Totilas even has special shoes?!

I have to say its nice to see a top rider riding in a hard hat at home.

IMO Toto gets alot of hard work, he is a top competition stallion who needs to be fit, and uninjured.

I used to ride a dressage stallion who in the peak of his career was not turned out for several years because he would pace the fence so much he would lame himself. He was completely fine with this. If they have the workload then who are we to judge?
 
All of you saying is he kept in a darkened box 24/7; please give me your sources. I am in awe, as you seem to know every single aspect of Totos care....

If Toto wasn't happy in his work - he would make it known.

Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg...................

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.

A turnout and a hat argument in all of one week? I'm bored now.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Re. the turnout comments, it's been done a million times, it's like the hat/no hat debate -- we have to accept that most top dressage horses are not turned out, full stop..
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No, we do not have to accept it anymore than we have to accept other welfare issues. Sometimes kicking up a bit of a stink about issues like this are the beginnings of getting them changed.

I think it is a matter of time before it is completely unacceptable not to allow horses any access to the freedom of turnout. After all it used to be acceptable to keep wild animals in less than stable sized cages. Things change when enough people make enough noise about what is not acceptable, and I believe this will be one of them.
 
Nocturnal said:
Wow, serious sense of humour failure there! :p

:rolleyes:
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LOL - absolutely.

Someone back there somewhere said that domesticated horses do not know anything better (or similar). Go and stick your head in a 'domesticated' or zoo tiger's mouth - here kitty kitty.... and see what happens. You MIGHT be lucky...

Horses across the world are horses (wild, semi domesticated and domesticated) - however, big, small, old, young or expensive! They all 'tick' mentally and physically in the same way and you can never and will never be able to breed their basic instincts out of them.

I feel that some posters on here might be turning into trolls...
 
amandap said:
For a human maybe. :confused: Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... :eek:

Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
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Flame_ said:
No, we do not have to accept it anymore than we have to accept other welfare issues. Sometimes kicking up a bit of a stink about issues like this are the beginnings of getting them changed.

I think it is a matter of time before it is completely unacceptable not to allow horses any access to the freedom of turnout. After all it used to be acceptable to keep wild animals in less than stable sized cages. Things change when enough people make enough noise about what is not acceptable, and I believe this will be one of them.
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Really? You believe arguing with other members on here....is going to change the professional equine competing sphere....on a global scale?? Not putting a horse on turnout is not against the law - you'd have to be INSANE to actually believe they are mistreating Totilas.
 
nikkimariet said:
All of you saying is he kept in a darkened box 24/7; please give me your sources. I am in awe, as you seem to know every single aspect of Totos care....

If Toto wasn't happy in his work - he would make it known.

Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg...................

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.

A turnout and a hat argument in all of one week? I'm bored now.
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i agree, also i dont understand how all this has anything to do with OPs question? they were only asking about the shoes!
 
Brambridge04 said:
amandap said:
For a human maybe. :confused: Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... :eek:

Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
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Lol, some might well. :D

I think it is important to discuss all aspects of horsemanship and I'm not of the opinion that we don't have a right to question things no matter who or what it is. :confused:
These people may well feel someone like me has no right to comment and others may feel there is no point because it wont make a difference... I don't feel that way and especially when a horse or other animal (I include other humans here) can be so easily controlled by us. I think we have a duty to question once we assume responsibility for another beings care and life.
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If one person competing at any level reads this thread and decides that perhaps they can manage to both compete and turnout, that's a good result in my opinion.

It's a discussion forum, so we... discuss. If people would prefer a top-rider-unquestioning-adoration-at-all-times forum, perhaps one could be set up?
 
nikkimariet said:
Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg...................

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.
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It????

My horse trashed his tendon bombing about in a field and is now retired. But equally he survived 21 years of bombing about in fields without damaging anything so.....

It's actually quite insulting that you think "half" the people on this thread would just turn him out and throw caution to the wind. We're not that stupid. No one is suggesting we start some sort of "Free Totilas" movement. What people want to see is a change in attitude that results in horses being allowed to be horses even if they happen to be, through no choice of their own, expensive "assets" to the sport.
 
Naturally said:
Whilst they obviously are highly bred to our specifications, they are still the same species, and in evolutionary terms the difference in breeding is so small as to be almost irrelevant. The evolution of the horse to live on the plains and be a grazing animal dates back to 18m years ago. we may have bred different coats, movement, temperament, but I don't believe that selective breeding in a comparably short time frame can compete with the evolutionary need to be out.
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But what about dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, birds the list is endless of the amount of animals we have domesticated and taken out of their natural environments!!! Dogs are pack animals many people keep a single dog, and shut it inside the kitchen/cage 9-5 while they are at work! Some cats aren't even allowed out side, where they can act naturally instead they are shut inside house, rabbits are naturally out on massive plains grazing and down holes, instead we shut them in tiny wooden boxes- oh I forget occasionally letting them out into tiny mesh cages where they can have a taste is grass for an hour or so before being shut back in a tiny wooden box usually alone!!! Parrots/birds are another example in the wild they have the skies to fly round and play and be with their species but instead we lock them in tiny metal cages alone, with nothing more to do than just sit their.... And why is this just for our own personal entertainment

Horses in my eyes get a wonderful life compared to some of our 'lesser earning' pets. We treat them like kings and love them like our own, and we can ride them and compete and have fantastic relationships with them...

Come on Totilas is kept like royalty and I'm sure with all the lovely top of the range hay/haylage, feeds, work, tack, mares, riders and other fantastic wonders I'm sure he's not really to worried... I think people need to realise that horses ARE about all about money in the real world, most of the people sitting here moaning about a horse not being in the wild have a horse out in their back garden/at a livery yard THEY PAID MONEY FOR!!!

Totilas is a healthy and clearly happy horse, yes he might not have the 'freedom' as some amateur own horses, but then he is not a 'normal' horse in the slightest!!! He leads a pretty good life if I'm honest I certainly wouldn't complain!!! having millions spent on him people wooing over him!!!

People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx
 
jessamess said:
People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx
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All true but my issue with it is that the owners of these horses can afford to provide the best care possible and it is in pretty much every aspect other than turnout. Which they can also do....they can afford to set up a stallion paddock where horses like Totilas could spend a few hours outside each day. The reason they don't allow it isn't because they can't afford it or because it's not in his best interests but because he's too valuable and it's in THEIR best interests to keep him wrapped in cotton wool (and because keeping him cooped up probably results in him being more expressive when he does get out so...).

I totally agree with you on the issue of other pets. That's also wrong in my eyes.
 
AshTay said:
It????
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Problem?

I know people with horses that *won't* turn out, regardless of their owners efforts. I think its downright silly to suggest that all horses have to be treated in the same way. My horse would be perfectly happy on the regime Totilas is on. He prefers being turned out (if its with other horses), so that's what I do, but its not indispensable for his wellbeing. If it was a choice between individual turn out and hand grazing, he'd prefer hand grazing.

There are much bigger welfare concerns imho, like bad riding and ill fitting tack. Neither of which Totilas will ever have to contend with!
 
I agree with everything Spudlet says. I own a decent number of horses, all of whom work hard, but in reality I am involved with horses because I love them, and feel that they deserve some quality of life, even if they have a job. Withholding turnout is denying them one of their most basic needs, and is in my opinion cruel.

You put your finger on the button when you said institutionalised, this describes every horse I've ever met that has been stabled 24/7, the way mine went when he had 3 months box rest after breaking his leg, and actually pretty accurately describes the mental state of battery hens.

I recently bought a horse that had been kept in all his life, and he is only now starting to act like a horse with some individuality, rather than a blank eyed zombie. When I say he doesn't mind being in, what I mean is that he is resigned to being in. I have yet to meet a horse that would be stabled than out!
 
Nocturnal said:
Problem?
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If you don't know it doesn't matter.

Many horses have been conditioned to want to be in. It's where they get fed and usually have an unlimited supply of hay and let's face it, most yards don't have particularly amazing turnout - of course they want to be in. But I think the whole debate of whether this is about all horses being different or some being mentally ill due this conditioning has already been done on this thread.
 
AshTay said:
If you don't know it doesn't matter.

Many horses have been conditioned to want to be in. It's where they get fed and usually have an unlimited supply of hay and let's face it, most yards don't have particularly amazing turnout - of course they want to be in. But I think the whole debate of whether this is about all horses being different or some being mentally ill due this conditioning has already been done on this thread.
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:rolleyes:

Yes well, both the horses I know that won't turn out have been owned since they were youngstock by their respective owners. Neither of them have been conditioned, its just the way they are. They have ample grass on top notch turnout, they just don't want to be out there. Not by themselves, not with company.

Trying to fit all horses into the same routine is a recipe for disaster.
 
jessamess said:
But what about dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, birds the list is endless of the amount of animals we have domesticated and taken out of their natural environments!!! Dogs are pack animals many people keep a single dog, and shut it inside the kitchen/cage 9-5 while they are at work! Some cats aren't even allowed out side, where they can act naturally instead they are shut inside house, rabbits are naturally out on massive plains grazing and down holes, instead we shut them in tiny wooden boxes- oh I forget occasionally letting them out into tiny mesh cages where they can have a taste is grass for an hour or so before being shut back in a tiny wooden box usually alone!!! Parrots/birds are another example in the wild they have the skies to fly round and play and be with their species but instead we lock them in tiny metal cages alone, with nothing more to do than just sit their.... And why is this just for our own personal entertainment

Horses in my eyes get a wonderful life compared to some of our 'lesser earning' pets. We treat them like kings and love them like our own, and we can ride them and compete and have fantastic relationships with them...

Come on Totilas is kept like royalty and I'm sure with all the lovely top of the range hay/haylage, feeds, work, tack, mares, riders and other fantastic wonders I'm sure he's not really to worried... I think people need to realise that horses ARE about all about money in the real world, most of the people sitting here moaning about a horse not being in the wild have a horse out in their back garden/at a livery yard THEY PAID MONEY FOR!!!

Totilas is a healthy and clearly happy horse, yes he might not have the 'freedom' as some amateur own horses, but then he is not a 'normal' horse in the slightest!!! He leads a pretty good life if I'm honest I certainly wouldn't complain!!! having millions spent on him people wooing over him!!!

People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx
Click to expand...

But I disagree with this too! Just because horses have a better life than some animals, doesn't mean that no turnout is right.

And I wouldn't keep any animal of mine the way that you've described here...
 
Nocturnal said:
:rolleyes:

Yes well, both the horses I know that won't turn out have been owned since they were youngstock by their respective owners. Neither of them have been conditioned, its just the way they are. They have ample grass on top notch turnout, they just don't want to be out there. Not by themselves, not with company.

Trying to fit all horses into the same routine is a recipe for disaster.
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There'll always be someone who can drag up an example of a horse that is the exception to the rule.

But what you've said actually proves a point - they choose to be in. Did all the dressage horses that are stabled 24/7 get that choice? Or does it just so happen that the ability to reach the upper echelons of dressage is always accompanied by a "natural" tendency to not want to be turned out. I'm guessing not.
 
AshTay said:
There'll always be someone who can drag up an example of a horse that is the exception to the rule.

But what you've said actually proves a point - they choose to be in. Did all the dressage horses that are stabled 24/7 get that choice? Or does it just so happen that the ability to reach the upper echelons of dressage is always accompanied by a "natural" tendency to not want to be turned out. I'm guessing not.
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Yes, I personally know two horses that are the "exception to the rule". I think its rather silly to have "rules" about how a horse must be handled, as all horses are different.

My point was against people who think all horses must be turned out period (regardless of whether the horses actually WANT to be out). And also that horses can be perfectly happy not going out - my horse would be happy with Totilas' routine.

Really, I think people just enjoy criticising sometimes :rolleyes:
 
Wow what a thread, i clicked on it believing it was about Toto's shoes.:rolleyes:

Then it turns into a T/O debate, i had to agree with one of the posters who said that 90% of there horses injurys where due to T/O. I have to say snap mine to, my dressage horse who i turned around from being a very Dangerous horse to a very happy horse had an injury in the field last year. It's a serious one & has meant that 5 years of my work with him has been wiped out. He is the first horse ive managed to train from Prelim to Medium & training Adv. I have to say it's absolutely devistating to have all that work ripped from under me. The horse also is suffering due to the fact he loved his life going out training & competing. He's finding it very hard adjusting.

BUT, i still T/O he should still be on Box rest however he spends his days in a small T/O pen. WHY because being stabled 24/7 made him very ill, i have no idea as to what the future holds for him but he will probably be in a small T/O pen for quite some months yet.
I guess some of you will call me cruel due to it being a small pen, but all i can say is he is a lunitic of a horse in the field. If he does gallop or canter atm it is likely his injury will never come right & he will be PTS.

It's very easy for all of us to sit & judge other's horse keeping skills.
 
AshTay said:
It????

My horse trashed his tendon bombing about in a field and is now retired. But equally he survived 21 years of bombing about in fields without damaging anything so.....

It's actually quite insulting that you think "half" the people on this thread would just turn him out and throw caution to the wind. We're not that stupid. No one is suggesting we start some sort of "Free Totilas" movement. What people want to see is a change in attitude that results in horses being allowed to be horses even if they happen to be, through no choice of their own, expensive "assets" to the sport.
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My horse did both his front suspensories in the field - he was on box rest for near enough 6 months and then 6 months of hand grazing after that. Which meant that when he was brought back into work it was back to square one with his training.

Totilas has natural ability, yes. But part of his movement is down to training and perserverance. Do you think he would continue to move the way he does now if he got chucked out in a field and his work routine totally changed? No.
 
Spudlet said:
If one person competing at any level reads this thread and decides that perhaps they can manage to both compete and turnout, that's a good result in my opinion.
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Ours are out from 7am - 4pm. At least 6 days a week. And they both compete Elementary-Medium.

So thanks.
 
Last edited:
Stephen Clarke's horses go out, even his stallions, so it is not just Carl.

What will become of these "i can not possibly stay in a field" horses when retirement comes then?
 
nikkimariet said:
Totilas has natural ability, yes. But part of his movement is down to training and perserverance. Do you think he would continue to move the way he does now if he got chucked out in a field and his work routine totally changed? No.
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No, he probably wouldn't but would he NOT move the way he does today if he'd been allowed some turnout throughout his training from the beginning??
Are the two incompatible?

I'm gutted that my horse is no longer rideable because of a field injury but if I had the opportunity to go back and keep him in all the time to avoid that happening I'd still turn him out because it's a risk we take in keeping horses. Would be like refusing to let your child out of your sight for fear of bad things happening to them.
 
nikkimariet said:
:confused: I didn't start the turnout debate? But I am glad you agree.
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didnt say you did hun was just a genral statement, wasnt realy aimed at anyone ;)

though id just like to point out to some people on here that the majority of racehorses live in 24/7 and get the same amount of exercise as totilias. what do you think would happen to a town like newmarket if all horses HAD to be turned out?? there are round about 50 yards in the small town and each of them has between 20 - 100 horses stabled there, how exactly would they manage?
 
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