Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..

asterid said:
Phew, thanks Laura, for a moment there I thought I was on my own! Completely agree.
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Not on your own. I don't like him either, never have, but I don't know whether that's because my eye is totally uneducated so maybe I'm just missing something!

IMHO if you cover up the front end of him and just watch the back, it looks like a totally different horse. He's obviously a very sweet and willing horse but I just can't see what about him is worth those sorts of marks.
 
It really grates on me. As we see so many young horses doing Grand Prix dressage when they are not mentally or physically ready. Horses are pushed through training to make money. (I do unerstand this) but my ethos is somewhat different. I like horses to take their time and ultimately do the job willingly and in harmony, which is what BD is all about (well supposed to be).

Laura B's horse is demonstrating a happy willing horse.

The judges are only seeing this flashy front end, which impressive as it is, is only a small part of the picture.

It is dissapointing that if top level judges are rating Totilas as a superhorse, they are totally missing the point of dressage! Which is why some people adopt rollkur or other forceful strategies to push through horses that are not ready, so are resorting to these awful training methods. Rant rant rant..........

(Im going to stop now)
 
nativeponies said:
oh, i don't doubt T has done loads for the sport, but that alone shouldn't blind people to the fact that he isn't "correct" and his name alone shouldn't win classes... IMO
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I agree with this. Also I have said this before (and got shot down in flames for it) But many horses in dressage today inclu T are over bent and have way to much front action. After all the horse is ment to work from behind.
I have had all the comments of "you are not a top rider" and "you don't ride at that level" "so who are you to critasise". This is my oppinion and also how I was taught dressage should be. It makes me sad to see dressage becoming more about circus trick type movments that are not always good for the horse.:(
 
I always think what can an animal put back to the breed, and no matter how much I love Alf's work, hes a gelding . totilas is an amazing animal, and entire, would I risk the 5k stud fee to a good mare if I could afford - you bet. I also agree to what the commentators said also last night about different animals/breeds having different gaits , this I feel put the spanish horse at a disadvantage . I just wonder how many dressage judges are 'au fait' with different breeds/styles? Again I question some of the scores though ,
 
nativeponies said:
it's a shame really, as the spanish horse, the little grey Fuego, did a lovely expressive test and an extended trot that must be breathtaking to sit with, yet had only 6's/7's for his walk and it was really loose and fluid?
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I'm a massive Fuego fan but his walk was neither loose or fluid, it was tense and shuffley
 
tweedette said:
I always think what can an animal put back to the breed, and no matter how much I love Alf's work, hes a gelding . totilas is an amazing animal, and entire, would I risk the 5k stud fee to a good mare if I could afford - you bet. I also agree to what the commentators said also last night about different animals/breeds having different gaits , this I feel put the spanish horse at a disadvantage . I just wonder how many dressage judges are 'au fait' with different breeds/styles? Again I question some of the scores though ,
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I wouldn't breed from him. We are judging a horses performance, and there is no way in this world I would want a horse of mine to lack the clairty and correctness of movement let alone such a hyperlfexed neck.

We can't dismiss Laura's horse because he is a gelding. So we can't breed from him, so what? Totilas does nothing for me and I wouldn't want his foal.

Sorry.
 
Love him or hate him, Totilas has an exceptionally beautifully balanced passage which fully deserved all those 10s.

For me, his weakness is his changes where he doesnt come through enough from behind. His walk isnt a massive problem but yes, it's not really high scoring due to the slight tension there
 
I personally love Totilas the horse is amazing, he is rythmical and powerful and does exactly what he is asked, to watch Edward ride is amazing.
I do think Alf is the more correct horse and watching Lauras tests makes me cry :o I had my fingers crossed that Totilas would spook or something and she would get gold but sadly it was not to be.
However I dont think its right for anyone to be ripping into a horse that has done nothing but what he has been asked to and has done so much for the sport.
 
This week is the first time I've seen Totilas properly, I was expecting to be blown away by him, but I wasn't. Yes he has a very showy knee action, but nothing else about him made me sit up. There were other horses that were as good as, and better than him, Mistral Horjis and Fuego being cases in point.

But then Totilas is 'only' 10, so another couple of years might see him become a more complete horse.
 
TheMule said:
Love him or hate him, Totilas has an exceptionally beautifully balanced passage which fully deserved all those 10s.

For me, his weakness is his changes where he doesnt come through enough from behind. His walk isnt a massive problem but yes, it's not really high scoring due to the slight tension there
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No he doesn't, there isn't purity of gait in his passage and he is carrying his weight incorrectly.

He is also 4 time in his walk - in fact - all of his gaits are not pure or true at times.

Again - this is because of his training NOT because he was born like it IMHO
 
4faults said:
However I dont think its right for anyone to be ripping into a horse that has done nothing but what he has been asked to and has done so much for the sport.
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I don't think people really are "ripping into" him. Yes the horse has done what he has been asked to do but that doesn't mean his training has been correct. When people comment on "Totilas" I think it is more a comment on him as a product of his training. If it is true that he really is trained in rollkur then I think it says an awful lot about his sweet temperament that he is so willing!

In terms of what he has done for the sport... yes he may have made dressage more exciting and more accessible but at what price? For people to think he is how a dressage horse should move and that his training is correct? For people at home to aspire to train in rollkur? For the general public to think a dressage horse should move like a trotter? I'm not sure it is worth that price.
 
QR
I don't like Totilas, but then again, I'm not much into dressage... If given the choice, I prefer the ''floaters'' over the ''flashers'' :)
And there is no way in creation he could take off over any sort of jump with a back end like that :p :D
 
amymay said:
It was very interesting to see a test done by him as a five year old - posted in CL a short time ago.

What a completely different horse he looked. Actually very attractive and normal looking........ And moving far more correctly.
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Lobelia_Overhill said:
But then Totilas is 'only' 10, so another couple of years might see him become a more complete horse.
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I'm a dressage numpty but I find these two comments really interesting. Wonder how Totilas will end up?

He may be doing wonders for the sport but if he isn't 'correct' (as some seem to think) what sort of role model is he and where will he take future dressage horses? Time will tell I suppose...
 
Laura1812 said:
Again - this is because of his training NOT because he was born like it IMHO
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^^ This ^^

There are videos of him as a 4yo looking much more correct than he does now. I can't see how there would be a problem breeding from him though (referring to a post above where someone said they wouldn't want to pass on the lack of clarity, correctness and the hyperflexed neck); surely these things are a primarily a product of his training, not his genetics?
 
I'm very definately not a dressage person (endurance actually), but have always thought his back & front ends weren't matched. He goes with a lovely attitude, but that trot to me looks like a circus act. Bit like doing spanish walk for an extended walk
 
asterid said:
I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked!

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan.

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse.

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end.

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.
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I completely agree with you, you are spot on!!
 
amandap said:
I'm a dressage numpty but I find these two comments really interesting. Wonder how Totilas will end up?

He may be doing wonders for the sport but if he isn't 'correct' (as some seem to think) what sort of role model is he and where will he take future dressage horses? Time will tell I suppose...
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I think if he continues the way he is going, in another 3-4 years he will end up broken.
 
Laura1812 said:
This is the reason I don't like Totilas

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

He does not move correctly or truely. Its not the horses fault - it is the way he has been trained. It simply isn't correct and shouldn't be awarded the high marks it achieves.
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thanks for putting in that link, very interesting!

I do believe that after Windsor, Gerd Herschmann used Totillas as an example of an incorrectly trained horse in one of his demo's!!
 
martlin said:
LOL, probably not... :)

But seriously, I like to see horse's body positioned over its legs, not behind them and at a tilting angle :eek:
I also don't think he truly comes through over his top, he's just bent:confused:
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d'ya know what comes to mind when he's doing his "extended trot"?

a Tennesee Walking Horse........................................ ;)
 
Seahorse said:
thanks for putting in that link, very interesting!

I do believe that after Windsor, Gerd Herschmann used Totillas as an example of an incorrectly trained horse in one of his demo's!!
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Yes he did. And he claimed that he would have broken down by the time he was 10 I think.

Though I'm not sure GH should be used as an example of anything on this thread, given recent photos of his riding... his theory may be sound (IMO) but his riding is leaves something to be desired!
 
Laura1812 said:
I think if he continues the way he is going, in another 3-4 years he will end up broken.
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Agreed.

Chestnut Cob, Agree it is a product of training not genetics, but I wouldn't put a mare into foal with him, as people breed based on breeding lines and performance. Based on his performance of lack of clarity e.t.c. that is why I wouldn't breed from him regardless of lines. He is poor marketing for a 'true' dressage horse.
 
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