Trained or shut down??

[stormox]

Inspired by a comment on a recent thread which basically said a lot of quiet, bombroof horses aren't quiet, just shut down by training.
Is this true?
When does training and schooling turn into "shutting down"?
I have always thought we should train our horses to be quiet and well-mannered under as many different conditions as possible.

 

[Jenko109]

I believe so.

I saw a video recently of a child hanging all over a donkey, before eventually slipping slowly down its neck and over its head.

Donkey appeared pretty shut down to me. Like he just accepts he has to tolerate being used like a climbing frame.

 

[stormox]

Donkey appeared pretty shut down to me. Like he just accepts he has to tolerate being used like a climbing frame.

I am not sure a donkey would know how "being used like a climbing frame" is different from being used to trot circles in arena or pull a common cart though.
It is surely only us humans know the difference.....

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

There are some incredibly talented people who achieve great results with "liberty training". For the vast majority of us, I think it's safer for all involved if the horse by and large does what it's told without question most of the time. And then they should also get many hours a day out with their friends doing whatever they want.

I have done a small amount of work with a charity and seen a couple of genuinely shut down horses. These horses don't just suspend their own opinions whilst with their human- they don't engage with anything at all. Mostly they have never had the opportunity for "down time", they're always "behaving themselves" (or trying desperately not to attract unpleasant attention onto themselves). Totally different thing from a horse that's been trained to tie up and stand still for half an hour at a time.

 

[stangs]

One look at a horse’s face should tell you all you need to know. A horse in learned helplessness is going to have a much tenser, unhappier expression than a horse who’s carefully and kindly been desensitised to a stimulus, and therefore no longer fears or gets upset by it.

A particularly obvious sign with bombproof hacks is when a horse has its ears back the whole time, and never shows any interest in its surroundings.

It turns into learned helplessness when the horse is never allowed to express any opinion, when the stress is chronic and inescapable.

 

[Cortez]

I believe so.

I saw a video recently of a child hanging all over a donkey, before eventually slipping slowly down its neck and over its head.

Donkey appeared pretty shut down to me. Like he just accepts he has to tolerate being used like a climbing frame.

That's just some donkeys TBH; mine have all been quite "whatever......" about life. Funnily enough the most shut down and generally miserable horses I've come across have been the supposedly "joined up" desensitised "Natural Horsemanship-y" ones. The most secure in themselves have been properly trained dressage horses.

 

[Jambarissa]

There are definitely some that are just shut down. I think it's called learned helplessness?

Used to be a fell trained at medium dressage at my yard. Wonderful pony but the owner went absolutely off it in a violent way at any deviation from what she wanted (suspect mh issues!). Pony was absolutely perfect at everything but it never behaved naturally unless in the field with it's friends.

But, I do think bombproof can be a natural thing. My old cob couldn't give a sh*t when the tractor drove past in the field practically touching him because he had found a nice herb in the hedge and refused to leave it.

And I do think a level can be learned. Familiarisation is important. A friend bought a bombproof cob from the depths of Wales, he didn't bat an eyelid at heavy farm machinery or herd of cows but went mental on meeting a kid in a push along bike.

Really it's trust in the rider that matters. Horses trust the herd leader, they'll follow her through water and down a cliff without question. You can build that trust by introducing scary objects and telling the horse they're OK and him finding you were telling the truth. But you need to be able to read the horse and move at the right pace. Too many people flood them and then think they're bombproof when in fact they're just terrified but quiet.

 

[Jenko109]

I am not sure a donkey would know how "being used like a climbing frame" is different from being used to trot circles in arena or pull a common cart though.
It is surely only us humans know the difference.....

No. I suppose not. I see what you mean. I did not understand the assignment.

 

[MuddyMonster]

They absolutely can be shut down but I wouldn't assume every well trained horse is shut down.I actually feel a bit sad if people automatically assume a well trained horse is indeed shut down.

I've done a lot of groundwork, have had natural horsemanship lessons, learnt about horse psychology, how they learn etc and how to be the best human I can be for them, I hack a lot and compete in Trec and has competed in horse agility where you need a well trained, reliable partner to do useful things. I train with emphatic people who really get horses and want to train them with fairness not the latest 'fad'.

Pony has been taught to do things like stand without being held, has been (carefully) exposed to things like trailing ropes/things behind him/ flappy things around, loud noises etc. As an extension of that we've messed about with flags, horse back archery, horse agility, working equitation and stuff at liberty (although walking, trotting and cantering alongside me, rein back and shoulder in is about the extent of it )

But he's always been allowed his opinion and chance to feed back what he thinks with me and that's taken on board.

Pony also is regularly known to un tie himself, un-do gates, hold zips on jackets and coats ransom until you have to give a treat, he'll squeel out hacking to go faster and generally regards 'steaaaaaady' as background noise and if feeling very sassy, will just shake his head at you. But will always come back when he know he needs to. Trying to have a cup of tea or Pimms at the pub. He'll be there to share it. Put your hands in your pocket? You best be getting a treat out. Not focusing 100% on him, you betcha he knows it and will use that opportunity to mostly gain a snack advantage.Walking too slowly to the field or stopped to long to chat? He'll nudge you in the back to make you go faster

But if you need him to step up and help you out, he'll do it in a second. He'll stand in gateways to let a scary tractor/motorbike or whatever else go, he'll tolerate a loose dog or whole host of other things. He damn well wants his good boy treat and praises for doing so and will get most miffed and let you know he's miffed in uncertain terms if he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.

He's a strong native character who has a history of being nappy, hard to catch and with a spin and a spook default setting. He's still got all of that, he just knows he just doesn't need to use it all the time as he's heard.

I find when you have their trust and built a partnership, the rest comes with time.

Well trained? I like to think so, mostly. Happy? I do my best to ensure so wherever possible. Shut down? Definitely not.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Inspired by a comment on a recent thread which basically said a lot of quiet, bombroof horses aren't quiet, just shut down by training.
Is this true?
When does training and schooling turn into "shutting down"?
I have always thought we should train our horses to be quiet and well-mannered under as many different conditions as possible.

I said on that thread that the comment was a load of rubbish and I stand by that. Training and sc hooling do not, of and in themselves, cause horses to shut down. Some methods of training may well do so and inconsistency will almost certainly cause horses of a certain temperament to shut down, while it will cause others to become very bolshy.
Horses who are well trained whilst being encouraged to express their own personalities will not be shut down.

 

[Peglo]

My TB was (i think) shut down when I got her. When I went to see her before I bought her we jumped into her stable and she didn’t even look at us. She was very…. bland if you like. I think she spent most of her time in her stall. After a while out on grass with friends she came out of herself a lot. She had many opinions about things and I always had to ask politely if I wanted something from her but she was always bombproof in traffic. She didn’t like piles of metal in fields or goats though.

My first pony was also bombproof in traffic but she didn’t like pigs. But being the sweetheart she was she would just snort at them rather than do anything.

Both of the above horses had been well trained in traffic (by other people I may add) but their personalities shone through.

 

[wills_91]

I believe so.

I saw a video recently of a child hanging all over a donkey, before eventually slipping slowly down its neck and over its head.

Donkey appeared pretty shut down to me. Like he just accepts he has to tolerate being used like a climbing frame.

Was this on FB just a few days ago, part of an animal therapy team that do visits to old folks homes?

 

[Jenko109]

Was this on FB just a few days ago, part of an animal therapy team that do visits to old folks homes?

On Tiktok, maybe two weeks ago? Video didn't appear to be in the UK so I doubt it.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

In all Mt years with horses I have only ever seen one horse truly shut down. It was a sorry sight. Horse looked so defeated. The owner of the horse said he just didn't do anything wrong. In the stable he would just stand with his head down. Riding, he would do what was asked then just stand with his head down. It was awful.

 

[Lexi 123]

I said on that thread that the comment was a load of rubbish and I stand by that. Training and sc hooling do not, of and in themselves, cause horses to shut down. Some methods of training may well do so and inconsistency will almost certainly cause horses of a certain temperament to shut down, while it will cause others to become very bolshy.
Horses who are well trained whilst being encouraged to express their own personalities will not be shut down.

Training definitely can I was the poster who made this comment bullying a horse into submission and not react is often methods used to bombproof a horse. it’s not in a horse nature to not be spooky as it a evolved trait especially in a extreme example that was told on that tread . This is a video explaining shut down horses. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJGuYFNa/

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

. This is a video explaining shut down horses. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJGuYFNa/

Oh pleeeeezzzzz. Do give your fellow forum members some credit and don't be so patronising.

 

[Lexi 123]

Oh pleeeeezzzzz. Do give your fellow forum members some credit and don't be so patronising.

Don’t want to start a fight but same could be said for the other poster saying it bs because they are also old school trained and ignorant to new concepts . It seems on this forum Anyone who has a different opinion gets shot down especially when it contradicts old school training methods . I was also mentioning it to stop someone from getting killed by buying a shut down horse that could exploded it important to know.

 

[Cortez]

Training definitely can I was the poster who made this comment bullying a horse into submission and not react is often methods used to bombproof a horse. it’s not in a horse nature to not be spooky as it a evolved trait especially in a extreme example that was told on that tread . This is a video explaining shut down horses. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJGuYFNa/

Well, that was a good laugh/time I'll never get back. Some horses are spooky, some are not, just like people they do differ. Good training is all about working with the horse to explain what he is being asked to do so that he understands and isn't worried by it. That won't cause a horse to shut down.

 

[Cortez]

Don’t want to start a fight but same could be said for the other poster saying it bs because they are also old school trained and ignorant to new concepts . It seems on this forum Anyone who has a different opinion gets shot down especially when it contradicts old school training methods . I was also mentioning it to stop someone from getting killed by buying a shut down horse that could exploded it important to know.

Lexi, I think you might be conflating people not agreeing with you with being shot down. Just because some of us are older than god doesn't necessarily mean we don't have a clue, in fact it might mean that we've seen a lot of things that don't work at all well, as well as stuff that absolutely does. Just a thought.

*curiously I've yet to see an exploded horse, shut down or not.

 

[Time for Tea]

There are definitely some that are just shut down. I think it's called learned helplessness?

Used to be a fell trained at medium dressage at my yard. Wonderful pony but the owner went absolutely off it in a violent way at any deviation from what she wanted (suspect mh issues!). Pony was absolutely perfect at everything but it never behaved naturally unless in the field with it's friends.

But, I do think bombproof can be a natural thing. My old cob couldn't give a sh*t when the tractor drove past in the field practically touching him because he had found a nice herb in the hedge and refused to leave it.

And I do think a level can be learned. Familiarisation is important. A friend bought a bombproof cob from the depths of Wales, he didn't bat an eyelid at heavy farm machinery or herd of cows but went mental on meeting a kid in a push along bike.

Really it's trust in the rider that matters. Horses trust the herd leader, they'll follow her through water and down a cliff without question. You can build that trust by introducing scary objects and telling the horse they're OK and him finding you were telling the truth. But you need to be able to read the horse and move at the right pace. Too many people flood them and then think they're bombproof when in fact they're just terrified but quiet.

This rang a bell with me. I had a NF pony who was just naturally bombproof, my two small (then) kids could climb all over him and slide off down his tail. He didn’t care about kites, or anything he met really. He was full of ideas and character and not suffering from anything! Ears always forward.

Also the comment on flooding them. I think I have seen this. I knew someone who wanted me to give a lead for his new pony through a stream. It was a wide stream which ran under an old railway bridge, very dark and spooky. We did the lead thing, and after a few false starts he got him through. Cue praise and repeat a couple of times. I thought that would be it for the days lesson. But no. To my amazement he then wanted to be given a lead up the bank onto the old railway, down the extremely steep bank the other side and then jump off the bank into the water. Not a manoeuvre I ever did. I got my amazed pony to give him a lead, he did bless him. His would not go. He had only had him a few days so they didn’t know each other really. No trust yet. Anyway he absolutely forced him and repeated it and repeated it. He thought he needed to get used to it so it was easy for him thereafter. Well the next thing I hear a few weeks later, he has bolted with him, hacking. Then he bolted in a lesson. I suppose it wasn‘t learned helplessness, rather panic that could be triggered.

 

[cauda equina]

Lexi, I think you might be conflating people not agreeing with you with being shot down. Just because some of us are older than god doesn't necessarily mean we don't have a clue, in fact it might mean that we've seen a lot of things that don't work at all well, as well as stuff that absolutely does. Just a thought.

*curiously I've yet to see an exploded horse, shut down or not.

Well I expect that's because you bombproofed yours properly

 

[toppedoff]

That's just some donkeys TBH; mine have all been quite "whatever......" about life. Funnily enough the most shut down and generally miserable horses I've come across have been the supposedly "joined up" desensitised "Natural Horsemanship-y" ones. The most secure in themselves have been properly trained dressage horses.

I've always felt like with natural horsemanship especially a few who do things with 5 horses all at once. I suppose the same as liberty too.. Never got how it showed a bond but is it just showing a understanding of a command or routine? Genuine question and curiosity

 

[Auslander]

I tried ground work with Alf once. He was not shut down - he just thought it was the dullest thing I'd ever suggested he do...

 

[Cortez]

I've always felt like with natural horsemanship especially a few who do things with 5 horses all at once. I suppose the same as liberty too.. Never got how it showed a bond but is it just showing a understanding of a command or routine? Genuine question and curiosity

I think endless repetition and routine is probably more likely to cause horses to basically give up hope than anything else. I worked mostly with display and stunt horses for the latter part of my career, and have seen more pee'd off horses in those areas than in the general run of competition, hobby, or even abuse case horses. Horses shut down when they can see no way out, no reason, in the actions they are being subjected to.

 

[toppedoff]

I think endless repetition and routine is probably more likely to cause horses to basically give up hope than anything else. I worked mostly with display and stunt horses for the latter part of my career, and have seen more pee'd off horses in those areas than in the general run of competition, hobby, or even abuse case horses. Horses shut down when they can see no way out, no reason, in the actions they are being subjected to.

Thank you, very interesting

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Training definitely can I was the poster who made this comment bullying a horse into submission and not react is often methods used to bombproof a horse. it’s not in a horse nature to not be spooky as it a evolved trait especially in a extreme example that was told on that tread . This is a video explaining shut down horses. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJGuYFNa/

I understand shut down horses thank you !
You will have to come and meet my bombproof cob and then you can tell me if you think she is shut down.

The day I viewed her, aged just 2, we took her out inhand, down a steep narrow road into a small town centre, she was perfectly happy to pass/be passed by; a double-decker bus, a man pressure-washing his car at the side of the road, a motor-bike, a dog barking behind a gate, and a gardener's Land-rover pulling a trailer full of rattling tools. She was interested in everything she saw, certainly switched on rather than off but naturally unflappable.

All the others that I mentioned on the other post have been leaders, either of the herd, or certainly of the group when out and about. The Clydesdale mare once took her own companion, who was frightened of big vehicles in narrow spaces and another, nervous, Clydie and a pony that we happened to meet along the way, past a bus in the village.
They have been very characterful, confident horses and we have loads of memories of them all that still make us laugh, even though all but the cob are now long gone.

I also volunteer with RDA. Those horses/ponies have to be bombproof, they are not shut down either. They each work a maximum of 5 hours per week, spread over 2/3 days and hack in between sessions. They all live out, in 2 separate herds, with their own friends are perfectly free to express themselves but are not reactive animals.
I am sorry that you have never met calm well-trained horses who enjoy life.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I think endless repetition and routine is probably more likely to cause horses to basically give up hope than anything else. I worked mostly with display and stunt horses for the latter part of my career, and have seen more pee'd off horses in those areas than in the general run of competition, hobby, or even abuse case horses. Horses shut down when they can see no way out, no reason, in the actions they are being subjected to.

Exactly this.
People think that once the horse stops reacting to whatever they're flapping around, it's "trained ". When the horse has just given up as whatever it does , the flapping doesn't stop , so the horse stops trying. I find that really sad.

How I recognise a shut down horse - this horse will likely be sluggish to ride, maybe doesn't lead nicely (you have to drag it) , generally seems disinterested in surroundings.
Whereas a desensitised horse I'd expect to react to things but not over react,. and I'd expect it to accept that something is safe and OK when the rider/handler indicates that it is.
Horses will always react and spook at things but a trained and desensitised horse won't over react.

 

[rextherobber]

My EDT says that polo ponies are almost all shut down, I know zilch about polo, so I wouldn't know, but have met retired ex polo ponies at livery yards, now used as PC /general riding horses, and they have all been bland (as someone mentioned above), and have almost without exception been terrible to catch - the only time any real character/opinion seems to appear.

 

[Cloball]

Two jets passed super low over me the other day and my pony didn't even flinch not that this is something I've trained does that count as bombproof? She's certainly not shut down she's a native pony with strong opinions.

I'm not sure I can credit myself with much as she trains herself spooked at a tree stump, snorted and stared, assessed it, marched up to it, sniffed it and decided it was fine. Hasn't looked at it since

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

*curiously I've yet to see an exploded horse, shut down or not.

Did you ever watch Inside Nature's Giants when they dissected the racehorse? They exploded its tendon! They put the limb under the pressure it would be as the single weight bearing limb of the gallop stride then nicked the edge of it, the rest went bang and snapped back like an elastic band! So cool!