Training session 8

Fellewell said:
No self-respecting trainer would ride an unsound horse, much less on camera.
The horse is weak behind and this is being addressed by the OP and his vets.
I suspect Armas was sold as a first/leisure horse and for this he was fit for purpose, if he'd shown any promise as a vaquera horse he perhaps would not have been sold to the OP.
I don't get this obsession with Spanish trainers that's like saying an ID should only be trained by an Irishman or a Highland by someone from Auchtermuchty!
I will however concede that Welsh ponies should only be ridden by the Welsh;)
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This may be the best post ever in the History of HHO! :D :D :D
 
Fellewell said:
No self-respecting trainer would ride an unsound horse, much less on camera.
The horse is weak behind and this is being addressed by the OP and his vets.
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SI unsoundness is notoriously hard to diagnose and may only be seen intermittently. It took Sue Dyson a week to diagnose my horse at Newmarket and he has a chronic condition, so I think any trainer overlooking an issue could be forgiven and not expected to spot it. With a horse that is clearly not 'easy' even harder to notice hind unsoundness.
 
YasandCrystal said:
SI unsoundness is notoriously hard to diagnose and may only be seen intermittently. It took Sue Dyson a week to diagnose my horse at Newmarket and he has a chronic condition, so I think any trainer overlooking an issue could be forgiven and not expected to spot it. With a horse that is clearly not 'easy' even harder to notice hind unsoundness.
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Si was diagnosed by endoscope. Maximum of two injections per year is correct. The best post in H&H history IMHO was the Dolly thread I loved that.
 
Fellewell said:
No self-respecting trainer would ride an unsound horse, much less on camera.
The horse is weak behind and this is being addressed by the OP and his vets.
I suspect Armas was sold as a first/leisure horse and for this he was fit for purpose, if he'd shown any promise as a vaquera horse he perhaps would not have been sold to the OP.
I don't get this obsession with Spanish trainers that's like saying an ID should only be trained by an Irishman or a Highland by someone from Auchtermuchty!
I will however concede that Welsh ponies should only be ridden by the Welsh;)
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Yes but, if you have a traditional cob you should definitely get a Gypsy to train it though right...? :p
 
My error ultrasound not endoscopy The vet did some flexion tests hind movements then watched him walk trot and canter.
The vet took X-rays of the spine which showed no issues. However the ultrasound of the pelvis showed a problem in the Sacroiliac (SI) Joint two slight gaps. No sign of pain when it was palmated internally. A common problem apparently.
The diagnosis followed with two Injections left & right side of the back.
 
It is a management issue and may need further injections in time. But the vet has said that is not the case at the moment.
 
After the injections we did lots of this kind of work including lunging with a peso type arrangement.

[video=youtube;jLRcgcp4148]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRcgcp4148[/video]
 
Armas said:
Si was diagnosed by endoscope. Maximum of two injections per year is correct. The best post in H&H history IMHO was the Dolly thread I loved that.
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Is that USS with an endorectal probe? I believe that's used to diagnose SI ligament damage and is indeed endoscopy as you said:)
 
YasandCrystal said:
SI unsoundness is notoriously hard to diagnose and may only be seen intermittently. It took Sue Dyson a week to diagnose my horse at Newmarket and he has a chronic condition, so I think any trainer overlooking an issue could be forgiven and not expected to spot it. With a horse that is clearly not 'easy' even harder to notice hind unsoundness.
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That's all well and good but I don't think this trainer came from the local trekking centre, do you?
 
Haven't seen all your videos but watched all of this - I like the trainer, the only slight issue for me would be she possibly pushed him a little too hard and for too longer period when doing some of the collection work as to me at times when he had a tantrum it maybe could have been prevented by catching that period of good and moving forward quickly again (if that makes sense) but I am aware that is definitely easier said then done.

Look forward to watching more updates.
 
I have watched the whole vid, have only read the first five pages, but I am wondering why the rider is "holding" him back with her hands constantly? To get a horse engaged and working towards the vertical, I would holds my hands higher that usual and more forward, this is a far more friendly in the horses mouth and with make the horse reach for the bit more and stretch his neck, instead of going rounder and rounder and more tense.

I will now read the rest of the thread, just needed to get this out of my system.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Yes now there is a brilliant trainer indeed. I wish I had the talent he has in his in his little finger. He does amazing inhand work and I believe that should be the foundation of all ridden work.
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I would offer to clean out his stables for a year YasandCrystal - with a teaspoon and a sieve, just for a little of his knowledge!

I'm not trying to hijack your thread Armas, but could someone (including you :))explain to me the difference between how an Iberian horse works and any other (apart from obvious build issues and not skeletal issues like an arab). Do they naturally move differently or are they trained differently as youngsters? Thanks.
 
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doriangrey said:
I would offer to clean out his stables for a year YasandCrystal - with a teaspoon and a sieve, just for a little of his knowledge!

I'm not trying to hijack your thread Armas, but could someone (including you :))explain to me the difference between how an Iberian horse works and any other (apart from obvious build issues and not skeletal issues like an arab). Do they naturally move differently or are they trained differently as youngsters? Thanks.
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Spanish horses are funny beasts; they don't react, move or respond quite like any other that I have ever trained (which, at this stage of my long and eventful life is a lot of different horses over nearly 50 years). It's really hard to explain, but anyone who has ever had an Iberian horse for any length of time will, I am sure, know what I am talking about. They are reactive, almost too eager to please, take offence when ridden badly/roughly, need a firm hand yet require gentleness and extreme tact. They ARE the horse of Kings; they ARE the ultimate noble creature; they WILL lay their life down for you IF they respect you. They are the original Haute Ecole horse, yet are not ideal for modern dressage; they can offer piaffe, passage, levade and capriole as natural movements and collect with ease, but struggle with extreme exaggeration in the gaits and are not "back movers" like the modern sport horse breeds. The traditional equitation of Spain and Portugal is the closest to "classical" (BIG debate over what that actually means) riding, which is NOT dressage as we know it today. But if you want to see EVERY horse going in beautiful, quiet, natural collection, performing piaffe & passage as a normal part of everyday riding, calmly, happily then go to any feria in Spain or Portugal. These are the places where classical riding is just........riding.
 
Cortez said:
Spanish horses are funny beasts; they don't react, move or respond quite like any other that I have ever trained (which, at this stage of my long and eventful life is a lot of different horses over nearly 50 years). It's really hard to explain, but anyone who has ever had an Iberian horse for any length of time will, I am sure, know what I am talking about. They are reactive, almost too eager to please, take offence when ridden badly/roughly, need a firm hand yet require gentleness and extreme tact. They ARE the horse of Kings; they ARE the ultimate noble creature; they WILL lay their life down for you IF they respect you. They are the original Haute Ecole horse, yet are not ideal for modern dressage; they can offer piaffe, passage, levade and capriole as natural movements and collect with ease, but struggle with extreme exaggeration in the gaits and are not "back movers" like the modern sport horse breeds. The traditional equitation of Spain and Portugal is the closest to "classical" (BIG debate over what that actually means) riding, which is NOT dressage as we know it today. But if you want to see EVERY horse going in beautiful, quiet, natural collection, performing piaffe & passage as a normal part of everyday riding, calmly, happily then go to any feria in Spain or Portugal. These are the places where classical riding is just........riding.
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Thanks so much Cortez, you are like Terri - so much experience and knowledge. Here's the question. Is it type? Or is it training? I'm questioning the long and low theory like mad for any breed at the moment and back movement - when the equine spine moves so little ... sounds like a disaster for SI and stifle alike for any horse, especially when the pelvis rotates to compensate. Unfortunately this would question all modern dressage and ... well.
 
Type or training: it's both, and that's the ellipse that gets us back on track for this thread. Spanish trainers train Spanish horses in the way that suits them both best (chicken and egg?), which is why I've tended to recommend trainers that understand the Spanish/Iberian horse. So many people get in to trouble when they buy their "dream horse" PRE for hacking/hunting/dressage/whatever and then get themselves and the poor horses into a pickle when it all goes horribly wrong (YES I know it doesn't always go wrong). Is a horse bred for centuries to go to war, carry a King and face down an angry bull really going to be the first choice for a nervous novice? Possibly not...............
 
As much as Iberians have certain particular characteristics, and a few of those characteristics make them a completely counter intuitive ride for the majority of riders, I don't think that is necessarily more pronounced than in other breeds. You only have to look through this forum to find numerous threads where people are asking why an exracer is behaving in a way that is completely counter intuitive and not responding to them in the way that they expect. Then there are arabs, that have hundreds of years of breeding to enable them to gallop for miles a day across the desert, which is the only breed that, try as I might, I can't get anywhere near the best out of. Modern Warmbloods are bred for high level competition and I have seen them ridden both brilliantly and disastrously by people who had never ridden them before.

A good rider rides the horse that is underneath them, not the horse that they think is underneath them, and that means being able to pick up pretty quickly what the horse responds to and working with their natural way of going, rather than trying to make them 'correct'.
 
A good rider rides the horse that is underneath them, not the horse that they think is underneath them, and that means being able to pick up pretty quickly what the horse responds to and working with their natural way of going, rather than trying to make them 'correct'.[/QUOTE]

Agree with this bit ^ And Arabs are a walk in the park compared to a really fired up, bullfighting bred PRE.
 
Cortez said:
Agree with this bit ^ And Arabs are a walk in the park compared to a really fired up, bullfighting bred PRE.
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Yes I quite agree - I just don't like arabs

*Disclaimer: no disrespect meant to the breed in general, I just prefer it when someone else is riding*
 
DabDab said:
As much as Iberians have certain particular characteristics, and a few of those characteristics make them a completely counter intuitive ride for the majority of riders, I don't think that is necessarily more pronounced than in other breeds. You only have to look through this forum to find numerous threads where people are asking why an exracer is behaving in a way that is completely counter intuitive and not responding to them in the way that they expect. Then there are arabs, that have hundreds of years of breeding to enable them to gallop for miles a day across the desert, which is the only breed that, try as I might, I can't get anywhere near the best out of. Modern Warmbloods are bred for high level competition and I have seen them ridden both brilliantly and disastrously by people who had never ridden them before.

A good rider rides the horse that is underneath them, not the horse that they think is underneath them, and that means being able to pick up pretty quickly what the horse responds to and working with their natural way of going, rather than trying to make them 'correct'.
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That also makes perfect sense .. it really is about understanding the horse and not about making it work for us but about us understanding how it works.
 
Agree with everything Cortez has said about Iberian horses.

I don't know why, but more with the Iberians I have worked with than any other type, when I have worked with them it has been like working with another person. I have found them, without exception to just have a deeper understanding of what I as a rider have wanted from them provided I have asked them in the right way, i have found that way to be one of sensitivity and demand in equal measure. Almost like if I ask pretty please will you do this for me, they lose all respect...but if I say, " do this and do it NOW" they'll shut down or chuck you off, lol.

This is a very simplified way to explain my own experience of them over the last 20 of 30 years riding a great variety of horses.

They are magnificent horses....not just to look at....in fact more so in their very soul.

I love them and would have one tomorrow again of I could. Alas, I can't just yet.
 
doriangrey said:
That also makes perfect sense .. it really is about understanding the horse and not about making it work for us but about us understanding how it works.
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The best riders don't ask or demand, they listen and react accordingly. That should happen no matter the horse you are on.

That said, different types do have different things that can make them click.
 
_GG_ said:
The best riders don't ask or demand, they listen and react accordingly. That should happen no matter the horse you are on.

That said, different types do have different things that can make them click.
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Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. I meant - how the horse works physiologically.
 
I only watched about 5 mins of that but already am bored to death for the poor horse. How terribly dull doing the same thing (which is WHAT?!) over and over again. No idea what the rider is trying to achieve here. Poor horse, he looks like a sweetie too. Iberians are so clever, I bet he's lost the will to live already... My part Luso would have been thoroughly unimpressed doing this for 30 mins!
 
Cortez said:
Spanish horses are funny beasts; they don't react, move or respond quite like any other that I have ever trained (which, at this stage of my long and eventful life is a lot of different horses over nearly 50 years). It's really hard to explain, but anyone who has ever had an Iberian horse for any length of time will, I am sure, know what I am talking about. They are reactive, almost too eager to please, take offence when ridden badly/roughly, need a firm hand yet require gentleness and extreme tact. They ARE the horse of Kings; they ARE the ultimate noble creature; they WILL lay their life down for you IF they respect you.
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Totally agree with you Cortez. I've only got a half Luso but oh wow is he different. The most intelligent, quick witted horse I've ever had. He could literally read my mind, I only had to think a change of pace or a turn (we evented and showjumped) and he'd do it in a split second. He would over analyse things though, if I asked him to halt and I stayed still for too long, his brain would go crazy thinking "oh she must want me to do a turn on the forehand, no she doesn't want that, maybe she wants me to reverse" etc. not out of naughtiness at all, purely because he was SO eager to please! Having now got a warmblood (and ridden a few), as much as I love him, I find them almost thick in comparison. My Luso was the easiest in the world to ride because he was so reactive but he did chuck me off plenty in our first few months together and I could never have put a novice on him, you really had to know how to get him to click. One you get that relationship though, there's no other trust like it.
 
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MagicMelon said:
Totally agree with you Cortez. I've only got a half Luso but oh wow is he different. The most intelligent, quick witted horse I've ever had. He could literally read my mind, I only had to think a change of pace or a turn (we evented and showjumped) and he'd do it in a split second. He would over analyse things though, if I asked him to halt and I stayed still for too long, his brain would go crazy thinking "oh she must want me to do a turn on the forehand, no she doesn't want that, maybe she wants me to reverse" etc. not out of naughtiness at all, purely because he was SO eager to please! Having now got a warmblood (and ridden a few), as much as I love him, I find them almost thick in comparison. My Luso was the easiest in the world to ride because he was so reactive but he did chuck me off plenty in our first few months together and I could never have put a novice on him, you really had to know how to get him to click. One you get that relationship though, there's no other trust like it.
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I love warmbloods but do tend to call them dumb bloods and that is in comparison to the different Iberian horses I used to ride and train.

Totally different mental attitude to work. Even really hot warmbloods that are super sensitive never seem to have the same forward thinking borderline desperation to please.
 
Hi Armas,
I watched all your videos to date with interest because having spent most of 2012 in Portugal I have seen Iberian horses being trained and re-trained in various ways and to various effects. I also had a pleasure to watch a series of training sessions over 6 months with Francisco Cancella de Abreu (one of the most sought after Working Equitation trainer, FEI dressage judge, combining German Scales of Training with Portuguese Classical Equitation); one of the horses I followed training of was an ex-bullfighting Lusitano with similar BTV contact issue and a lot of tension, another being very similarly built/working to Armas (weak loins, bigger paces, evasive/unlevel right hind, no left poll flexion, sharp & sensitive). The ex-bullfighting stallion was too worked on a fairly short contact with a non-avoidance principle but he was a short coupled, strong little horse and was never asked to work on collection until contact and tension issues were vastly improved.
The Armas-look-a-like was worked a lot on a longer rein..it turned out he had back muscle issue which made working under with his right hind leg difficult. This resolved fairly quickly (a week if I remember well) with gentle work and rest. However, he is a weak loin horse so was worked accordingly. He was worked a lot with his crest level with his wither but as he was prone to go btv on contact this had to be done on a longer rein. It took couple of months but he worked without sucking back afterwards.

I share this is a comparison not to say Armas should be worked that way. However, based on my knowledge and experience to date I am afraid I don't understand the methodology of your trainer's way of working Armas at all. I watched the latest video to the end as was hoping to see some sense in the process but didn't. The horse works crooked yet is required to work on elements where straightness is needed to preserve soundness. Trainer is consistently adding power into tension which I personally don't believe in.

I am not experienced in re-training contact issues so I stand to be corrected but I don't like what I have seen here. I love Iberian horses, their brain, work ethics and incredible sensitivity and your horse has it all. It's painful to watch him in current training.

If this was my horse I would call Francisco (his number and email are easily google-able) to ask for my nearest WE trainer, thank the current one for her help to date and transfer asap.
 
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