Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..

If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.
 
Flame_ said:
If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.
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To the untrained eye he looks an amazing horse. It isn't until you look at his movment in more detail that you see the incorrect gaits and movements. Its like a picture of a photoshopped model really, Pretty to look at, but not the real thing.
 
asterid said:
To the untrained eye he looks an amazing horse. It isn't until you look at his movment in more detail that you see the incorrect gaits and movements. Its like a picture of a photoshopped model really, Pretty to look at, but not the real thing.
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The judges appear to disagree, and they must know at least a little bit about dressage. :confused: So what kind of marks should he have been getting taking into account his "incorrectness"?
 
Totilas had it won the moment he walked into the arena, did you not see the judges face, broke into a big ooooh aaaah gooey smile :D
The Andalusian did it for me, how hard was that horse trying :)
 
Flame_ said:
The judges appear to disagree, and they must know at least a little bit about dressage. :confused: So what kind of marks should he have been getting taking into account his "incorrectness"?
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This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.
 
Flame_ said:
If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.
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^^ agreed^^

We have all, I'm sure, seen a dressage test that shouldn't have won a class but did because of who is riding. It's a shame but it does happen through all levels :(

I enjoy watching Totilas and Ed-G because they do look like a great partnership. I agree I personally don't think he tracks up very well and needs to improve on his changes but maybe thats because he has come up to this level at quite a young age and in doing so lost some of the naturalness (not a word?!) of the paces he showed as a 5 year old.
Everyone has a right to their point of view, I for one always think Lauras horses look very heavy in her hands, but to be world champion at such a young age must mean there is something special about him.

Each to their own tho. If we all liked the same thing the world would be pretty dull. :)
 
asterid said:
This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.
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Yup this horse does cause controversy - you only have to look at this thread to see that lol! I cannot believe the judges are taking backhanders however! I do think though that they are now too scared to mark the horse down for fear of stepping out of the box.

I personally think that Laura deserved the gold and Fuego the silver, but as long as Totilas is on the dressage scene, he will continue to win, that is unless the judges grow some balls.

I do love this horse's attitude and would have no hesitation using him as a stallion, it is his training that has caused the incorrectness, not the horse, his tests as a 4yo only confirm this, his paces are true and very loose and free. Must admit I would use Fuego over him any day though (sorry I know I am biased:D )
 
asterid said:
This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.
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mmmm.........
 
I know very little about dressage, although find this thread very interesting.

I can't help but think that he must have started off ideal/correct in order to make such a big name for himself? The horse that is. Or is it just due to the rider? If so, if he has been sold then should we expect Totilas to be judged fairly based on what the judges can see before them (and potentially do poorly?) and Gal succeeding with another incorrect horse?
 
I saw Totilas last year at Olympia, and although in apprecited the showmanship comparing the tests in the Grand Prix I thought on balance there were better horses. My friend who just watched the GP specail thought he was wonderful.
It just makes what all the judges spout about, free, forward etc a whole load of bunk, but I love to know what they say to each other when they watch the rerun at the debrief.
We wiil have to put up with it until the next best thing comes along, unfortuately a lot of the older riders who have have put him to prepective have unfortuately passed away
 
I have always loved Totilas, I felt he had read the book, but last night it was Mistral Hojris night his last centre line made me cry, if Totilas had read the book Mistral wrote it. Totilas was awarded 10s everywere even when they wern't warrented. Its like the judges just expected to see perfection and jugded the name not what they saw which is a great shame for the sport and for Laura.
 
I think Totilas is a beautiful horse but feel very uncomdortable watching him tbh, i can't stand the thought of rolkur.

What I am not understanding though, is that pretty much everyone here sees what is lacking with his tests, esp with his back end, why do the judges not see this. Surely they know way more than most of us here and if we can see it, then why don't they? Is it just a case of the judges seeing him walking into the arena and thinking they will be lynched if he doesn't win, or maybe look stupid if they mark him lower as he has won everything else.

Just thought you might like to see this. It just looks so different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulF9XTRVMs
 
There are loads of comments on here that I agree and disagree with.
Would just like to point out that the Dutch Warmblood studbook originally rejected Totilas as an approved stallion. Various reasons. He has only been accepted this last year or so because of his performances. Time will tell if he can pass this ability onto his offspring and here they have been very sly by selecting only the best mares. He is a phenonenon but is it natural or trained and will it last?
I don't dislike him but think judges daren't mark him down for fear of being ridiculed? But then again this is just my opinion.
 
To all those who criticise him: what is it exactly that is so incorrect??

I agree I don't like his extravagant extensions and he does tend to go deep in the one tempis (he is TEN, surely he is allowed to be a little green there), but that's only two movements! Everything else is so perfect!

Come on, if one read this thread without having seen the horse one would think he drags his hindlegs all the time!

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Well, I have already said what I don't like about him.
In the above video, there was some 4 beat trot for example - OK, very slight, but still, I can see it and I am a SJ ;)
The overriding impression I get in his extensions, apart from being ''expressive'', there isn't much happening above his knee TBH, his frame backs off even more if anything, he doesn't extend, he just waves his legs about.
In half passes, his legs go way sideways before his body does.

But hey, who am I to judge, still, I hope I am allowed not to like him?

ETS - and he's overbent
 
Laura1812 said:
You obviously missed my first post

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

Now tell me what is correct about it? There is a lack of purity in ALL gaits with Totilas
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Diagonal dissociation (DAP) has been proven to be a characteristic of all top dressage horses. A lot of people actually consider it a positive trait! Try and read Dr Hilary Clayton's research into this. It's got nothing to do with training, it's just the way the horses move.

Here's a picture of Alf, a most classically-trained horse - yet the same diagonal dissociation we've seen in Totilas:

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As for the pirouette, pirouettes ARE in a 4-beat canter!!

Alf again. Precisely same image as Totilas..

kcfnee.jpg
 
This is a very interesting thread. I'll admit I'm no expert regarding dressage but watching him the last couple of nights had me wondering if I was alone in thinking a couple of horses did nicer tests! I'm glad to see other people are as confused as I am! :o

He's a very attractive horse and IMO his passage was stunning but he didn't look as if he were using his back end correctly in some movements - especially the changes and extensions. I did wonder if this was in comparision to such big movement in front but I've always thought that the correct way of going was a reasonably equal amount of lift and reach, front and behind?

I also had a wonder to myself whether, after he's been given such high scores, judges would feel obliged to continue in the same vein regardless of what they would normally give? Maybe it's even a tactical manoeuvre - he is after all bringing publicity to dressage!

I was definitely feeling very frustrated that Laura B was placed 2nd with such a fabulous test - IMO she should have won! Maybe I'm biased as a Brit but I thought Alf was incredible and certainly the best test I've seen! :D
 
Glad I'm not the only one who isn't terribly keen on him. He just didn't seem to move as fluidly as (eg) MH, his front end is very flashy but he doesn't seem to get the elevation and propulsion from his back end. I was stunned that his extended walk was scored so high, it seemed very stiff and stilted with hardly any extension. He seems to really try but just doesn't push through and work from behind enough. I know people are saying 'oh, but he is 10 he is allowed to be a little green'. Well, yes he is, but if he competes against others at this level then he needs to expect to be judged on a level with them, not 'well, he is a little green but is very good for his age'!

Sorry if this is a stupid question (not a horse physio so my understanding of musculature is basic at most!), with the top level dressage horses you get some with very triangular necks (just thinking of those for whom it isn't a breed characteristic) yet aren't very 'butty'. If dressage is all about correctness, a big part of this I understand is to be working from behind. So (very basically!) the quarters and back legs are the engine, with the neck as balance. Surely work rather than balance should result in larger muscles in that area?
 
Photos are only a moment in time - anyone can freeze frame a video and make the horse look bad!! I saw some recent amateur pictures of Alf and some of them he and Laura looked awful in!! Thats because they were just a moment in time and they were caught at the wrong moment that dosent provide a pleasing photo.

As for 4 beat canter, like FB said canter pirouette is ridden in 4 beat.

Yes Totilas has a very extravagant movement - but are you saying that the top judges in the world dont know what they are doing??

Laura and Alf's test was lovely, but some of Ed's transitions/preparations for movements where a lot better executed than Laura's which is where Ed picked up more marks than her.
 
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