Track system livery

[paddy555]

You’re absolutely right, it’s a beautiful track with a very knowledgeable owner

I looked at your track (via FB) yesterday after your post in the HM thread which you most definitely do not trim that way (In case anyone thinks so)

You seem to have a lovely track and a lovely set up.

I would like to ask a question (which I appreciate you may not want to answer)
We have a thread going about horses stabled 24/7 etc and how unsuitable it is. One problem in changing is the cost both for the owner and the yard..

Can you (or anyone else) give an idea of the livery charge for track livery and what is included please? Just an ordinary horse not needing specialist foot care or special needs.
Thanks

 

[meleeka]

Mine are on a track during the summer months, because to have it all year would require £££ which I don't want to spend (to stop it becoming a mud pit). I find they do move around a lot more. They can get up some speed too which they couldn't do in a small paddock, so that helps keep them trim. I have escape areas in the corners for the shetlands and mine goes though a wooded area, so lots to explore and shade if wanted. I'd worry about bullying on a livery yard, but mine get on and the only one who might bully is much slower.

 

[m1stify]

Have a look at Sandy Hills Equine Livery in Ireland as a fantastic example of a track livery.

Sandy Hills Equine Livery | Gorey

Sandy Hills Equine Livery, Kilmuckridge. Gefällt 449 Mal · 127 Personen sprechen darüber. Natural Track System Livery for Retired and Non-Ridden Horses and Ponies located in Tinnaberna, Co. Wexford,...

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[Surbie]

Can you (or anyone else) give an idea of the livery charge for track livery and what is included please? Just an ordinary horse not needing specialist foot care or special needs.
Thanks

Local one here was around £450/month when my friend was there, but has limited spaces and I don't think it's surfaced so there is grass. It includes daily checks, hay and poo picking plus access to emergency stabling. Still cheaper than livery (£700-1000/month)

 

[SEL]

One I know is £65 pw - but it's mainly mud tracks & not a lot of variety from what I've heard. So OK for EMS probably.

BTW - cost a friend £20k to put a limestone "access" track around 5 acres if anyone wants to cost up putting in a decent system. I do a grass track around 3 acres for the price of tape & plastic posts.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I looked at your track (via FB) yesterday after your post in the HM thread which you most definitely do not trim that way (In case anyone thinks so)

You seem to have a lovely track and a lovely set up.

I would like to ask a question (which I appreciate you may not want to answer)
We have a thread going about horses stabled 24/7 etc and how unsuitable it is. One problem in changing is the cost both for the owner and the yard..

Can you (or anyone else) give an idea of the livery charge for track livery and what is included please? Just an ordinary horse not needing specialist foot care or special needs.
Thanks

I was paying £450 pcm (I think - can try to find old invoices to be sure if you want) when I was last on a track system a few years ago. I believe the prices has gone up now though.

If it suited your horse, I think it could be a good option.

However, I'll heavily caveat that with it didn't suit mine (and a number of other's) and I'm not convinced it was necessarily always better for the horses than on traditional yards. I also found it a difficult atmosphere so was grateful to go in the end!

Horse transformed again once on a 'normal' livery yard.

I'd possibly try another horse on another track system but it wouldn't be my first choice if there were other options available first.

Edited to add: Horse was healthy when went on the track but was undergoing veterinary investigations and treatment when he left as, we believe, a result of track life. He's still thriving a few years on living a normal yard and I've heard a similiar story a number of times.

Some horses did do well though in fairness, so do think it's quite a marmite thing. It worries me how much people advocate for them though, as I think if it doesnt suit it can be more stressful than 'normal' livery but this isn't often addressed - I've been shot down for even suggesting it in the past by fanatics!

I also missed the bit about what was included @paddy555: a minimum of x 2 checks a day including putting on/off fly masks etc, poo picking and forage was included in the livery. Hacking was good but not amazing in my opinion.

 

[frankieduck]

I think they are an excellent modern invention that can be great for managing horses with conditions like EMS and laminitis that might otherwise be restricted on turnout. However they're not for everyone. Some issues I know people who have liveries on track systems have experienced have been:

• Allergies developed from eating dry hay 24/7 - not all horses can cope with the dust and do better with getting some of their forage from grazing rather than having their nose in a bale of hay full time. One lady I know's 2 horses both developed a bad cough despite the hay being good quality, were on steroids and antibiotics on and off for 18 months, in the end she moved them and switched them onto haylage but has since transitioned to successfully feeding them dry hay again in the field with no problems. Not sure what it was about hay on the track that didn't suit them but it just didn't work for them.
• Many track systems feed hay 24/7 and ad-lib, which if you have one that won't self regulate isn't always ideal, I actually know a couple of people who had to move their horses from track systems because they were gaining a huge amount of weight that have done much better on a 'normal' yard with poor grazing and stabled overnight with soaked hay.

Like most things it's a good concept for many but it's horses for courses, depends very much on how the track is run and if it suits your individual horse.

 

[Landcruiser]

I have my young EMS mare on a track livery at the moment, it's costing me under £400 a month. I supply her feed/supplements but they give it 2x a day, plus hay and checks and poo picking. Rug changes and other services are available for extra cost. There are 2 gelding herds and a mare herd, all on separate tracks (about 40 horses total). The summer tracks are pretty large, I'm certainly getting my steps in as she's regularly at the furthest point when I go to get her. There is plenty of room for horses to pair off and form sub groups, and hay is stationed at points all around. Winter tracks are much smaller and not so great - my mare will be brought home before winter. This year it's been so dry that the summer tracks are all fully open months earlier than normal - they strip off the grass first and the tracks are packed earth for the most part.
Apart from making the EMS management easier (I have an old boy at home plus a foster pony), she's there for the social life, hers and mine - building her confidence hacking in company as she can be quite nappy on her own hacking from home. So far it's working really well and definitely the right choice for us at this time.
Something to consider - what happens if a horse is ill/needs to rest? At the livery where I am they build small pens out on the track, although there are stables available if needed. My mare did rehab in one of the pens 3 yrs ago, so she knew some of the mares before her current residency.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Edited to add: Horse was healthy when went on the track but was undergoing veterinary investigations and treatment when he left as, we believe, a result of track life. He's still thriving a few years on living a normal yard and I've heard a similiar story a number of times.

I'd be interested to know what treatment he needed, if you don't mind sharing. I can imagine several ways in which a horse could become compromised by living on a track 24/7 if it doesn't suit them. I like the concept of tracks overall, but my main concerns would be:

- Surfaces being too abrasive if the horse already has compromised feet, e.g. under-run heels and long toe. The concussive forces of being on a hard surface 24/7 would also concern me, which is why I think variety of surfaces is important. Several track liveries are 100% anti-grass though, so those horses will always be on a surface of some kind. Boots of course can help.

-Small holed haynets 24/7 leading to neck and posture issues requiring bodywork. Plus dust/asthma from a hay only diet. Don't get me started on not supplementing minerals.

-When the environment is too flat, sterile and not enriching enough. If they're more wildlife centric then the horses will benefit too from hedge browsing etc.

-Mud in Winter on unsurfaced tracks. I've seen some shocking examples of horses stood in hock deep mud and I disagree with that personally as I know it doesn't take much for a horse to get thrush and mud fever from a churned up gateway, plus straining tendons wading through it.

On the plus side there are some terrific examples out there, but I wouldn't be happy with the above.

 

[paddy555]

I have my young EMS mare on a track livery at the moment, it's costing me under £400 a month. I supply her feed/supplements but they give it 2x a day, plus hay and checks and poo picking. Rug changes and other services are available for extra cost. There are 2 gelding herds and a mare herd, all on separate tracks (about 40 horses total). The summer tracks are pretty large, I'm certainly getting my steps in as she's regularly at the furthest point when I go to get her. There is plenty of room for horses to pair off and form sub groups, and hay is stationed at points all around. Winter tracks are much smaller and not so great - my mare will be brought home before winter. This year it's been so dry that the summer tracks are all fully open months earlier than normal - they strip off the grass first and the tracks are packed earth for the most part.
Apart from making the EMS management easier (I have an old boy at home plus a foster pony), she's there for the social life, hers and mine - building her confidence hacking in company as she can be quite nappy on her own hacking from home. So far it's working really well and definitely the right choice for us at this time.
Something to consider - what happens if a horse is ill/needs to rest? At the livery where I am they build small pens out on the track, although there are stables available if needed. My mare did rehab in one of the pens 3 yrs ago, so she knew some of the mares before her current residency.

this is turning out to be such an interesting thread

if you don't mind me asking is that Ari's daughter? when you say EMS do you mean tested or just the obvious conclusion. Ari lives off grass. If he didn't we would have to widen the stable doors to get him in. He lived out 24/7 before he came and it did him no good at all. (that was not with L in case anyone who knows him is wondering)

 

[SEL]

Although I keep mine on a grass track during the summer at home I doubt either of my mares would do well on a commercial track. The pssm/EMS mare is tricky around other horses and humans - very defensive over food. I'm also yet to find her off button! Mine do not have ad lib hay.

The little mare had tie back surgery & needs to eat off the ground so hay nets are out for her & all tracks feed via net. She's fine on grass providing its rationed (plus has shoes on due to her wonky feet)

 

[paddy555]

-Small holed haynets 24/7 leading to neck and posture issues requiring bodywork. Plus dust/asthma from a hay only diet. Don't get me started on not supplementing minerals.

I must be a bit gormless as I never thought they had dry hay. Whilst it is pretty obvious I would never feed it dry because of the dust.
I also wonder (as I have had a Vit E def. horse) what happens about vit E supp. for horses who are probably permanently off grass. Plus other minerals of course Se being one of them.

I have a couple of ponies who would probably be fine on a track but the rest would either bully or be bullied. I have a couple who would end up massive as they would just eat all day even out of small mesh nets.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I'd be interested to know what treatment he needed, if you don't mind sharing. I can imagine several ways in which a horse could become compromised by living on a track 24/7 if it doesn't suit them. I like the concept of tracks overall, but my main concerns would be:

- Surfaces being too abrasive if the horse already has compromised feet, e.g. under-run heels and long toe. The concussive forces of being on a hard surface 24/7 would also concern me, which is why I think variety of surfaces is important. Several track liveries are 100% anti-grass though, so those horses will always be on a surface of some kind. Boots of course can help.

-Small holed haynets 24/7 leading to neck and posture issues requiring bodywork. Plus dust/asthma from a hay only diet. Don't get me started on not supplementing minerals.

-When the environment is too flat, sterile and not enriching enough. If they're more wildlife centric then the horses will benefit too from hedge browsing etc.

-Mud in Winter on unsurfaced tracks. I've seen some shocking examples of horses stood in hock deep mud and I disagree with that personally as I know it doesn't take much for a horse to get thrush and mud fever from a churned up gateway, plus straining tendons wading through it.

On the plus side there are some terrific examples out there, but I wouldn't be happy with the above.

He was under being treated for metabolic related lameness and at the very start of general personality/neurology changes (I was v.concerned about his resting and sleeping patterns). He was sound and clear of metabic symptoms when he went but was lame, had put on a lot of weight and developed EMS whilst on the track.

The metabolic lamemess went almost as soon as I moved and the EMS has now been reversed. We've never had any problems resting or sleeping since either.

I think he found the track v. claustrophobic as despite being pretty wide in track terms and with loafing/resting areas, it's difficult to get lateral space away from other horses. I just don't think he ever felt settled enough to truly rest and I think that can do a lot of havoc to their nervous systems over time. Plus he was totally smart enough to work out he can park himself at a hay station and not really move from it (and a big enough character to defend it). He's v.stoic and an internal worrier - outwardly, unless you know him well, you'd think he was generally fine on the track.

I do know of a couple of horses that went to big equine hospitals for full neurology & lameness investigations though, who had no issues pre-track and have all recovered back on 'normal' livery (although of course, we all know horses can go lame at any time in any set up).

I'll hold my hands up and say I'm not claiming to have a perfect set up where I am now, as it's not. Nor am I suggesting a commercial track system = automatically bad, I'm absolutely not!

If I had the option, I'd try a track around the edge of a field But for now a mixture of being able to soak hay, restricting grazing by strip grazing and bare pens & stabling works really well for us and it can be tweaked to what he needs at a given time. And I fully appreciate some devotees of tracks would be horrified by his life now on paper and that's fine too, it's horses for courses but I definitely have a sound, happy horse off of a track system.

 

[Landcruiser]

this is turning out to be such an interesting thread

if you don't mind me asking is that Ari's daughter? when you say EMS do you mean tested or just the obvious conclusion. Ari lives off grass. If he didn't we would have to widen the stable doors to get him in. He lived out 24/7 before he came and it did him no good at all. (that was not with L in case anyone who knows him is wondering)

Yes, she's one of his. She tested positive for EMS last Sept, unusual as she's only just approaching her 6th birthday and not obese (but a very good doer). She just kept being really footy despite very restricted grazing, responded really well to Metformin (which she's no longer on).
Re your question about supplements, Bird gets fed twice a day which I provide bagged up in sandwich bags, with Forage Plus winter balancer plus extra Vit E in Finer Forage "Hoof it" chaff blend. All the horses have their own feeds although I think I'm the only owner providing bagged up feeds. Yard staff feed a herd at a time and stand guard so nobody is bullied off their food - it works better than I would have imagined, having watched this process a few times.
The hay is fed dry, in normal size hole nets tied at ground level, either to the bottom of posts or in big open feeders. They make their own, some of it is wrapped. It doesn't seem dusty, and I don't hear coughing on the tracks. All horses are barefoot.

 

[awelshandawarmblood]

Very interesting thread!
My older lad is going onto a track livery this month & hoping it'll suit him to the ground. They have hay stations all round, bedded barns & mostly grass free unsurfaced, the track is huge though with sandpits, hedgerows & areas of trees for variety so its not a completely bald & surfaced place like some.
I'm not willing to let him back on a commercial livery at his age. He cant cope with the lack of movement or dust indoors. Most yards in our area have extremely restricted winter turnout, its non existent, or what they do have is individual small paddocks which he wouldn't cope with.

 

[rara007]

about 1000km and offers many feeding stations, enrichment such at logs, mounds, scratching posts etc

Sadly I assume that’s a typo! Be very interesting set up if not.

 

[paddy555]

Yes, she's one of his. She tested positive for EMS last Sept, unusual as she's only just approaching her 6th birthday and not obese (but a very good doer). She just kept being really footy despite very restricted grazing, responded really well to Metformin (which she's no longer on).
Re your question about supplements, Bird gets fed twice a day which I provide bagged up in sandwich bags, with Forage Plus winter balancer plus extra Vit E in Finer Forage "Hoof it" chaff blend. All the horses have their own feeds although I think I'm the only owner providing bagged up feeds. Yard staff feed a herd at a time and stand guard so nobody is bullied off their food - it works better than I would have imagined, having watched this process a few times.
The hay is fed dry, in normal size hole nets tied at ground level, either to the bottom of posts or in big open feeders. They make their own, some of it is wrapped. It doesn't seem dusty, and I don't hear coughing on the tracks. All horses are barefoot.

thanks.

re your first para (minus the metformin) this was my haflinger. Once he got fully grown I am pretty sure he went into EMS and footy. Another very good doer breed. Sadly that as 20 years ago and the info was just not there then (or at least I didn't know it)

thanks for the info on supplements and hay.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Very interesting thread!
My older lad is going onto a track livery this month & hoping it'll suit him to the ground. They have hay stations all round, bedded barns & mostly grass free unsurfaced, the track is huge though with sandpits, hedgerows & areas of trees for variety so its not a completely bald & surfaced place like some.
I'm not willing to let him back on a commercial livery at his age. He cant cope with the lack of movement or dust indoors. Most yards in our area have extremely restricted winter turnout, its non existent, or what they do have is individual small paddocks which he wouldn't cope with.

Where abouts?


Id a track is well run then it can be a god send for some horses, but owners of tracks and horses need to know when its time to call it and say the track isnt suiting the horse.

The owner of Abbots View Track livery in buckinghamshire has a book on how she built her track and has a bit at the back on horses that thrived on the track and those that didnt. Hers is very well run and set out

 

[paddy555]

Thank you, we've worked very hard on it over the last 12 years

Regarding charges for track livery it can range quite a lot and this is based on how simple the track is and surfacing costs. An unsurfaced track may start around as low as £350 up to around £700pcm for the all singing and closer to high cost areas in general. It tends to include all daily care along with hay and bedding costs. Some include worming, and feed, others don't.

thanks for you reply