shoes are attached with nails towards the toe just like any other shoe that is nailed on. There is no reason that I can see why the foot would not flex sideways at the heel just like it does on any other nailed on shoe, provided the frog is not jammed desperately tight against the shoe (it would be very difficult to fit them that tight, and it soon wouldn't be in any case, when the foot has grown for a day or two). The great advantage of them is that on flat ground they give stimulus to the frog that is not there with a standard shoe, which is precisely why they often work as remedial shoes to rebuild the heels of a horse with weak heels. For them to have that effect, I'm pretty sure that the heel must be flexing. A farrier's point on view on this might be interesting.
 
Haven't read it all so sorry if I am duplicating but during Cheltenham coverage they had some film of Garde Champetre (spelling? Sorry) turned out with some other racehorses, in winter, rolling and play fighting. He was the most expensive NH horse ever sold when he went through the sales.
Horses shoud be out at least daily for an hour.
 
Just to throw in a different parallel to provoke thought. If Joe Public visited a zoo where the Zebra (or any mammal) were kept stabled or caged except for a short period when they were taken out individually to work. Still not having a chance to bond with another animal or human. How long do you think the zoo would be allowed to continue ?
 
POLLDARK said:
Just to throw in a different parallel to provoke thought. If Joe Public visited a zoo where the Zebra (or any mammal) were kept stabled or caged except for a short period when they were taken out individually to work. Still not having a chance to bond with another animal or human. How long do you think the zoo would be allowed to continue ?
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Good parallel POLDARK. Zoos have to maintain much higher standards in space and environmental, social enrichment.
This is why I think these threads are good, people with different and opposing views discussing gets everyone thinking.
 
I delivered a little factual talk about stable "vices" a few times, to therapists who weren't particularly horsey, but who were sometimes asked to work with horses. People like Bach practitioners. Along the lines of what to look for when invited to visit a horse. A slot on Zoochosis before dealing with equines always had a stunning impact.
Funny how something can be obvious to people who don't know much about horses, but ignored by the experts. (And "professionals").
 
Good one Polldark!

What we must also keep in mind is that the vices are a symptom of an underlying issue which a change of managment can often prevent.

I remember watching a programme on the pshycological effects on a species of rodent, one group were given no stimulation whatsoever and the other group were given larger cages and toys and also interaction with others. Then comparisons were made into the behaviours of each group, can you guess the outcome!!!!!
 
Interesting - I'd love to know exactly why he wears those shoes.

Regarding the turnout debate - where injury is a concern, throughout the 28 years I have been around horses, the most frequent injuries in the field have been from those horses who only go out for part of the day, in a herd which is not stable and consistent year-round. Some of those injuries are from high-jinks, and some from disagreements which would not arise in a stable herd hierarchy. Horses who live out 24/7 in a stable herd have a more sedate, gentle lifestyle, and indeed 24/7 turnout is recommended for the gradual healing of many injuries that would not successfully heal on box-rest. Of course, the field has to be safe too...
 
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