Totilas is back

I'm probably not going to be able to properly articulate what I mean here, but bear with me.

I always loved watching Totilas. I thought he looked like he was uncontainable, and Gal just had to sort of direct his energy. He always looked like the kind of horse who liked things HIS way, and being able to do that whilst still getting results was how Gal showed how well he understood and worked with Totilas. However, I think Totilas was absolutely one in a million, and everything he was was the product of him being him - his breeding, his being a stallion, his hot temperament etx, and his training seemed to be very much about HIM and how to direct all that expression without too much tension. But whilst he was impressive, he never looked effortless.

Valegro, however, I don't think it is so much about *him*. Bear with me before you shout! I think with Valegro, as you see with all the Hester horses these days with their excellent results, it was about the training. Like Carl said, Valegro didn't look that much when they started him out. It is the training that Carl and Charlotte have done that has created that horse, and his partnership with Charlotte that has gained them the incredible results they have.

Obviously Valegro is an incredible horse, but he isn't such a genetic freak as Totilas. Valegro makes it looks easy, if not as extravagent - part of that is him as a horse being so easy to do (I vaguely remember reading that someone fairly novice, maybe a relation of Hester or dujardin, will even hack him out), and being a gelding will help with that.

But what is significant is that with Valegro it was the training and the partnership that was significant, and Totilas it was the management of him as this sort of freak of nature. With Totilas, a change of rider and change of scenario ruined him. With Valegro, if Carl took over the ride, or some other good dressage rider who rides more classically according to the scales of training (not Anky etx), Valegro may not set records (their partnership is what does that) but would likely still produce lovely work and try hard.

I probably haven't explained what I mean very well, but essentially I think Totilas was sort of the end product of all that movement obsessed side of dressage, and whilst he was spectacular, he was also very, very difficult to manage and to show real relaxation. Valegro I don't think is as gasp-inducing, but it is his relaxation that always gets me, and I think he is a credit to his training, rather than his breeding.
 
I thought the other warm up video looked promising :) And both videos vastly different from the one taken at the stallion show a few years ago. Hopefully the partnership will continue to improve:)

khalswitz said:
Obviously Valegro is an incredible horse, but he isn't such a genetic freak as Totilas. Valegro makes it looks easy, if not as extravagent - part of that is him as a horse being so easy to do (I vaguely remember reading that someone fairly novice, maybe a relation of Hester or dujardin, will even hack him out), and being a gelding will help with that.
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just one point: the person that Carl usually mentions as Valegro's regular hacking partner is Trish Gardiner, former Olympic rider & list 1 judge... not too much of a novice ;) ;) but granted he does appear to be a remarkable horse. No wonder Carl calls him the Professor!
 
Booboos said:
It's a normal feature of any spectator competition that the spectators want in on the judging! We all have views on the results from the Olympics all the way through to the Intro test at the local RC. The facts, in a subjectively marked sport, will always be open to interpretation and the public will inevitably have views :)

I'm glad Monica Theordoescu liked the test but to me it looked weaker than before - but that's the fun of the sport, everyone can have a view on a test. Luckily for all involved no one is asking me be an FEI judge so we're all safe!
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Indeed . . . and I still see a horse who is, at times, trailing behind and who looks like a "cut and shut."

No, I'm not an FEI judge, but I can see a clear difference between Totilas and (for example) Valegro . . . and, for that matter, Half Moon Delphi, Nip Tuck, Utopia . . . .and even Alf . . . and the comparison doesn't favour Toto.

P
 
milliepops said:
I thought the other warm up video looked promising :) And both videos vastly different from the one taken at the stallion show a few years ago. Hopefully the partnership will continue to improve:)



just one point: the person that Carl usually mentions as Valegro's regular hacking partner is Trish Gardiner, former Olympic rider & list 1 judge... not too much of a novice ;) ;) but granted he does appear to be a remarkable horse. No wonder Carl calls him the Professor!
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I completely apologise if I misremembered - I had it in my head it was someone without a lot of experience that hacked him out, but obviously not. Sorry. However point still stands that he is a dude to do, unlike Totilas who looks terrifying... (Admittedly I most likely couldn't ride one side of Valegro either but at least he looks like he wouldn't kill me for trying!!)
 
Tern said:
and does he need to curb rein so flipping tight, the shank is almost horizontal.
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No, he probably needs the curb chain a link tighter - the curb should not be used with constant pressure, like the bradoon/snaffle. But whatever, since not ONE of us is ever likely going to be able to ride a horse like this (or actually want to........). Mathias Rath is not at all a bad rider, but he's not Edvard Gal who seems to be some sort of genius with this type of horse. There are things about Totilas which I think are amazing (piaffe/passage, ability to lengthen and shorten), other things which I think are not (changes are a bit wild, tension and not keen on the spider-legs). There are also things which I don't like about the Valegro/Charlotte DuJardin presentation, but overall I would prefer to see the ease and "try" of the one over the barely contained buzz of the other. That (Valegro) is dressage to me, the other (Totilas) is more about freakish talent, on both equine and human scales.
 
Cortez said:
No, he probably needs the curb chain a link tighter - the curb should not be used with constant pressure, like the bradoon/snaffle. But whatever, since not ONE of us is ever likely going to be able to ride a horse like this (or actually want to........). Mathias Rath is not at all a bad rider, but he's not Edvard Gal who seems to be some sort of genius with this type of horse. There are things about Totilas which I think are amazing (piaffe/passage, ability to lengthen and shorten), other things which I think are not (changes are a bit wild, tension and not keen on the spider-legs). There are also things which I don't like about the Valegro/Charlotte DuJardin presentation, but overall I would prefer to see the ease and "try" of the one over the barely contained buzz of the other. That (Valegro) is dressage to me, the other (Totilas) is more about freakish talent, on both equine and human scales.
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Sorry was meant to say does he need *the* i know it's not supposed to have constant pressure ^^
 
khalswitz said:
I completely apologise if I misremembered - I had it in my head it was someone without a lot of experience that hacked him out, but obviously not. Sorry. However point still stands that he is a dude to do, unlike Totilas who looks terrifying... (Admittedly I most likely couldn't ride one side of Valegro either but at least he looks like he wouldn't kill me for trying!!)
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lol no need to apologise, it just tickled me :D

and yes, I quite agree he looks like he'd be a gent :)
 
Never knew we had so many esteemed dressage judges on this forum - I'm impressed. I'll not say anything technical as I couldn't hope to achieve anything of that standard but I was never a fan of his action in front.
 
"As for the front leg he's always been like that. And it is a reflection of slight tension and a common thing in a Trakhner" ?


Totilas is registered KWPN I believe, though there is Trakehner in there. Frankly, none of the Trakehners I know, including our own, have weird front leg action like Totilas'
Anyway, we're off to Kapellen tomorrow, so will see what he is like in the flesh.
 
I actually couldn't watch past the first 30 seconds. Im shocked more people on here aren't causing more of a stir over him prodding him bloody hard with very decent spurs several times. What horrid viewing. Poor Totilas, so sad that any horse can be treated like this, let alone such a star horse.
 
Scarlett said:
Let's face it though, Rath hasn't just got this horse and ruined him. The damage was done a long time ago...
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I'm no serious dressage watcher but think there is a lot of truth in this. The horse was established at GP at quite a young age and with a very extravagant/exaggerated movement. If, as seems to be universally acknowledged, Edward Gal trained him with Rollkur, then is it possible that the front leg action may have been 'encouraged' or 'enhanced' in some way too? Totilas is now 14 so of an age where all this could be catching up with him and now causing issues.

Matthias Rath is in the unenviable position of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. If they had been really successful straight away, it would have been because he'd been bought a ready-made superstar and only had to sit there. Since they haven't, it must be because Rath can't ride one side of him and has therefore ruined him.
 
I didn't watch the whole video, just the beginning and a bit in the middle. The front leg thing has always been there but I can't remember it ever being quite so obvious?

I don't like the way he rides him though, they both look equally unhappy.

Can I ask though, would the uneven front leg be something that is marked down? Obviously I haven't got a clue I just like watching dressage.
 
trakehnersrock! said:
"As for the front leg he's always been like that. And it is a reflection of slight tension and a common thing in a Trakhner" ?


Totilas is registered KWPN I believe, though there is Trakehner in there. Frankly, none of the Trakehners I know, including our own, have weird front leg action like Totilas'
Anyway, we're off to Kapellen tomorrow, so will see what he is like in the flesh.
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He is KWPN BUT is largely trakhner bloodlines. Gribaldi -Kostolony .
A common conformation issue with this bloodline is uneven hoof size and can lead to uneven use of the front legs. A horse like him with such extravagance and freedom In the shoulder and the elbow this irregular movement will be more plainly
seen. I too have considerable experience of this bloodline and of the issues they sometimes experience.
Each horse has their own way of going and comparing toto with blueberry is like comparing apples with pears. It has to really be about each horses development along the scales of training. Each rider has a different way of interpreting those criteria as do judges have differing subjective ways of judging them! So we are all going to have slight variances and opinions
 
i thought that look rather good and a vast improvement to be honest. i loved the end horse pricks his ears and Matthias gratuitously thanks him!

i am with the he's damned whatever he does with this horse camp and everyone so flipping quick to forget Gal's training methods!
 
Scarlett said:
In the grand scheme of GP dressage that was lovely!
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I would agree it was lovely to watch I think perhaps the lack of coming through from behind is because he is so full on in front so it looks a little uneven powerwise but that was a much nicer video than the first one
 
Thanks for posting the link, SF.

This test showed a much happier pair, who were working with each other, rather than against each other. I was especially impressed that after Totilas stumbled, they both carried on confidently as if nothing had happened.
 
I simply wouldn't presume to try and judge this level of dressage although, if I can venture into forbidden territory, his changes went a bit wonky (technical term) and his bonkers front legs definitely do not seem equally bonkers.

However, I have only seen one other video of this pairing; the one indoors in the Netherlands I think, where he had his tongue over the bit, and this video here. And frankly, even with the tail swishing, the two vids are poles apart. I don't care (or notice) if he makes little (or large) errors. What matters to me is that he's a whole million per cent happier and more relaxed in the work being asked of him. And that counts for loads in my opinion. :)
 
Tern said:
How do you pronounce Totilas? I call him Tortilla - people have no clue until i say black dressage horse. xD
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I go with Toe Till Ass. Not because I think its necessarily the correct pronunciation, more I have a childish sense of humour and with that weird front end action I do wonder if his toe will ever reach his....
 
Spring Feather said:
GP Special from today - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSFQYPuaoM#t=105
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Tiddlypom said:
Thanks for posting the link, SF.

This test showed a much happier pair, who were working with each other, rather than against each other. I was especially impressed that after Totilas stumbled, they both carried on confidently as if nothing had happened.
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I agree. Everyone has good and bad days. The guy is still trying to get the measure of the horse and vice versa and I think this video shows that not all days are bad for this couple.
 
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