Totilas- is this a bit mean?

templewood said:
I spent quite a lot of time in Germany and it is very rare to see horses out in the fields around Munster, where they do a lot of breeding.
I remember seeing an article on a retired International German showjumper who is a well known breeder. His young horses are kept in large barns, with not a great deal of square footage per horse. What a lot of people don't realise, is that breeding horses in Germany and Holland is done on a very large scale, and the equivalent of factory farming. Freedom is totally beyond these horses experience. While people keep buying them, they will keep being produced in this way. It's big business!
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When was this? I've been living in Warendorf for two years and the fields around here (20 mins from Munster) are completely overflowing with horses, it's such a joy to watch!!

I do not know of ANY breeders who do not turn youngsters out, some breeders in certain areas (e.g. Holstein) do keep horses indoors for the worst winter months, but they are free and keep living in a herd (they are not stabled, just loose in these huge indoor barns). But most of the year is spent out, often even 24/7. It's when the horses are 3 or 4 and move into training barns that the situation often (but not necessarily) changes.

As for Totilas, I have seen him a few times in the flesh and he truly is the most laid back, relaxed dressage horse around. Clearly the lack of turnout does not affect his character!

Apart from this, people fail to realise that dressage horses HAVE to be explosive - as a general rule, a horse kept outside 24/7 would never be able to perform at that level (Escapado, who was kept out 24/7 for a period of time, is the exception which proves the rule!).

This is how top dressage/sj horses are kept, throughout the world, as I said Laura B does the same with Alf, yet the outrage is only for Totilas - because he is Dutch?
 
Booboos said:
"As are humans" what? Sorry I don't get the comparison (domesticated? institutionalised?).

QUOTE]

Like horses humans have not always lived in "houses" and stayed in one area, we used to have to roam and hunt for food etc, the difference is that as humans we mostly have a choice as to what freedom of movement we want in this world. Any animals, when forced to live in a "closed and controlled" enviroment will display behaviour that is not seen in their natural enviroment, and normally suffer from mental or physical issues as a result.

I am pretty sure you deliberately confused the chocolate sentence so wont bother to explain that one!
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i will repeat this once more , A HORSE IS A COMMERCIAL COMMODITY and treated as such , sentiments are not involved , it is about success and monetary value
chris
 
Does Toto look in anyway mistreated or miserable?? He certainly doesnt to me im sure he is treated like a king, they could not afford for that horse to be upset in anyway shape or form.

Im a dressage rider & i do turn my horses out, unfortunately my dressage horse injured himself whilst in the field. It's touch & go as to if he'll ever be ridden again atm let alone go back to some sort of very low level dressage, if we can't keep him sound he wont even be able to go out in the field so PTS will be my only option.
I may not make my money in horses but i did invest so much into this horse & it's absolutely gutting actually heartbreaking. He's now on months of box rest we have completed 7 weeks so far. So i really can see the other side to why these people don't T/O all day everyday.
 
Allover said:
Booboos said:
"As are humans" what? Sorry I don't get the comparison (domesticated? institutionalised?).

QUOTE]

Like horses humans have not always lived in "houses" and stayed in one area, we used to have to roam and hunt for food etc, the difference is that as humans we mostly have a choice as to what freedom of movement we want in this world. Any animals, when forced to live in a "closed and controlled" enviroment will display behaviour that is not seen in their natural enviroment, and normally suffer from mental or physical issues as a result.

I am pretty sure you deliberately confused the chocolate sentence so wont bother to explain that one!
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I don't think that a horse with mental and physical issues would perform at Totilas' level. He seems exceptionally powerful and exceptionally submissive to his rider, a very rare combination that, to my eyes, shows a very happy horse. I also think that horses are highly adaptable and ver resilient, so generalisations that no horse would ever manage with no turn out without being literally sick, are just bound to be wrong.

Sorry I was unclear. I don't understand the analogy with the chocolate. In what way is Totilas' life in a box like humans being given chocolate? Which is the chocolate bit for Totilas? And why would it be bad? (I am a total chocolate addict, so I tend to see chocolate as a good thing, but I fear I am missing the point!).
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none of us know what happens at his yard to be fair though and he could well get time out grazing with a handler attached to a lunge line u never no. there are some nice pictures of him outside on his website

just wondering what is totos price tag
 
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Hmm, I know my horse for one would certainly prefer being hand grazed to turnout by himself (even with a view of other horses). He LOVES being handgrazed. He also loves going out in a herd, though, as he's a hooner. But that's precisely the problem for top level dressage horses, isn't it? I think a lot of horses can be perfectly happy without turnout, so long as there's a set routine to their day.
 
i am sorry, i cannot see the problem or what some folk are trying to say , there are plenty of similar situations in the uk like this involving all types of living creatures it is a fact of life
chris
 
EAST KENT said:
Well in the new animal welfare laws it IS ACTUAL cruelty to prevent an animal having the conditions that ALLOWS it to express itself naturally. That is why in this country pig stalls were banned,and why battery hens will be banned in the near future. A horse needs the release of a good buck fart and squeal,those never turned out are never free to express themselves.As for "liking routine"..that`s called being "institutionised".

If we approve this lifestyle for equines..then how can you then disapprove of circuses?? Same difference...pen/work/pen.:mad:
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And so say all of us!

The very few top riders I know all turn their horses out for as long as possible. I know of one dressage rider who will chuck her top horses out over night if they haven't been able to get out during the day because "its good for their heads". This is in winter in all weather conditions, they just bung a few more rugs on. Admitedly I don't know many top riders but as the one I have just spoken about has lots of gold jewelry won at various Olympics I would guess that they know what they are on about!

Horses need a break too even the really expensive ones. I believe its like us having a sit down they have their break and come back in better for it so its good for the horses performance as well.

Just a personal view. I have to say that last year mine refused point blank to go out on at least 5 occasions so spent all day in. I tried but they dug their heals in when they saw the amount of rain!
 
I know someone who's intermediate/advanced eventer won't go out. He just doesn't like it - he's never been institutionalised, they've had him from an unbroken 3yo straight from the field. Once he started coming in he just decided that he prefers a stable. I'm not saying Totilas or all dressage horses are like this, just that all horses are individuals, and its up to the handlers, surely, to decide what's in that horse's best interests. Naturally, in the case of expensive competition horses, account must be taken of the fact they have a job to do. If they can't go out and be sensible (which Totilas can't) then there's not a lot else to be done, surely?
 
Booboos said:
Allover said:
I don't think that a horse with mental and physical issues would perform at Totilas' level. He seems exceptionally powerful and exceptionally submissive to his rider, a very rare combination that, to my eyes, shows a very happy horse. I also think that horses are highly adaptable and ver resilient, so generalisations that no horse would ever manage with no turn out without being literally sick, are just bound to be wrong.

Sorry I was unclear. I don't understand the analogy with the chocolate. In what way is Totilas' life in a box like humans being given chocolate? Which is the chocolate bit for Totilas? And why would it be bad? (I am a total chocolate addict, so I tend to see chocolate as a good thing, but I fear I am missing the point!).
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Chocolate is definately a good thing:)


I was talking about horses in general, not just Totilas. People are also highly adaptable and resilient but as i said in my earlier post if we are given no freedom we have issues.


As are humans, and if you stick a human in a cage and only let it out to do an hours hard graft and feed it a bit of chocolate 3 times a day then that human would probably find it difficult to cope with the big wide world

I did not say the horse is given chocolate!!!
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ferrador said:
i am sorry, i cannot see the problem or what some folk are trying to say , there are plenty of similar situations in the uk like this involving all types of living creatures it is a fact of life
chris
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Some people are trying to say:

a) We understand the reasons why expensive horses are kept this way
b) Notwithstanding a) above, it is a shame for a horses to not have any turnout.
c) The fact it happens to other animals in other contexts does not make it right.
 
Frankly, if people weren't in love with horses and perhaps (some might say) "sentimental" about them, the bottom would drop out of the horse business in no time.

The percentage of people who actually make a living from horses is small, and the percentage of those who see horses merely as money-making livestock is smaller still. The great majority of spending money and enthusiasm which drives the industry comes from people who are concerned about their welfare.
 
i really can see both sides as people have detailed that when a horse is someones way of making there living it is risky business letting it run loose. Flip side is when people make no effort to break up the horses time in the stable and do not need to keep horse stabled.

I am at a yard run by a SJ pro and in the winter none of the horses are turned out (i am leaving to keep horse where there is winter TO) he regards the horses too valuable to go out and slide in the field. His horses go in the walker or/and are ridden daily. However at the same yard he has several (leisure rider) livieries including myself and all who are complaining about no TO in the winter however this weekend they were all keep in after being wormed and not one of them bothered to take there horses out for grass and only a few actually rode!! My horse was grazed in hand 3 times a day for approx an hour each time, it was time consuming and i am glad it wasnt raining!!! therefore i am moving so i can have winter TO because my horse isnt my living and he needs to socialise and graze its his down time, he is only 4! He is of course priceless to me and hopefully we will do some BE next year but i dont think i do enough with him to warrant him being stabled 24/7. It really is a case of doing the best by your horse withint he realms of keeping him safe.

The truth is most of us on here really dont have the time to graze horses in hand several times a day and our horses are used to socialising with others so enjoy company. What actually really annoys me is there is a girl at my yard who "gives her horse a break from the grass" at the weekend - translate she cant be bothered to turn her mare out at the weekend as yard staff dont do it as usually away at comps with YO and doesnt want her to get dirty so she keeps her in but rarely rides let alone take her out in hand!! :mad: If totilas has plenty of time to suit him and shows no signs of distress i dont think we are in a position to crit, he performs beautifully and certainly isnt a horse who looks depressed whereas mine would if it were in 24/7.
 
Can I just ask...has anyone bothered to check Edwards www? or even Toto's???
There were some pics of him turned out-all be it with a bit in.
There's also a 'contact us' section specifically for fans.....lets not assume shall we?
 
WoopsiiD, Edward said so himself in an interview. They tried several times to turn him out but each and everytime he came back with some sort of injury, a shoe off etc and that is when they decided to stop. He still goes out of the stable FOUR times a day though!

Also, I really don't think this is a welfare issue at all - there can not be any doubt at all that the horse looks happy, relaxed, inquisitive, when in the stable, and more importantly HAPPY to do his job when ridden. If he really were so miserable surely we'd see a different picture when competing?!
 
Think we might have crossed wires Frodo! I was trying to suggest that instead of commenting 'oh how bad not to let him out' and going on hearsay that people actually went straight to horses mouth as such!
If you visit the webs sites-and Toto has his own-all you see is a happy horse and a gentleman who clearly thinks the world of him!
The facilities there are to die for.
I for one wouldn't mind being horse there!
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
When was this? I've been living in Warendorf for two years and the fields around here (20 mins from Munster) are completely overflowing with horses, it's such a joy to watch!!

I do not know of ANY breeders who do not turn youngsters out, some breeders in certain areas (e.g. Holstein) do keep horses indoors for the worst winter months, but they are free and keep living in a herd (they are not stabled, just loose in these huge indoor barns). But most of the year is spent out, often even 24/7. It's when the horses are 3 or 4 and move into training barns that the situation often (but not necessarily) changes.

As for Totilas, I have seen him a few times in the flesh and he truly is the most laid back, relaxed dressage horse around. Clearly the lack of turnout does not affect his character!

Apart from this, people fail to realise that dressage horses HAVE to be explosive - as a general rule, a horse kept outside 24/7 would never be able to perform at that level (Escapado, who was kept out 24/7 for a period of time, is the exception which proves the rule!).

This is how top dressage/sj horses are kept, throughout the world, as I said Laura B does the same with Alf, yet the outrage is only for Totilas - because he is Dutch?
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Approx. twelve years ago. Apparently it would seem that the situation has changed! 3 or 4 when they move into training barns? Mmmm. Do they still jump the foals over large jumps, or has that practise ceased too?
 
I often wonder why some people buy a horse instead of a bike! I'm sure that if there were competitions for unicycle riding with fabulous prize money many of the people involved in 'top competition' would buy unicycles instead.
It is perfectly possible to compete horse off grass - it has been done in the case of race-horses and eventers to my knowledge, although i can't think of any top dressage horses off the top of my head.
If the elderly man, near me, who keeps cattle in a building all year round can be prosecuted by the RSPCA under the new Animal Welfare Act, why can't the keepers of horses who are never turned out be prosecuted also? Answer - because large sums of money are involved.
 
templewood said:
Approx. twelve years ago. Apparently it would seem that the situation has changed! 3 or 4 when they move into training barns? Mmmm. Do they still jump the foals over large jumps, or has that practise ceased too?
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Yes, at my yard we do not get anything younger than 3 (and most youngsters are 4 when they arrive), and the three-year-old normally spend three or four months in the field, in the summer, after they have been broken (the equivalent of 'being turned away for the winter' in the UK). I guess that stallion Korungs etc imply that some horses are worked sooner than that, but definitely not the norm.

I have never seen foals jumping but then again my yard is purely a dressage yard.

Pearlsasinger, the difference is that those cows probably never see the light of day, while these horses DO go out, just not in a field!! Just try and report the silver medal-winning GB dressage team to the RSPCA - what would happen? They would probably laugh, because these animals receive the best care possible, but they are simply not turned out. It's not a big deal.
 
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