Totilas even has special shoes?!

nikkimariet said:
Disagree. 100%.

I imagine you are a pleasure rider/amateur competitor - as am I. Yours, and mine horse(s) are worth about 10% of what a horse like Toto is. The risk of injury is too great in relation to what is required of him. Edward Gal reported that when turned out Toto went absolutely beserk therefore heightening the likelihood of injury. Toto has enough variety in his work to keep his body and mind active - he does not act or look like a horse that is mentally ill and whose welfare has been compromised.

No. You wouldn't ever keep a horse on box rest unnecessarily, because it is your pet. Toto is a money maker, not somebodys precious little boy who can go and do whatever he wants. I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.

And for the record, we owned a TB cross pony, who hated being outside and was waiting at the gate to be brought in within the hour. You cannot generalize the demands and wants of an entire species and depict what is right or wrong.

Also, would you honestly say that your horse is a 'wild grazing animal'?? Isn't he your pet....or did you buy him, shove him in a field and leave him there to be a 'wild grazing animal'?....
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Once a horse has been kept in for much of it's life you will obviously have trouble turning it out and yes, it probably will go "beserk". Surely that's just common sense? It doesn't mean it was right to keep them stabled in the first place, but the damage has been done. Moving to our more sympathetically kept horses and ponies, the ones that "want to be in". If you were to be motivated to get some good behaviour input then there are very few horses that woudn't stop wanting to come in if a few changes were made. (I'm not saying ALL before people jump in and say "Oh, but MY horse....", but really it is very few).

I can understand why someone might say that they wouldn't breed from a horse in heart bar shoes. How do you know if the reason he is wearing the shoes is down to nature or nurture? I have a horse that I have always accepted to have "wierd" feet, and farriers and trimmers have told me that it's just something we have to live with. Until recently when I met a truly skilled trimmer who said "boll**ks!" and has already made a huge improvement in the shape and way of going. So Totillas might have had lovely feet if they'd been cared for differently. I suspect that my horse's problems go back to when he was a valuable colt foal and stabled in a barn for much of his young life.

It is such a shame that horses will continue to be kept in conditions that are not optimal for their mental wellbeing juste because we humans put a price on their heads, but that's not going to change.

As for horses being happy with their stabled lives, and "loving" their work, I do sometimes wonder how that is judged. Certainly, from watching Totillas's ridden videos, I wouldn't have a clue if he loves his work or not. He has no choice about it.
 
Sure, horses are feral animals who live in the wild, blah, blah, blah....well, that is only true to a point, natives, etc certainly, but WBs are man made horses, born in captivity, raised in captivity, brought up to utterly depend on humans. To turn horses away/out that have had this level of human interaction for the whole of their lives could be argued cruel. Some of them just do not take to the open space, they are almost agoraphobic, so we, as humans and their creators have a duty of care to ensure they are the happiest they can be.

Is it right? Is it wrong? There are arguments for both, of course, but welfare is of the utmost importance, and man made horses cannot be compared to natives.
 
I believe it is wrong to keep an animal permanently stabled. I also believe that it gives equestrian sport a bad name and could lead to animal rights campaigners getting equestrian sports dropped from the olympics. Some of these top competitors would only have themselves to blame.
 
I don't agree that our horses are feral animals, they are domesticated. Just as we care about giving zoo animals the best environment we can and the company of their own kind, my personal opinion is that we should do the same for horses.
The agoraphobic horse I was given had that problem because of the way he had been kept. I cannot even begin to relate how he first hid under a hedge to afraid to go to water or food (I fed him by hand for 2 weeks), then crabbed along fences when he emerged, or how many fences he ran through... However, he's living happily in a field with his girls these days. He didn't start off with a fear of open spaces (and enclosed spaces as well as it happens, he was very sad), he got that way because people made him that way.
 
Tinypony said:
It is such a shame that horses will continue to be kept in conditions that are not optimal for their mental wellbeing juste because we humans put a price on their heads, but that's not going to change.

As for horses being happy with their stabled lives, and "loving" their work, I do sometimes wonder how that is judged. Certainly, from watching Totillas's ridden videos, I wouldn't have a clue if he loves his work or not. He has no choice about it.
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Very good points imo. ;)

Wrapping horses up in cotton wool is imo not in their best interests. I'm no professional and have no experience of the world of competition but I do see many practices that are unnatural for horses but that suit human's and human's ideas of what is best.

Horses are creatures of open spaces not caves.
 
It's true that some competition horses are raised and kept in such a way that damages them - but this is not something to aspire to. The top-end of the competition world should be setting the example for everyone else to follow - but in this instance they do not. The fact that some competition horses are kept in such a way that leaves them unable to express the most basic normal behaviour (and let's not forget, the freedom to express normal behaviour is a legal requirement in the UK) is not something to be proud of.

Horses should be more than simply a vehicle for human vanity.
 
There was a feature on him in Your Horse a few months back and it said he wasn't allowed to roll as he was too valuable.

I think we just need to accept that there are some people who will put the horse first at the expense of the sport and some people who will put the sport first at the expense of the horse. We'll never all agree and it's reassuring to see there are more of the former than of the latter on this forum.
 
nikkimariet said:
I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.....
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Lord, I have never read so much tosh in all my life.

All the pro riders I know turn they horses out. And guess what - just like old Helen happy hackers horses, they don't injure themselves. Amazing that. And quite possibly due to the fact that going is out is the norm - not the exception, so they don't explode everytime they are turned out.
 
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millitiger said:
I thought they had tried turning him out and he panicked and couldn't be left in the field?

Regardless of what has made him like that, to turn him out now would be cruel.
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I'm sure you're right. My friends dressage mare couldn't be turned out for a long, long time when she first brought her over from Germany. Once she'd been broken in - she was never turned out again. She was slowly reintroduced to the concept over a couple of months - and is now fine.

But it's true to say that once these highly bred horses are brought in for breaking - that's the end of herd turnout (which most of them will have had up until then 24/7).
 
Just to ponder another major welfare question :p

Is it just me or do his noseband & browband look like they're from two totally different bridles?

Chunky noseband, fine little browband. Thought the same when I saw it on HHO cover this week. I don't get it...
 
nikkimariet said:
I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.
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This says it all to me sadly. :( Money and us(humans) put before the wellbeing of another creature...
What's even more sad is in this instance it's done in the name of 'entertainment'.
 
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I'm sure when EG had him he said he has been turned out before and just gallops and gallops so they stopped putting him out.

He gets walked out in hand several times a day, although it's not the same.
Not many GP horses get turned out at all anyway, sad as it is.

My ex employer did start putting her GP horse out in the field for a few hours a day, but I literally had to sit and watch him and if he showed any signs of moving I had to run and get him in. Although the more he went out the more settled he was to the point where he could be out most of the day.
Funnily enough she had her best season ever then!
 
That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest.
Stallions cannot live out in a herd- can you imagine the carnage!
I don't think he looks unhappy or lack lustre, he is not as fat as he was but then that will be due him covering mares and in full competitive work.
My own horse has now been in for 12 weeks( due to injury which is now recovered but he still not allowed out) He is lunged in the morning, ridden at mid day and hand grazed in the evening. He is more than happy.
Horses like routine, if there routine is what they are used to then this is what they live by.

If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!
 
charlie76 said:
That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest.
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For a human maybe. :confused: Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... :eek:
charlie76 said:
If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!
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:confused: Why does it have to be one or the other? Keeping horses in domesticity is always going to be a compromise but surely we have the brain and ingenuity to provide management closer to what horses have evolved for? :(
 
charlie76 said:
That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest.
Stallions cannot live out in a herd- can you imagine the carnage!
I don't think he looks unhappy or lack lustre, he is not as fat as he was but then that will be due him covering mares and in full competitive work.
My own horse has now been in for 12 weeks( due to injury which is now recovered but he still not allowed out) He is lunged in the morning, ridden at mid day and hand grazed in the evening. He is more than happy.
Horses like routine, if there routine is what they are used to then this is what they live by.

If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!
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Agree that if he knows no different then he probably isn't too unhappy but it doesn't make it ok.

I know of a stallion that isn't turned out because he stresses as he has never been allowed out in the past and is now in his teens. Doesn't make it ok but it's not the fault of his current owner (all other stallions she owns are turned out for a few hours each day).

My problem is with horses not being turned out because of the risk of injury and potential financial implications. That's just not right. As someone said - that's what insurance is for!!!
 
charlie76 said:
That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out.
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Actually Charlie, that's not strictly true. He will have been out in a broodmare herd until weaned. Then a bachelor group until brought in to be broken in.

So whilst a dim and distant memory - certainly he will have known considerable freedom for the first few years of his life.
 
Since when did saying horses tend to enjoy having some field time equate to becoming a crusty save the ponios type?:confused: I'm not one of those, I shave my pits regularly:p
 
FleabittenT said:
Just to ponder another major welfare question :p

Is it just me or do his noseband & browband look like they're from two totally different bridles?

Chunky noseband, fine little browband. Thought the same when I saw it on HHO cover this week. I don't get it...
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Fail to see why this is a major welfare issue :confused:

On the subject of turnout, many top dressage riders do turn out, many also do not. There is a huge amount of money involved here and, sadly, once money takes over, the interests of the horses lose out. However, I will say that they are not left in a darkened box all day, their days are filled with work on the horsewalker and in the school - I don't personally think it is what is best for the horse but there are much much bigger welfare issues to get your knickers in a twist about.
 
but there are much much bigger welfare issues to get your knickers in a twist about.
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I don't think posters are getting theyre knickers in a twist - merely discussing the reasons why a valuable horse does not deserve turnout.........
 
I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.
 
Spudlet said:
I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I agree, I also agree that horses need turnout. It was just that a couple of the posts on the previous page were a little personal, funnily enough they were directed at you!
 
Spudlet said:
I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.
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I agree.

I don't see non matching tack as an issue myself but I do think management of horses is a very big issue for the horses that gets overlooked and as you say, aspired to and judged as 'must be ok', because people are top professionals... :(
 
Amaranta said:
Oh don't get me wrong, I agree, I also agree that horses need turnout. It was just that a couple of the posts on the previous page were a little personal, funnily enough they were directed at you!
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Mehh, no worries about that, got broad shoulders and all that :). People have strong opinions and they get het up about these things. Maybe it touches a nerve for some people too?
 
Spudlet said:
Special shoes, a solarium - but apparently no field:(

And yes, I know that's probably not unusual for these 'top' horses - doesn't make it any less sad IMO. No horse should be too valuable to allow it time to be outside, being a horse.
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I agree with this totally.
 
The photos are interesting as he definitely did not have heart bar shoes when he was in Holland, he had normal shoes then.

Re. the turnout comments, it's been done a million times, it's like the hat/no hat debate -- we have to accept that most top dressage horses are not turned out, full stop.. People like Carl Hester are the exception rather than the rule.
 
nikkimariet said:
That much money? Weigh it up against the risk.... Even if insurance does cover an accident, any injury to top horses like this would be a major loss to the competing world.
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Its sad that it comes down to that. I also believe this is an unfounded belief; how many times do we hear about one of Carl Hester's top rides having to be retired or PTS due to an injury out hacking or in the field?

Totilas could get cast in his stable, or caught up in tack, or spook, trip and fall when ridden... you'll never eliminate accidents. It just comes down to weighing up risk vs welfare - and to me turnout is not too high a risk to compromise welfare so much.

millitiger said:
I thought they had tried turning him out and he panicked and couldn't be left in the field?

Regardless of what has made him like that, to turn him out now would be cruel.
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Ask the thoroughbred racehorse rehabilitation centre(s). I was very impressed when I visited to see they had everything between stable and field, and spent a lot of time rehabing horses who initially find turnout too stressful.

Tinypony said:
Once a horse has been kept in for much of it's life you will obviously have trouble turning it out and yes, it probably will go "beserk". Surely that's just common sense?
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Voice of reason

Weezy said:
Is it right? Is it wrong? There are arguments for both, of course, but welfare is of the utmost importance, and man made horses cannot be compared to natives.
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Whilst they obviously are highly bred to our specifications, they are still the same species, and in evolutionary terms the difference in breeding is so small as to be almost irrelevant. The evolution of the horse to live on the plains and be a grazing animal dates back to 18m years ago. we may have bred different coats, movement, temperament, but I don't believe that selective breeding in a comparably short time frame can compete with the evolutionary need to be out.
 
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