Training - aim high or know your limits?

I'm not an "aim for the stars" kind of person. I resent any form of motivational bovine excrement...

However, I believe in training and having a well-schooled animal - I am routinely baffled by people who hack wonky, unresponsive animals and declare them "safe", when they seem to me to be anything but. If it's so unresponsive you can't influence it, it is not safe - it's a liability. If it's a made animal, I expect it to step away from my leg in all directions, to have brakes and to allow me to "put" it in whatever positioning or shape I require. I don't give a damn about what one of my trainers terms the "formalism" unless I'm between the boards.

Back to the original question, I don't actually think either extreme is hugely helpful, in training a horse. You need to have the tools and skillset to "fiddle" with a horse's positioning (not mouth!) and be able to apply them. You need to understand that movements for training don't necessarily relate to those in competition (i.e. you can use an introductory or adapted versions for all kinds of training even if they're nowhere near doing the "text book" version between the boards), and you need to have the skill to apply them at the right time. That also requires the confidence to try them out and risk getting it wrong. It takes time to develop those skills, and I completely understand how novice riders get stuck while trying to develop those skills.

At the other end of the spectrum, I think people need to appreciate that horses (and riders) do have limitations - some transient, some not. There is no point taking your unfit, unschooled draft horse into a small arena to work on half pass, even if learning HP might benefit it at some stage. There is no benefit in pushing your dressage horse (however well bred/ appropriate / schooled / fit) for piaffe if it isn't in that horse's brain, or scope to provide it, for whatever reason. To do either of these things, or many things in between is purely to satisfy the rider's ego, and the ultimate outcome is likely to be a broken horse - physically, or mentally.

Similarly, if the rider is incapable - due to injury / conformation / fitness /etc - of sitting straight/correctly, there is always going to be a limit on the horse's performance. I ramble - a lot - about "tact" in training horses. It's taken me a bloody long time to learn to have some, and I still get it wrong. But I'm coming around to the idea that tact - knowing how far to push a horse, keeping your own ego in check - is one of the most important skills you can have on a horse. I don't think it's something we focus on enough, and I think the "sky's the limit" mentality which permeates sports psychology is actively detrimental to that.

As in all things, find the via media. And then stick a big signpost up for the rest of us...
 
milliepops said:
So, promoted by the various threads in TR about there being no interesting discussion, here's something that I've been pondering about recently and would be interested to hear the thoughts of other HHOers. I'm not sure if I'll explain it very clearly but I'll have a go!

I've been helping a few people with their horses lately, all hobby riders with varying levels of experience on green but uncomplicated horses. Some have competitive ambitions, others just want to improve their horses. Most common issues are essentially down to lack of straightness, suppleness, inconsistent contact and horse not sharp to the leg. Nothing earth shattering, stuff that all of us struggle with at some degree and return to throughout a horse's career.

It is second nature to me when sitting on a horse to address these things by riding a horse to the contact, introducing simple schooling exercises like shoulder fore or shallow leg yield to help show the horse a different way of going, improve its balance etc and generally make the basic way of going better.

I get the impression that there are others who would see this as pointless if the rider is (a) not at the stage of THEIR training to be able to ride a competition standard leg yield, for example, or (b) if the rider is not interested in riding at a "higher level".

My personal feeling is that I have enjoyed being gently stretched by my trainer and encouraged not to put limits on my aspirations. I've learned to see schooling exercises as tools to play with to develop the horse (at all levels of training) rather than badges to be "earnt". But do others prefer to stick to basic W/T/C and work to perfect the things they are familiar with?

Hope that makes sense, interested in opinions?
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This is a really interesting question! I would class myself as a true amatur who only has one horse and works full time in quite a demanding job. I do compete now, but there was a time a few years ago when I didn't have the means to, but even then I was very much in the "push yourself to improve" camp. Personally I couldn't justify the cost of keeping a horse if I only hacked it out a couple of times a week. Don't get me wrong, I do hack and we both love it, but there is nothing more satisfying than a good schooling session when the penny drops on something you have been working on/the horse starts to grasp something new/that feeling of riding by telepathy because the aids are so subtle, or being inspired by a good trainer. Personally I feel that stretching the horse and rider both mentally and physically is a good thing. Even if the rider only wants to improve the basic walk, trot and canter, in my mind this isn't possible unless you introduce some more "advanced" movements such as leg yield, shoulder in, demi piris, learning how to move the front and back independently of each other etc to build strength and suppleness and to make the those basic movements easier for the horse and more harmonious. I think the same is true for riders. You've got to start somewhere, and even if you can't ride a competition standard leg yield, learning how to do it will increase the riders awareness of how their body influences the horse. There is so much more to riding than kicking with your legs and steering/stopping with your hands, but sometimes I think that people are unaware of how their bodyweight, straightness, position and angle of their torso in relation to their lower body, knees, thighs, seatbones etc. etc. can influence the horse's way of going for better or worse. One of my trainers seems to be able to get me to improve my horses way of going just by bending the little finger on my left hand a little more!! A little flippant maybe, but she does make me realise how subtle changes in the way I use my muscles can influence my horse for the better. That in turn drives me on to improve.

I spectated at some UA dressage recently and did wonder whether the money that had been spent on dressage saddles and other smart equipment might have been better spent on some training, but maybe that's just fashion, plus a bit of a thread derail and a completely different topic!
 
milliepops said:
do you have access to a GOOD schoolmaster in your area, Bernster? This is probably the best way to learn a correct feeling. I've popped a friend onto Millie a couple of times recently to help her get away from the kick/pull/twiddle cycle and now she's got a fab connection with her horse developing. & Millie's just a very ordinary amateur horse, still helped her to see where she needed to go.
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Bernsters mare lives with me. I reckon she ought to have a sit on Alf!
 
j1ffy said:
I think there are two parts to the question - what is important to know as part of basic training, and how high should you aim when competing. I don't view learning basic lateral work (or even less basic lateral work!) as 'aiming high'. To me, 'aiming high' relates more to competitive goals.
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yes, I couldn't quite think of a title for the thread that would fit in the box but I agree it's not exactly lofty to start training a bit of sideways or anything else more "advanced", hopefully the rest of the ramble got the gist across :o

daffy44 said:
Good topic! .
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lol, thanks, it was a slow starter but after all the discussion yesterday about the C&T forum being dead I thought I'd go for it :D

JFTD said:
.. .

However, I believe in training and having a well-schooled animal - I am routinely baffled by people who hack wonky, unresponsive animals and declare them "safe", when they seem to me to be anything but. If it's so unresponsive you can't influence it, it is not safe - it's a liability. If it's a made animal, I expect it to step away from my leg in all directions, to have brakes and to allow me to "put" it in whatever positioning or shape I require. I don't give a damn about what one of my trainers terms the "formalism" unless I'm between the boards.
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this is an interesting point and I agree, I feel quite out of control on a horse that only understands agricultural rein aids for direction etc. I schooled a horse for a friend a while back and could not believe she'd just been round a BE80 on it when i could barely steer round a 20m circle :eek:

Street_Skill said:
Even if the rider only wants to improve the basic walk, trot and canter, in my mind this isn't possible unless you introduce some more "advanced" movements such as leg yield, shoulder in, demi piris, learning how to move the front and back independently of each other etc to build strength and suppleness and to make the those basic movements easier for the horse and more harmonious. I think the same is true for riders. You've got to start somewhere, and even if you can't ride a competition standard leg yield, learning how to do it will increase the riders awareness of how their body influences the horse.
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It's interesting that we're all mainly on the same wavelength, yet there seems to be a lot of instruction provided to people which is quite different...

Thanks all for your thoughts so far :) Now, who's going to think up the next C&T thread....?:p
 
milliepops said:
I schooled a horse for a friend a while back and could not believe she'd just been round a BE80 on it when i could barely steer round a 20m circle :eek:



It's interesting that we're all mainly on the same wavelength, yet there seems to be a lot of instruction provided to people which is quite different...

Thanks all for your thoughts so far :) Now, who's going to think up the next C&T thread....?:p
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Yeah, there's hope for me yet then in doing my be80 on a wibbly wobbly horse (and rider).

Auslander said:
Bernsters mare lives with me. I reckon she ought to have a sit on Alf!
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I sense much embarrassment and potentially falling off from a great height...is this the time to mention that I once tried out a very green but fab little hunting cob, and I fell off when I asked it to canter??
 
milliepops said:
It's interesting that we're all mainly on the same wavelength, yet there seems to be a lot of instruction provided to people which is quite different...
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For a large chunk of the equine world I think the saying- "those that can, do, those that can't teach" applies. This is perpetuated when those that were taught now become the teachers. From what I've seen of the horse world this this probably applies to a good fifty percent of the 'instructors' out there.
The problem is, until you have experienced a good instructor you don't know any difference.
I had been riding 26 years before my eyes were opened and that was pure chance.
 
Bernster said:
I sense much embarrassment and potentially falling off from a great height...is this the time to mention that I once tried out a very green but fab little hunting cob, and I fell off when I asked it to canter??
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You won't fall off him - he's angelic in the school. He might jiggle you a bit, if he decides it's a pis-sage day. Most days are...
 
Interesting question. Personally I don't have huge competition aspirations, nor am I very competitive. However I believe in using a horse to its full potential, so reluctantly trudge out to compete every now and then :o
I am no dressage rider, but I would like to think that anyone who gets on my horse can have an enjoyable, easy and correct ride. Thus I try and bring my horses on to fulfill that requirement of mine. I also think that a horse that has been out and competed is more likely to sell, if circumstances change and they need to be sold on relatively quickly.

I think lateral work is quite important in general, even if the horse isn't necessarily to be competed. A nice supple horse is more enjoyable than one as stiff as a board! However, I also acknowledge that there are riders who just want to hack out and enjoy a wander on their horses. And if their aim is to just have a nice walk around a few times a week, so be it :)

ETA: With the hours I work, I am not able to go out and compete regularly enough to improve quickly. So whilst I do go out now and then, improving during outings plods along at a snails pace (And I am fine with that :) )
 
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Northern said:
I think lateral work is quite important in general, even if the horse isn't necessarily to be competed. A nice supple horse is more enjoyable than one as stiff as a board!
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Yes, I feel that my mentioning sideways in my OP I might have slightly got the thread off on the wrong footing... I use these exercises personally to improve the general balance of the horse, not for the sake of teaching it exercises. For me (as for most people I expect!) riding an unbalanced horse isn't a lot of fun. If you can teach them to be in balance, that's nicer for everyone, whether you are hacking out, going for a canter in the field, jumping or doing schoolwork.

I guess that's the bit I've been surprised by, in my own little sphere, that people aren't taught how to use these exercises to make their horses generally nicer to ride ;) it's like it's held in reserve for People Who Want To Compete. Though obviously that is not the case across the board, happily.
Dunno.
 
There is an interesting breed of rider who has spent a lot of time hacking / riding functionally rather than training horses who do seem to get a bee in their bonnet about the very idea of lateral work. I've a few friends who are trying to leave that category and I've thrown on Fergus. Fergus is, whilst far from perfect, a very easy pony to go sideways on - he loves it, and offers it very easily. In fact, SWC (amongst others!) spent a lot of time in travers while asking for canter the first time she rode him, purely because her aids weren't quite clear to him. In walk, and to an extent, trot, I can work him in hand (with a passenger) in all lateral work to show a rider what it feels like and how to start to ask for it.

The number of riders who get flustered and "confused" by this - even with simple instructions like "slide your left/oustide leg back" is incredible. If you don't tell them you want them to ride SI / travers / whatever and just say "put *that* leg *there*", they do it without thinking and get the movement. It's like their brain flags it up as "hard" and therefore they lose the ability to even attempt it.
 
Well I'm glad we've sorted bernster out :).

I think I will probably always want to keep improving me/the horse, if not I wouldn't have been teaching a 22/23yo to half pass ;) (while I had something that would tolerate me).
BUT I will always be realistic about time scales/won't really be working to any and will have to keep enjoying it.
 
JFTD said:
There is an interesting breed of rider who has spent a lot of time hacking / riding functionally rather than training horses who do seem to get a bee in their bonnet about the very idea of lateral work. I've a few friends who are trying to leave that category and I've thrown on Fergus. Fergus is, whilst far from perfect, a very easy pony to go sideways on - he loves it, and offers it very easily. In fact, SWC (amongst others!) spent a lot of time in travers while asking for canter the first time she rode him, purely because her aids weren't quite clear to him. In walk, and to an extent, trot, I can work him in hand (with a passenger) in all lateral work to show a rider what it feels like and how to start to ask for it.

The number of riders who get flustered and "confused" by this - even with simple instructions like "slide your left/oustide leg back" is incredible. If you don't tell them you want them to ride SI / travers / whatever and just say "put *that* leg *there*", they do it without thinking and get the movement. It's like their brain flags it up as "hard" and therefore they lose the ability to even attempt it.
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Hah! I was once lucky enough to ride a Grand Prix dressage pony. We spent a good five minutes doing tempi changes before I had figured out his buttons! Did make me realise just how sensitive they are to aids, and also that I need to do a bit more work with my own before laterals and other movements become that easy ;)

Most of the people I've spoken to seem to think the more advanced movements (ie. Other than walk/trot/canter/circle) belong to "those posh dressage riders". My attempts to dissuade that train of thought failed miserably :P
 
Aim high 100%! Although I am the top end of this spectrum and am almost destructively self critical in my attempt to be perfect (and I am far from it!)
 
milliepops said:
yes, I couldn't quite think of a title for the thread that would fit in the box but I agree it's not exactly lofty to start training a bit of sideways or anything else more "advanced", hopefully the rest of the ramble got the gist across :o

It's interesting that we're all mainly on the same wavelength, yet there seems to be a lot of instruction provided to people which is quite different...
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I totally got your point! Hopefully you got mine too, I was a tad rambling...

As for 'wavelength', I suspect it would have been a very different response in the scary Tack Room ;)

JFTD said:
The number of riders who get flustered and "confused" by this - even with simple instructions like "slide your left/oustide leg back" is incredible. If you don't tell them you want them to ride SI / travers / whatever and just say "put *that* leg *there*", they do it without thinking and get the movement. It's like their brain flags it up as "hard" and therefore they lose the ability to even attempt it.
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I absolutely agree with this! The first time I did piaffe and Spanish walk was on an incredible stallion in Spain. My trainer didn't tell me what we were going to do and just gave me the aids "collect the walk and raise you hands"...horse did Spanish Walk. "Collect the walk, keep your contact, put both legs back" - piaffe. "Slightly release the contact" = passage from the piaffe. If he'd said "we're going to do some pi-pa transitions" I'd have been b&@gered ;) Oh and now I know more I probably couldn't do it again..!!
 
I think I aim high,but perhaps in a different way to many people. I am not competitive at all, but I do want to have a beautifully schooled responsive horse, just because they are a pleasure to ride. We may not be classical in all our steps but I want my horse to go forwards backwards and sideways in whatever direction I ask, with a light touch. I want to develop his strength, power and flexibility just because I thin it must feel better for him, I know how much better I feel when I am strong and flexible. But then, and this may be the wierd bit, I want to develop extra things that i think prove the rest of my training. I want to prove he can work as well bitless as other people do bitted, and then I want to take the bridle away to develop our skills without the reins. Today we worked on shortening and lengthening the stride, cantering bending poles, rein back, etc without a bridle. We can jump a course of small fences with no bridle. I would like to work on his lateral work without a bridle, its a challenge and we both quite like a puzzle and working out what the other one of us is doing. So i think I am ambitious, but perhaps in a slightly quirky way. maybe because i am not competitive i can spend more of my limited riding time 'messing around' with these other things, I wonder if I was aiming at high level dressage i would find i don't have enough time in the week to train those movements as well as my 'silly' stuff.
 
JFTD said:
The number of riders who get flustered and "confused" by this - even with simple instructions like "slide your left/oustide leg back" is incredible. If you don't tell them you want them to ride SI / travers / whatever and just say "put *that* leg *there*", they do it without thinking and get the movement. It's like their brain flags it up as "hard" and therefore they lose the ability to even attempt it.
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That is very true! I do quite a lot of "teaching by numbers" in the early stages of training the more advanced movements - talking the rider through the aids, without telling them what we're aiming for. Their faces when they realise they're doing travers/half pass/pirouette is always a joy to behold. Have to be a bit careful teaching changes that way, as there is a possibility of a VTOL (vertical take off and landing).
I get far more fluster when I introduce "nipple eyes" though.
 
KatPT, I love your post, and your not alone, my mare competes at Grand Prix, but I also ride her bareback, in a headcollar etc, I just wanted to see if I could and how it would work, and its great fun!

I certainly think a lot of riders thnk lateral work etc is only for "posh dressage people" which is such a shame, they are limiting themselves unnecessarily before they even start, and its no wonder they can find schooling boring, when they dont use anything to help them improve the education of the horse.

I absolutely dont think any of this should be just for the sake of competition, its more about developing the horse to be the best athlete it can be through careful, systematic training. The first horse I trained to GP was a failed eventer that I didnt compete, because she hated it, but I learnt more than I imagined possible and loved every second of training this horse and unlocking her abilities.
 
Haha Auslander! I think you need to explain that one ... :D

To be fair, my instructor knows me well enough to know that complicated biomechanical type talk will lose me entirely.To be fair, phrases like open your hips loses me. How does one open a part of their body they didn't realise was closed ...?!

However, she knows full well that phrase like pretend your boobs are headlights lighting your way, will get me to align my body. Or smile with your bum cheeks when preparing for an upward transition. Or think about how you'd move your hips when your on top in canter is much more relatable ... not sure if that says more about them or me, quite frankly :D
 
daffy44 said:
KatPT, I love your post, and your not alone, my mare competes at Grand Prix, but I also ride her bareback, in a headcollar etc, I just wanted to see if I could and how it would work, and its great fun!

I certainly think a lot of riders thnk lateral work etc is only for "posh dressage people" which is such a shame, they are limiting themselves unnecessarily before they even start, and its no wonder they can find schooling boring, when they dont use anything to help them improve the education of the horse.

I absolutely dont think any of this should be just for the sake of competition, its more about developing the horse to be the best athlete it can be through careful, systematic training. The first horse I trained to GP was a failed eventer that I didnt compete, because she hated it, but I learnt more than I imagined possible and loved every second of training this horse and unlocking her abilities.
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Yes, I loved Kat's post too - I can relate to a lot of that. I think in general that there's a lot of horsey folk about who have very low expectations of their horses in all sorts of ways, not just schooling. I posted a while back on the use of earplugs, and while I'm not disparaging people who use ear plugs in particular circumstances for particular reasons, if you get to the point where you can't get on it without depriving it of one of its main senses you surely have to take a look at how your approaching the whole thing....?

And I agree with JFTD, I don't think the aim for the stars thing is always the most helpful, because it's a bit all or nothing, and I do think that as a result the standard of education of the avaerage hacking and all rounder type horse has gone down. I think that there should be more encouragement for great training of the average pleasure horse....someone shouldn't feel just because they aren't out competing that they can't take great pride in having a really well trained animal.

Sorry, got a bit ranty there.... :o
 
DabDab said:
Yes, I loved Kat's post too - I can relate to a lot of that. I think in general that there's a lot of horsey folk about who have very low expectations of their horses in all sorts of ways, not just schooling. I posted a while back on the use of earplugs, and while I'm not disparaging people who use ear plugs in particular circumstances for particular reasons, if you get to the point where you can't get on it without depriving it of one of its main senses you surely have to take a look at how your approaching the whole thing....?

And I agree with JFTD, I don't think the aim for the stars thing is always the most helpful, because it's a bit all or nothing, and I do think that as a result the standard of education of the avaerage hacking and all rounder type horse has gone down. I think that there should be more encouragement for great training of the average pleasure horse....someone shouldn't feel just because they aren't out competing that they can't take great pride in having a really well trained animal.

Sorry, got a bit ranty there.... :o
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AGREE!!! Rant away....
 
apercrumbie said:
Very, very true. I've had some good instructors over the years but in reality, have I ever had a great instructor who a) believed in me and b) inspired me, perhaps not. Maybe I would have kept my interest in competing? And while I am by no means a terrible rider, I would probably be a better rider today had I more ambition.
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Very much agree. It took me years to find someone (actually two people) who helped put those pieces of the puzzle together. It's also ironic that once I started to understand the training, my competitive side started to diminish.
 
Really interesting thread and some great tips from very knowledgeable people, I am a bit of a habitual lurker on the C&T page and often take away great tips to try at home from people like Auslander and MP. so thank you :-)

I guess I am an aim high- reach for the stars (before it gets to late and i am to old :-) ) sort of rider.
I didn't get any proper instruction as a child, but learned to stick on mostly by falling off ponies no one else wanted and reading instruction books, but as i got into my 20's (that was quite a few years ago now!) I realised there is a huge difference between a well schooled horse and a pull and kick along who has no idea about the more refined aids. and decided that is what i wanted to achieve ( or at least try!)
I constantly desperately want to learn more and more but often struggle through lack of both decent regular instruction and self belief that we can do it.

we are getting there and I have to often remind myself how far we have come rather than where we have not got to.

I guess I am competitive as I still want to get out and compete, but really just love learning how to do things the right way and teaching my horse to go correctly, as when it does all come together even for a few brief moments, there is no other feeling so great !
 
Really interesting discussion. I am pretty rubbish, so aiming for the stars would be pretty dispiriting, as they are a very long way away, but I am always aiming for the next bit. I need to break things down into really small achievable steps in order to not get overwhelmed with how hopeless I am. One of the things I most want from a trainer is a really clear sense of where we are and what we're working on and what the next few steps will be. They need to be incredibly patient though, as less physically inept people won't take nearly as long as me to move from one to the next, and probably won't take one step back for every two they take forward.

I am happy with slow progress, as long as there's progress!
 
apercrumbie said:
Very, very true. I've had some good instructors over the years but in reality, have I ever had a great instructor who a) believed in me and b) inspired me, perhaps not.
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It's a great feeling when you find someone who does both.

Great thread op! I can't answer from a competitive pov but I've spent the last six months pretty much relearning to ride after no lessons for twelve years, with someone who has your mindset! By relearning, I mean going right back to basics too. My mindset has certainly changed about what I expect/do from the moment I'm on a horse. I'm also only riding at a riding school which throws up even more questions than some people face when only riding one.

The things you mention are standard in my flatwork lessons to both improve the horse and my own understanding/influence of independent aids. Sometimes, as jftd mentioned re the negative side of it, I feel frustrated at the end of the lesson when I haven't improved a horse as much as I can/could, or not achieved something the way I had in a previous lesson. One of the biggest lessons any rider has to learn is the limitations of the horse underneath you, and that's something I struggle with as I put all the pressure on myself - I blame my own riding and quite badly so, despite my rational side knowing the horse isn't established enough, or came out stiff/sore/not in the mood, or has physical limitations, I still blame myself. So while striving for the stars is great in theory whenever you get on a horse, sometimes it can do more harm than good if you have a rider who over-analyses, and for some horses, they're never going to be as established as we can hope for, or attempting lateral work puts them into a foul mood or whatever.

On a personal level working a horse correctly, riding medium trot for the first time, or nailing shoulder in or travers on horses I'm sure people on here would dismiss outright as they're 'just riding school horses' is a great feeling, and that gives me the drive to ride more, improve more and achieve more, all helped by a super tough but fun instructor.
 
My approach has always been to aim high - no matter how unrealistic, it is always good to have dreams! However, be realistic about where you are starting from; then plan your journey in bite size chunks with small goals on the way.
 
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