Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..

I adore dressage - I don't know enough to have a proper opinion, but I watched his record breaking test on youtube, and was just expecting something a little 'more'...
 
Rebelzmum said:
Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we??? How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level? I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch). Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
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I'm sorry, but it's the same old ''you don't ride at that level so you can't have an opinion'' **** - this just doesn't wash. It doesn't work like that... Majority of men I know are rubbish at football, that doesn't stop them criticising teams and players, and neither should it.
I know only mothers can possibly have any opinion on children/parenting as well:rolleyes:
 
HappyHorses:) said:
^^ agreed^^

We have all, I'm sure, seen a dressage test that shouldn't have won a class but did because of who is riding. It's a shame but it does happen through all levels :(

I enjoy watching Totilas and Ed-G because they do look like a great partnership. I agree I personally don't think he tracks up very well and needs to improve on his changes but maybe thats because he has come up to this level at quite a young age and in doing so lost some of the naturalness (not a word?!) of the paces he showed as a 5 year old.
Everyone has a right to their point of view, I for one always think Lauras horses look very heavy in her hands, but to be world champion at such a young age must mean there is something special about him.

Each to their own tho. If we all liked the same thing the world would be pretty dull. :)
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I thought it was just me that couldn't stop looking at Laura's hands...

Still, mustn't say too much cus I sure couldn't do any better!!
 
Rebelzmum said:
Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we??? How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level? I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch). Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
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Actually, it IS a concern for anyone who competes dressage, we all work to a scale of training, the scale is intended to help the horse become a better athlete and to live a longer working life. If we see something that is not correct winning at top level we are of course allowed to question.

Ed Gal trains/ed with Anky VG, she is an advocate for Rolkur, every single horse trained this way seems to have this extravagant movement in front with very little following through from behind, I have never ever liked the way AVG's horses go, and, whilst I admire Totilas enormously, there is no getting away from the fact that he is obviously trained using Rolkur.
 
Rebelzmum said:
Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we??? How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level? I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch). Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
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Actually I have ridden Grand Prix dressage horses and worked for an Olympic Dressage rider helping her bring on her youngsters, I learnt loads from her and since then have become very involved in classical dressage, learning from Charles de Kunffy and Dr Gerd Herschmann
 
Thanks for that Lobelia_Overhill he looks great - as usual. I for one love him and do not have any desire to pick him apart. I appreciate everyone has their own opinions but to me he is a wonder horse.
 
I really really WANT to like the way this horse performs as I am a big trakehner fan and of course he is half trakehner :) However I do not like his trot movement as ridden in GP tests. This in particular irritates me but it is more nurture than nature. However, I am soured of modern competition dressage and what is considered important.

What I do like about him. He puts EVERYTHING into his peformance for his rider. IMHO this is where the extravegant legs come from in trot (together with his training). He is trying hard to please and putting his energy and athleticism into it big time hence the legs fly higher and higher just because they can. Some showjumpers buck with exhuberance - his legs just fly upwards.

As a sire for a foal to keep I would never pay the current £5000 stud fee. To sell maybe I would as already foals are selling in utero for high prices I have heard. Currently and for a long time to come he will be unproven as a sire of competition horses. He was initially rejected KWPN and I would want to know why. If it was for some defect in confirmation/movement then he may not produce 'pretty' show winners but I would think his name will carry prices for a long time. However that will only go so far if lots of foals are average movers. And of course compared to Totilas they will be average as his extreme movement is trained and mum is going to contribute half of the equation. Will buyers remember this and envisage that in 6 years time this foal hopefully has the genetic potential in tems of athleticism and rideability to move just like his dad or will they look at a nice, athletic youngster and be dissapointed that he is not already lifting his legs to his chin?

I think there are lots of stallions that reliably pass on athleticism and great movement that are WAY below £5000 stud fee. What would make me use Totiilas as a stallion for my own riding horse would be if he passes on what looks like a huge desire to please his rider. However whether he has rideability suitable for an amatuer is another thing yet again!
 
don't like Laura B's hands either but I'm not sure that he's just such a big moving horse that the overall picture is quite ugly or if she's/he's very strong in the hand. I find alot of top level competetive dressage quite ugly these days, still I seem to be in a minority.

I liked Fuego bestest :D but then I like Iberians, alot of people don't (stoopid people mainly :p )

I think Totilas has amazing passage and piaffe and he is apparently incredible in the flesh. he doesnt do alot for me but I like how he seems calm and relaxed when compared to some other top horses. if he has been rolkured then I don't think the end justifies the means however good he is.
 
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SirenaXVI said:
Actually, it IS a concern for anyone who competes dressage, we all work to a scale of training, the scale is intended to help the horse become a better athlete and to live a longer working life. If we see something that is not correct winning at top level we are of course allowed to question.

Ed Gal trains/ed with Anky VG, she is an advocate for Rolkur, every single horse trained this way seems to have this extravagant movement in front with very little following through from behind, I have never ever liked the way AVG's horses go, and, whilst I admire Totilas enormously, there is no getting away from the fact that he is obviously trained using Rolkur.
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^^what she said^^

Haven't followed top dressage for a while but my fave used to be Blue Hors Matine RIP. She was just gorgeous.
 
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As the owner of an international dressage horse I am no longer involved in the competition world for the many reasons that have been discussed on this thread. Believe me this is only the 'tip of a very large iceburg'. In dressage I have met some of the most amazing people I will ever meet and some of the worst.

I feel that I have advanced my dressage by now taking the classical route, as the compromises that needed to be made in the competition world were unacceptable for my horse and myself. We are both very happy now, the feeling of happiness and satisfaction I have now is so much greater than I have had in the past. I also have an amazing trainer. I started the classical route then as I see it deviated to current competition methods and now I have returned to what I consider to be the only and very best way to ride.
 
Mearas said:
As the owner of an international dressage horse I am no longer involved in the competition world for the many reasons that have been discussed on this thread. Believe me this is only the 'tip of a very large iceburg'. In dressage I have met some of the most amazing people I will ever meet and some of the worst.

I feel that I have advanced my dressage by now taking the classical route, as the compromises that needed to be made in the competition world were unacceptable for my horse and myself. We are both very happy now, the feeling of happiness and satisfaction I have now is so much greater than I have had in the past. I also have an amazing trainer. I started the classical route then as I see it deviated to current competition methods and now I have returned to what I consider to be the only and very best way to ride.
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^^^What Mearas said^^^^ I agree too. I ride classically and have a classical dressage trainer, whom I might add is hard to find. Modern dressage is not the same a classical, but am hoping that classical dressage will make a big comeback!
 
Wow I finally red the whole of this post!
Personally I find Totilas a bit short in the neck and not quite through behind. I also do think he is stunning to look at, and seems very obedient and willing so it very nice to watch. I do agree with a lot of you throughout this thread though.

But at the end of the day Edward Gal has trained the horse to WIN, which it does.
I think it is the judges we should be picking apart. I think a lot of judges become obesseed with the 'name'. A prefect example of this was a test Anky did a few years ago. It really annoyed me that the horse didn't HALT at the end of the test yet still won. If I was doing a prelim test but couldn't get my horse to halt what score would I get? If she couldn't get the horse to stand because it was so tense how is it realxed and obedient?

I might get shot for saying this, I don't know what yourr opinions are, but do you think dressage judges should have videos etc to judge from too, so they can see more angles (I know judes sit of different parts of the arena to do this and get different marks) but also have the ability to slow mo some movements???
I think flashy horse and movement can hide a multitude of sins as it distracts the judge!
 
i love totilas but putting that aside for a second i think that if his hind legs worked more you would find something wrong with something else he did. u can say hes not one of the best in the world and i doubt the people working with him think hes perfect but they know hes very good.
 
There is no doubt that Totillas is a beautiful, expressive, wonderful horse with a fabulous willing personality, but this is IMHO not what is being tested. What is being tested is his training, which from this thread would generally appear to have been accepted as incorrect. Just how much more wonderful expressive and beautiful would Totillas have been if he had been trained correctly?
 
Like astrid and mearas I am interested in classical dressage now and moving away from competition dressage. I love the feel of riding a well trained dressage horse and dancing in harmony with it. The feeling of passage is breathtaking. However lightness and harmony I don't feel are the way I need to train to win competitions where very different goals are in vouge. Perhaps as dominobrown says this is the fault of the judges or is it ultaimely the riders fault for letting the sport head this way? I have no idea. I just know it is a fight I don't want to win or care about winning. I'd rather ride at home and have fun.

I would love to have a ride on Totilas even though I am not mad about him. I think he would be great fun as he looks soft and obedient and as long as not asked for maximum extravegance would prob be a nice ride. He would probably dump me as unworthy though :D
 
eahotson said:
I adore Totilas .
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I think many of us can agree he is a really endearing horse, but is his movement correct? Although this may seem unimportant when you see a pretty picture ultiimately it will be the difference between Totillas having a long career or potentially being seriously lame within a few years.
 
asterid said:
^^^What Mearas said^^^^ I agree too. I ride classically and have a classical dressage trainer, whom I might add is hard to find. Modern dressage is not the same a classical, but am hoping that classical dressage will make a big comeback!
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Woo hoo! Me too, love classical (hence why I stopped following 'dressage'...)
 
I was there to watch the GP Freestyle last night. The crowd went absolutely wild for Fuego, but he looks a little like a trick pony, lovely but not true dressage. The same could be said for Totilas, who won despite mistakes. He does look as though he enjoys his work though and was completely relaxed throughout. For pure dressage, Laura was by far the best. Mistral moves beautifully and is very correct - they should have won.
 
I have just watched the video again of all 3 tests in the freestyle and cant help but think that MH should have wond followed by Fuego then T - I know nothing much about dressage but if the music is part of the show it was obvious how much more thought and planning had gone into Laura and the spanish riders tests rather than Edward Gals who was just doing a very nice test with some background music, whereas Alf and the spanish horse were working in time to the music - my completely unhorsey OH thought the same .....
 
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