Trained or shut down??

[stormox]

Did you ever watch Inside Nature's Giants when they dissected the racehorse? They exploded its tendon! They put the limb under the pressure it would be as the single weight bearing limb of the gallop stride then nicked the edge of it, the rest went bang and snapped back like an elastic band! So cool!

Yes, brilliant programme. And showed why horses breathe each canter stride.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yes, brilliant programme. And showed why horses breathe each canter stride.

It was really quite interesting and it can still be found on YouTube I think.

 

[AdorableAlice]

At last, an interesting topic on the forum. I bought what turned out to be a shut down horse in 2004. It took 18 months for him to start to interact with me. He was a quality competition horse, but totally institutionalised. Impeccable manners, kind and an incredible ride. He was a late cut stallion (8) and big, so manners and obedience were essential, but he did not have a scrap of character.

Nearly 30 now and it was a humbling experience getting to know him and getting him enjoying life again.

 

[gunnergundog]

So, until I moved my horses abroad, I kept them on a yard where the nearest neighbour had his own helicopter and heli-pad; to leave our property we had to go down a single track at close proximity to the heli-pad. All the horses (5* eventers that have been around Badminton, hunters, and youngsters and everything in between) would ultimately walk past on a loose rein when the chopper was taking off or landing. Are you seriously telling me that a Badminton horse is shut down??

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I had a Clydesdale mare who joined in a Charity bed-push once! Sister and I hadn't realised that the bed-push was going round the village at the exact time that we set off hacking. These were genuine rattly metal hospital beds on little wheels, that made a heck of a noise. We found ourselves following one bed whilst being followed by another. When we got to the end of the road, we turned left and the beds turned right, the mare wanted to turn right towards the spectators who were clapping and cheering I would call that bombproof but definitely not shut down, although she did sulk a bit when I insisted that we turn off.

 

[SEL]

My big lad was pretty shut down when he came out of the circus and it was lovely seeing his personality appear. He'd tolerate kids crawling all over him because he adored them. Kids birthday party at the yard? A large nose attached to a large horse would appear and invite himself in. He'd tolerate behaviour from kids that would see him disappearing at speed if an adult tried it.

Absolutely not bombproof though. In fact a pretty large wimp.

My littlest cob though is an independent soul and I call her bombproof. The combine went past within a foot of us on Friday and although she was unsettled (so was I!) she just jiggled on the spot. Not bombproof with cows though. Hates them

 

[ycbm]

I've had a number of shut down ex race horses who typically took about 3 months to begin to show their real character. I can't agree that shut down horses always look unhappy, ime they don't. They're just abnormally unreactive. Some look a bit dead in the eyes but many don't. They look normal until you get them to come out of their shells and show you what their normal character really is.

My current ex racer showed that he was shut down by completely failing to notice squirrels and birds running almost under his feet. It was a good day, for me, when he started to say "oh look, squirrel". I could have done without him insisting that the wood pigeon sat on the cross country fence 100m away had form for eating horses the other day, but that's a training issue .

 

[stangs]

To be clear, what do people consider learned helplessness versus being 'shut down', or is there even a difference?

To me, a horse who's utterly irresponsive, like some 'bombproof' hacks as was referred to in the OP, is a horse in a state of learned helplessness. They're chronically stressed so they always look unhappy. Whereas a horse who doesn't chose to interact with people or 'show character' I consider more along the lines of shut down, and Peglo describes their look perfectly. Seems to me that most of the latter are horses who've experienced massive changes (e.g., leaving racing, coming over from Ireland) and therefore have withdrawn into themselves.

 

[jules9203]

I've trained a lot of youngsters and they are well behaved, not shut down. I've had a few that (many yrs ago) were not treated as I would have but they have come through it. The worst one I ever had was a 3yr old ex racehorse. When I bought him I mistakenly thought he was quiet. He was really shut down. Over the 6 months I had him he became very aggressive. To other horses and people. Unfortunately we lost him to sycamore poisoning. I felt so guilty as he never had a proper chance

 

[stangs]

I've always felt like with natural horsemanship especially a few who do things with 5 horses all at once. I suppose the same as liberty too.. Never got how it showed a bond but is it just showing a understanding of a command or routine? Genuine question and curiosity

Liberty shows (imo) are largely just the traditional equestrian circus acts, but rebranded to be about 'bond' to appeal to modern audiences.

 

[gunnergundog]

Liberty shows (imo) are largely just the traditional equestrian circus acts, but rebranded to be about 'bond' to appeal to modern audiences.

Do you classify Kathy Sierra/Panther Flow thus too?

 

[stangs]

Do you classify Kathy Sierra/Panther Flow thus too?

I would view it as insulting to put her work in the same category as liberty. She’s in a different world entirely to the absurd “tackless horse jumps horse lying down” acts.

Liberty, unfortunately, has never truly referred to liberty - where the horse has complete autonomy - but to a horse trained to such a degree that it can perform the same act without restraints to make it do so. She trains without restraint (unless you include affordances as environmental restraints) so you really can’t compare it.

When I say liberty is like circus work, I don’t mean that Draumur doing crunches is like a circus act, but that there’s not much separating the following 2 photos.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Meh this debate is a boring one for me. I got accused of shutting Faran down, just because for a youngster he isn’t that reactive to stuff on the whole and is a very good boy out a hack for his age.

Mind you this person didn’t know that he’s had 5yrs of work put into him by me, had probably over a 100miles of inhand hacking put into him before I ever rode him and gradually showed him the world through showing and Inhand work. If only they could see him on his days when the leaves fart and he fecks of up the road with his ar$e sucked in or when a slab he’s walked over a million times is going to swallow his hoof

I think a lot of it is people anthropomorphising on the whole, I’m sure perhaps you get the odd shut down horse (yet to meet one personally but hey I’m not exactly a world travelling expert or even a local one ) but not every bombproof horse is like some would have you believe

 

[silv]

I was at an equine expo and some well known NZ Parelli person was doing a display at liberty. The ponies looked absolutely miserable I will never forget it definitely what I would describe as shutdown. All the disciples were oohhing and aahhing I don't know how they could not see what I could.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I was at an equine expo and some well known NZ Parelli person was doing a display at liberty. The ponies looked absolutely miserable I will never forget it definitely what I would describe as shutdown. All the disciples were oohhing and aahhing I don't know how they could not see what I could.

I have written before on the forum my experience of a Parelli demo here in Ireland in 2015 when Mr. J and I stood up and walked out of the appalling spectacle of abuse and witnessing the heartbreaking sight of Parelli's own truly shut down horse.

The oohs and aahs from the large and awestruck audience were depressing in the extreme. We also felt the audience must be either blind deaf or plain stupid not to recognize what they were seeing for what it really was. No hope really is there for much improvement on man's relationship with the horse if this is how little we have really moved forward in recent years.

 

[shanti]

It really a ' how long is a piece of string' question and I don't think it does any good to start categorizing horses as shut down based on a snapshot.
Can a bombproof horse be shut down, yes. Can a non-bombproof horse be shut down, also yes.

For the sake of discussion, I have a crazy, spooky shut down horse (like that when I got him, work in progress) He is completely obedient in every way, to the average person watching me work with him for 10 minutes they would say he is bombproof, alert and happy, however, he is not. He does everything out of fear and anyone who knows anything about body language would notice that he is super tense and really wants to explode, but he is too scared to. I feel upset every time I work with him, it's really sad.

On the other side, my young Standy is about as far from being shut down as you could get. He lets me know the second he is not happy, in any pain or just fed up with whatever we are doing. He is a grumpy git, however he is what the desensitizing crowd would call totally bombproof, you can literally do anything around him, and he just stands there, my husband was giving him a scratch over the fence the other day while holding a running chainsaw, didn't flinch.

 

[conniegirl]

My welshie is bombproof but definitely not shut down. He is over confident, absolutely brazen, thinks he is a dragon and can take on the world. Its part nature and part nurture, he has the welsh bravado that has been carefully nurtured to turn him into a pony who will look after a child (though he may well mug them for treats too)


My last horse, he was IDx, he was so laid back. His confidence had been nurtured so that he felt nothing in the world could hurt him.
He was turned out on quite a few acres, when the farmer went to top the docks Lenny had to be brought in. Not because he was scared but because he used to try and get in the cab of the moving tractor to get the treats he knew were there. Absolutely terrified the farmer!
We went through the stream at somerford for the first time, he didn’t hesitate to go in at all despite the fact the water was well above his knees. He did however insist on trying to catch the splashes that he kicked up as he walked.

 

[ycbm]

I have written before on the forum my experience of a Parelli demo here in Ireland in 2015 when Mr. J and I stood up and walked out of the appalling spectacle of abuse and witnessing the heartbreaking sight of Parelli's own truly shut down horse.

The oohs and aahs from the large and awestruck audience were depressing in the extreme. We also felt the audience must be either blind deaf or plain stupid not to recognize what they were seeing for what it really was. No hope really is there for much improvement on man's relationship with the horse if this is how little we have really moved forward in recent years.

I walked past a Parelli corral at the Horse of the Year show a few years back and the image of those horses haunts me still. A whole bunch of horses too frightened to move if the trainer wasn't with them and too frightened to take their eyes off them if they were.

I have a similar but less extreme problem with liberty work at performances, it demands a slavish attention to the trainer every second the horse is doing it.
.

 

[maya2008]

Not every bombproof horse is shut down. Some are laid back, some desensitised correctly. Equally, children are often allowed more leeway than adults. I have watched mothers and ‘aunties’ allow foals to get away with all sorts, and my children got the same leeway when they were young.

My daughter wriggled out of her buggy once and ran under my TB’s tummy - horse stood dead still, legs locked, desperate not to move in case she stood on the child. Old NF took my son off the lead and used to let him try to catch her, lowering her head for him from her 13.2hh height when he was only 5. Even now, my daughter’s pony gets grumpy with me if I tell my daughter off. She doesn’t seem to get that it is necessary to discipline a child (to be fair she never disciplined her foal, the others had to do it!). She would let my daughter do anything, but assuredly is not the same with anyone else. So ponies being nice to kids is not too dissimilar from them letting the foals rear up and dangle legs over them, or share their dinners.

I have had sparky jumping ponies that you could have detonated fireworks next to - just didn’t care. If I wasn’t bothered, neither were they. Plenty of sass though, definitely not shut down!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

My first Clydesdale mare taught 2x JRT pups who had got into her field that horses can be dangerous by very gently moving them both with a hoof. She didn't kick, neither was hurt but they never went near a horse again. She loved babies of any species. And she certainly was bombproof.

 

[scats]

A lot of these performing/liberty type horses you see at shows such as HOYS and things look pretty shut down to me (or in some cases, visibly annoyed!) and I really don’t find them as awe inspiring as lots of people do.
You know the ones with horses lying down, jumping over each other, rearing on command etc.

There’s just something about it that I don’t like and the horses never look alert and happy. I always find it quite telling that the horses used in these displays look so robotic and fed up, yet it’s supposedly natural/a horse doing something through free will for their handler, yet the horses coming in afterwards to jump huge SJ classes with mouths full of metal, look far happier and keen to do their job!

 

[Glitter's fun]

Aren't we being gullible?
Mention a circus with animals & we all chorus "Nooooo "
But if you call it something else.....

 

[JFTDWS]

I suspect that conflating trained, mannerly horses and shut down horses is a feeble attempt to justify having poorly trained / badly behaved horses. “My horse my try to buck me off every other day, but at least he’s not shut down like other horses!”

All my horses could be considered bombproof in some situations, but reactive in others. Fergus can be trusted with small children in a school setting, and doesn’t flinch when you hit the quintain at speed / throw a horseball over his head / shoot arrows through his ears / wave racquets around… And still he will have an attack of the vapours at a suspicious looking butterfly out hacking. Combines, traffic, narrow bridges, a peloton of Lycra-clad cyclists - no reaction. An unexpected daffodil in spring-time, however…

That’s horses - a bombproof horse has been trained to accept, possibly even enjoy, being around stimuli that might initially seem scary. Take it out into the right new situation and it will react differently - though a trained horse has the learning framework to work through any issues much faster than an untrained horse.

A shut down horse isn’t learning or engaging with its surroundings. It won’t look or feel remotely the same to an educated rider or handler, because it’s not emotionally or mentally present.

I’ve experienced shut down horses - often described as bombproof or super safe hacks - but anyone with an ounce of experience can tell that an unresponsive, switched off horse is not a safe horse.

 

[Birker2020]

Inspired by a comment on a recent thread which basically said a lot of quiet, bombroof horses aren't quiet, just shut down by training.
Is this true?
When does training and schooling turn into "shutting down"?
I have always thought we should train our horses to be quiet and well-mannered under as many different conditions as possible.

I saw a shut down horse when I went to view horses prior to purchasing Lari. It was very disturbing. It was cross tied, didn't even look up when we walked over to it. I felt like I was trespassing when I ran my hands over its body, I stroked its face and talked to it but it was oblivious to my touch.

My partner stroked it on the face same as me and it shot its head up- it was the only reaction we received and quite an alarming one which told us all we needed to know. I thought about it a lot over the passing days. I hope it got a nice home. I could have easily let me heart rule my head and bought it.

It had no muscle anywhere in its body, its hips jutted out as did its hind feet but its demeanour was what I noticed above all else, it was one of total despair and sadness. It was heartbreaking.

The lady said I could take it in the school and it would jump its heart out and I had no doubt it would have, for anyone. Which made it even sadder for me.

I will never forget that horse. Ever.

 

[Caol Ila]

A shut down horse is tuned out and showing signs of stress. A bombproof trained horse looks content doing its job.

Fin was shut down when I got him. He would accept things by mentally blocking them out. You'd know because he'd stand perfectly still with his head up, ears turned back, and a blank look in his eye.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Inspired by a comment on a recent thread which basically said a lot of quiet, bombroof horses aren't quiet, just shut down by training.
Is this true?
When does training and schooling turn into "shutting down"?
I have always thought we should train our horses to be quiet and well-mannered under as many different conditions as possible.

As I understand it, shut down isn't the same as calm, well mannered & trained, because one feels not allowed to react , the other doesn't need to.

A shut down horse tunes out everything around it & lives inside its own head because it's been taught that there'll be a bad response if it reacts to being frightened; a trained or naturally bombproof horse is engaged, mentally present but not frightened.

An example:
G had started as a gypsies' horse & was completely non-reactive to all traffic & noises (except she insisted on a very high, showing off trot whenever a big lorry came past). We were once in a group dressage clinic when it thundered right overhead. There was chaos- people running, others on the floor crying or shouting for ambulances, loose horses charging everywhere; G walked forwards one step & then stood as she'd been trained to at junctions/outside the pub. I was the only one still horsed at the end of it.
BUT definitely not shut down though. Very nosy and opinionated! A country hack took for ever because she wanted to see what was over every hedge - not spookily, just didn't want to miss anything! Such an interesting and interested character & definitely very happy and engaged with the world!

 

[MagicMelon]

I think you can tell just by their face if they're the shut down type. I actually removed my son from riding lessons at a local riding school simply because the ponies looked so utterly deflated and miserable. Not saying all riding school ponies are shut down, I see some as bright as anything, but some just look so done. I do think we should try to keep the spirit of the horse though, like I wouldnt say decent level show horses are shut down, but some do look like robots and not like horses anymore. Whilst I agree horses need to do as their told most of the time, I personally dislike it when someone punishes their horse for being a horse. I saw someone smack their horse for spooking at a bird flying out the other day - if you punish it every time it shows a totally natural reaction then I believe they can shut down very quickly.

 

[Cortez]

Hitting a horse for shying is a whole list of things, no.1 being completely stupid, and none of the rest are good.

Horses shut down because they've utterly given up feeling anything other than defeated and scared ALL OF THE TIME. It's one of the most heartbreaking things to witness because it's what comes after protracted confusion, terror, pain, panic. Horse in my avatar was a severely abused rescue case who had shut down to survive. The day he gave a tiny, tentative nibble at my sleeve was one of the best of my life.

 

[SDMabel]

It's something I really became aware of when working at a riding school .

Ours was not your typical riding school, the ponies were all welsh/newforest and highlands. Most weren't really all that suitable but had been rescued or given another chance at life, they lived out all year round but came in at night during winter. They only did a max of two lessons a day , normally one hack and one time in the school, between these they went back out in the field ( it meant more work for us humans , scrubbing mud and catching again etc ) but made for what i would class as happy ponies. With that , some where as close to bombproof as you could get we had children with physical disabilities who would come and walk round the fields/school on these ones . We would then make sure they would go for a fun hack in the evening with another child.

We did an inter-centre competition one day with pony club - so another branch at riding school came to us and did dressage and showjumping on our ponies then vice versa. A lot of the children from the other school struggled with some of our ponies as they were not push button and most certainly had character that you had to work with.

When we went to the other riding school i understood why, they had horses /ponies that were stood in all day, some tacked up waiting for their next lesson , or ones being used in back to back lessons. It made for an unhappy animal and you could just see it in their face, that dull behind the eye and robotic. A lot of our children didn't enjoy riding them, as they would have gone round the course without a jockey on. I could most definitely say they were shut down , there was no enjoyment in life for those horses/ponies.

 

[Tarragon]

I have just seen a wonderful video of Ben Atkinson working with his horses at Hope Show. They look like a very happy bunch!