Totilas, the poor horse that can't be left alone even in death

[shortstuff99]

I'm not sure if anyone has seen the court case currently ongoing between the original and current (until death) owners about frozen semen from Totilas. Further documents released have now revealed the purchase price of Totilas at €9.5 million!

What a sorry state of affairs when money means more then a living being.

https://eurodressage.com/2021/03/18/court-documents-reveal-totilas-sold-95-million-euro

 

[meleeka]

That’s a lot of frozen semen!

Sadly I think his whole life was about money in the end, so this doesn’t surprise me at all.

Given how he ended up, I’m not sure why someone would want his semen, which is presumably very expensive.

 

[Cortez]

That’s a lot of frozen semen!

Sadly I think his whole life was about money in the end, so this doesn’t surprise me at all.

Given how he ended up, I’m not sure why someone would want his semen, which is presumably very expensive.

Totilas is proving to be an extremely successful sire, so I'm sure there are plenty of people who will want to use his semen. What do you mean by "how he ended up"?

 

[meleeka]

Totilas is proving to be an extremely successful sire, so I'm sure there are plenty of people who will want to use his semen. What do you mean by "how he ended up"?

Didn’t he have soundness issues for quite a while? I’d think people would want a more ‘durable’ sire.

 

[Lady Jane]

@meleeka Warmbloods are not 'durable'. I've learnt the hard way. I won't have another but if I did, a Totilas offspring to something 'more durable' could be great (assuming I could ride it!). Durability, or lack of, is a great word for describing horses, now added to my vocabulary!

 

[Cortez]

Didn’t he have soundness issues for quite a while? I’d think people would want a more ‘durable’ sire.

Ha ha! Soundness is of course required in all sports horses, but I think you'll find that a large number of breeding horses (both mares and sires) are retired because they can no longer compete (due to unsoundness). It's even worse with Thoroughbreds. And no, I don't think this is OK, but it would rule out possibly the majority of available breeding stock.

 

[shortstuff99]

The big question for Totilas is was the soundness innate or due to his training?

I wonder about his offspring, the few I've seen move even weirder then Totilas did, can't be sustainable. But the breeders will push it as long as it makes them a load of money.

 

[Flicker]

I was always under the impression that a lot of soundness issues in elite performance horses stem from being started too young and hammered during their career. I firmly believe that if breeders, owners and trainers were a bit more patient and a bit less inclined to chase the £££ we’d see fewer issues. But that’s just my opinion and I’d be happy to be corrected if I’m talking nonsense.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I was always under the impression that a lot of soundness issues in elite performance horses stem from being started too young and hammered during their career. I firmly believe that if breeders, owners and trainers were a bit more patient and a bit less inclined to chase the £££ we’d see fewer issues. But that’s just my opinion and I’d be happy to be corrected if I’m talking nonsense.

I think that definitely plays a strong role. So does the whole hypermobile leg flinging freak of nature mover thing. They're breeding for extravagant movement, not soundness. This movement is not efficient nor is it natural, so this definitely decreases durability. Especially when you mix this combo with such large horses, which IME have a harder time staying sound anyway. Then you mix in the training as mentioned and yeah, it's a recipe for an unsound animal or without much longevity.

 

[ycbm]

I think that definitely plays a strong role. So does the whole hypermobile leg flinging freak of nature mover thing. They're breeding for extravagant movement, not soundness. This movement is not efficient nor is it natural, so this definitely decreases durability. Especially when you mix this combo with such large horses, which IME have a harder time staying sound anyway. Then you mix in the training as mentioned and yeah, it's a recipe for an unsound animal or without much longevity.

And nobody in and around the industry cares, as long as enough of them are winning medals.
.

 

[Flicker]

And nobody in and around the industry cares, as long as enough of them are winning medals.
.

And cash....

 

[oldie48]

@meleeka Warmbloods are not 'durable'. I've learnt the hard way. I won't have another but if I did, a Totilas offspring to something 'more durable' could be great (assuming I could ride it!). Durability, or lack of, is a great word for describing horses, now added to my vocabulary!

Warmbloods come in all shapes and sizes though, some are durable, some are not. TBH they are just like any other breed, perhaps what is different for the dressage horse, regardless of breeding, is that as it goes up the levels the athleticism required will seek out the little niggles that are in many ridden horses as they get older but go unnoticed. I'm sorry if you have had a bad experience with WBs it is so disappointing and sad. FWIW, I know rather a lot of Iberian horses with soundness issues but it wouldn't stop me buying one if it was the right horse for me.

 

[Leandy]

One does not want to transmit inherent unsoundnesses down the generations but I do think that some unsoundness niggles in top horses are overblown and talked about. If a horse is sound enough to be trained to top international level it is pretty sound and fit for work in my view. Compare to the number of unsound horses lolling around in fields which have never managed any level of performance. Inevitably, an athlete at the top of a sport is trained towards the limits of performance which goes hand in hand with stresses and strains, if it stayed within its comfort zone all the time it would not beat the competition. Personally I can forgive some niggles in aging top performers.

 

[milliepops]

If a horse is sound enough to be trained to top international level it is pretty sound and fit for work in my view.

this
I'm slightly staggered that someone could think that a horse that remains sound throughout training and international competition at GP is not fit for work, that is a HUGE test for any horse.

I also think the exaggerated movement is very closely linked to training received, as a young horse Totilas was an expressive mover but not to the extent that he showed at the top levels.

 

[tristar]

I was always under the impression that a lot of soundness issues in elite performance horses stem from being started too young and hammered during their career. I firmly believe that if breeders, owners and trainers were a bit more patient and a bit less inclined to chase the £££ we’d see fewer issues. But that’s just my opinion and I’d be happy to be corrected if I’m talking nonsense.

i agree with all of this, also turn out is crucial to me, i put a horse out at 8 this morning and i` say he`s walked 2 to 3 miles already by watching him out of the window picking out the grass, constant movement when they want to and resting when they want to is part of the picture of soundness and mental stability, which did not seem to be part of totilas`s life, he was difficult to turn out apparently and very often looked frustrated when ridden, if you take a hot horse and work it with a lot of tension that will contribute to breakdown

i would use toto due to his background breeding, and would not condemn him, i think you need to see past a lot of shite to see the real horse ,he breeds really well so far and of his close relatives, half brothers etc, some are very nice

he had the look of a horse who would take on the world and he certainly did, that aspect of himself, his own boldness is so appealing to me anyway

 

[CanteringCarrot]

this
I'm slightly staggered that someone could think that a horse that remains sound throughout training and international competition at GP is not fit for work, that is a HUGE test for any horse.

I also think the exaggerated movement is very closely linked to training received, as a young horse Totilas was an expressive mover but not to the extent that he showed at the top levels.

"Remains sound throughout" being the key there, that a lot seem to miss.

No one argued that a horse sound at GP is not fit for work? If a horse is sound and has a history of being sound at that level, it is definitely fit for work.

Perhaps in the case of Totilas the exaggerated movement was linked to training, but I've seen some young and/or green horses that are already very (maybe too much, depends on your preferences though) extravagant before training.

I think the thing is, for a lot of people, is should this be the gold standard? How extravagant does one have to be in order to stand out or be competitive? Is the soundness or lacktherof due to breeding or training? Or both? Those are the common questions that seem to surface when this horse is mentioned.

I think the "durability" of any breed can be at risk. This isn't exclusive to Warmbloods. It's related to how we choose to breed them, as well as what we expect out of them.

Totilas is not my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean he was a "bad horse" or not a good sire.

 

[milliepops]

it was the comments about wanting a durable sire. there is so much variation in training, lifestyle, accidents etc, though. unless all his progeny break down at an early age (and there are plenty coming through at the top levels now that I think that's not a given) then I think you can argue that Totilas is suitable for breeding.

I've been chewing this over myself, plotting my next generation, so it's definitely something that is uppermost in my mind, but often a stallion that has stayed sound into older age has not done anything like the work/performance of something like Totilas.... it's not really a like for like test and so i think it's very hard to weigh up which is more important. I want a horse that will perform AND last, the holy grail, I don't think it's very easy to figure that one out without a crystal ball.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Breeding certainly can be a gamble, even if you think you've got all your ducks in a row. There are some really well bred Warmbloods in my area that haven't amounted to much for a variety of reasons. Same with TB's, even with fantastic breeding, it may never win a race. Depends on your goals and expectations too. You can try to increase your odds, and that's about it.

I wonder what sort of mares Totilas is crossing best with? I haven't looked at it much. Just from a curiosity standpoint.

 

[Leandy]

With AI nowadays, sires, especially those which are popular for whatever reason, have many many many offspring. Most, however good they are, will have produced far more unexceptional or unproven offspring than they have proven successful ones. There are therefore more "well bred" unexceptional animals around than exceptional ones (by definition).

 

[windand rain]

Trouble is fashionable also shrinks the gene pool or puddle as someone described the Welsh D stud book

 

[shortstuff99]

There was an interesting article I read the other day that I now can't find. It analysed the top KWPN sires by percentage of offspring that made FEI level (rather then the number) and it changes the top sire rankings dramatically. Jazz drops down etc.

 

[milliepops]

There was an interesting article I read the other day that I now can't find. It analysed the top KWPN sires by percentage of offspring that made FEI level (rather then the number) and it changes the top sire rankings dramatically. Jazz drops down etc.

yes I saw that, think it was shared on a dressage breeders group on FB, will go have a sniff about.

eta eurodressage summary
https://www.eurodressage.com/2020/0...QJuAKivtl5b2V-vay7x1IQ-yvMEhXeYTK6cxeN7TtG-CE

 

[sbloom]

Once you start down the road of the sort of cpd that I do, you start to see that we have already bred blood horses way beyond what their structures, especially soft tissues, were designed for. Is there a horse at GP that doesn't have regular injections? Can we call them sound? And now the hypermobility/flexibility required to compete at the top levels, means it's even worse than it was 30 years ago.

 

[sbloom]

And to add - monotonous training, monotonous surfaces even if they're not too deep or bouncy...this is where our British riders do lead by example. I find the whole WB industry quite challenging.

 

[ycbm]

I worry about the hypermobility. There are a lot of people on the forum with hypermobility and they all seem to report constant pain. That sort of "whole body" pain doesn't always show as lameness.

My 6 year old is somewhat hypermobile and I've taken him very, very slowly to try to get strength from maturity before asking for too much effort. His ability and willingness to do what is obvious (to me) would be too much to ask is a recipe for disaster.

 

[milliepops]

I am hypermobile with some other associated bits and bobs but it's fairly mild, I just seem to be extra bendy rather than prone to dislocations and daily pain. I do have to work really hard on control because I'm like a floppy ragdoll otherwise. But it's a continuum, the pain I get is muscular relating to spasm rather than stuff getting injured, and correct form of movement is key for me.
I'd imagine the same applies to horses? ?

 

[ycbm]

I am hypermobile with some other associated bits and bobs but it's fairly mild, I just seem to be extra bendy rather than prone to dislocations and daily pain. I do have to work really hard on control because I'm like a floppy ragdoll otherwise. But it's a continuum, the pain I get is muscular relating to spasm rather than stuff getting injured, and correct form of movement is key for me.
I'd imagine the same applies to horses? ?

I agree but I struggle with how passage, canter pirouettes and piaffe on a properly hypermobile horse at the age they are training it in elite GP horses isn't asking for an early breakdown of most of them.

The question i ask myself over and over in all sorts of situations is why does the human race have to push everything to such extremes.
.

 

[milliepops]

I have a hypermobile native, I'd imagine there is more of it around than anyone notices, to a degree.. the wbs are the most obvious, granted

 

[ycbm]

I have a hypermobile native, I'd imagine there is more of it around than anyone notices, to a degree.. the wbs are the most obvious, granted

You didn't have her doing passage at 5 though, MP, did you? It's the age that bothers me, not the hypermobility. Ludo's hypermobility will be his greatest asset (alongside his temperament) if i can get him to physical maturity in one piece.
.

 

[windand rain]

The question i ask myself over and over in all sorts of situations is why does the human race have to push everything to such extremes.
.

Fashion, perception of beauty eg dished arab head was beautiful but now pushed to ugliness by exaggeration, and back to the non functioning flat faces dogs. I would also say the same applies in the show horse large big muscled horses with big bones are now big fat lumps on spindly legs. Mostly exacerbated by judges and so called experts. Hypermobility in dressage warmbloods has become almost essential in top class levels as that is what is winning an excellent but normal moving horse will often lose out to a flashy gangly one as it has become expected and has a wow factor to it