Travelling - scared horse (and owner!)

Identityincrisis

Identityincrisis

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Hi All

Help!

A bit of a back story, I have had my just turned 6 yr old Anglo for 3 years, he has been incredibly difficult to handle but we have overcome all of our issues and now have a great relationship, although it has been touch and go a few times!

Our longest challenge has been loading (I’ve posted MANY times on here about his loading issues) anyway I tried, unsuccessfully, for 2 ½ years to load him, the closest I got was all 4 feet in the trailer, but the longest he stayed on was 5 minutes max! He was VERY, VERY nervous. Worth noting, when I went to collect him from his breeder he was sedated for travelling, this was never mentioned before buying so I think he has had some kind of bad experience, hence his reluctance to load since. I had two IH people out to him, 1 was useless and didn’t even present him to the trailer! The other, after 9 x 2 hour sessions declared he was the most difficult loader he’d seen! He got the furthest and got all 4 feet in the trailer.

4 weeks ago I had a meltdown (not at him, just the situation), got drunk and emailed Richard Maxwell. Max came out to us and had the horse loaded with the ramp up within 4 hours!! I was amazed!! He left us some homework, I stuck to it religiously but took it slower to allow the horse to become fully comfortable on the trailer. He was standing on the trailer, on his own, ramp up, eating hay for 30 minutes a time (if not longer) I decided all was fine to try for a short journey, now hindsight, I should have done a couple of things differently BUT……… we got maybe 200 yards down our drive, driving very slowly, and heard an almighty commotion, trailer shaking etc. Thankfully we decided to get out and check, we were talking to him from the outside of the box when my Dad pointed to the gaping hole in the side of the trailer, nothing could prepare me for what I saw when I went in, my beloved horse was UNDER the breast bar by his neck, the breast bar was bent up into a V, I couldn’t release the bar because of the way it was bent. My Dad (bless him, completely un-horsey and shocked at the power of the horse to bend the bar to the extent he had) dropped the ramp, and given what had just happened the horse came our relatively calmly. After a check over, re-group and a short walk to calm ourselves, I decided to take him back to the trailer just to see if he would load, he did! I un-loaded, re-loaded then put him in the field to chill.

We’re now 2 weeks post trauma soooo, where do I go from here? The trailer is just about repaired now, I have been practising loading since and he has been great! We are at the point where he’s on the box on his own, eating hay again. How the hell do I build up the courage to move the trailer again? What do I do to ensure this doesn’t happen again? How can I make it better for him?

Hind sight shows – I should have cross tied him, and tied him A LOT shorter.

Max has suggested, and I know this will be highly controversial, travelling without the breast bar, cross tied very short. He said they regularly do this. And advised a longish journey, where as I had thought of moving a few feet, go in with him, reassure, and repeat?

Sorry for the epic post, I didn’t want to drip feed. All help (please be gentle) will be greatly appreciated.
 
I agree with Max cross ties no bars and far enough for him to get used to it all. Taking him off is a bit like rewarding him for his actions
 
I've seen a horse go under the breast bar too. It's amazing how strong they can be when they panic. We travelled this particular horse without a partition after that and he was fidgety but ok. The kicking out would worry me more but that could have been related to getting stuck under the bar.

I think the journey will be dependent on how he is when you start off. It's possibly to cheaply install a camera so you can see if he's panicking before he causes an injury to himself.
 
windand rain said:
I agree with Max cross ties no bars and far enough for him to get used to it all. Taking him off is a bit like rewarding him for his actions
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But surely if he has been calm in the trailer for a few feet this is exactly what you want to do! Reward him for being calm and not panicking.

This is one of those things where it is very much depends on your horse and what you feel would be best. Personally I would go with the drive for a few feet, get off and reward. If he has been prone to panicking in the trailer the last place you want to be is a long way from home dealing with a majorly stressed out horse.

You also run the risk of him suppressing his fear if you just keep driving and leave him to get on with it if he does get upset. Not to mention the potential for him to injure himself!

I am very much of the mind that slowly is best. Gradually increase the distance and help your horse to realise that he has nothing to worry about when travelling in the trailer.
 
Mine got his head stuck under and front leg over. I honestly thought he wasn't coming out alive but he did, fairly undamaged also (horse that is!)
After years of problems loading this scared the life out of me and the next time he had to travel I paid a transport company who travelled him loose and bedded up to the eyeballs with lots of hay.
He travelled beautifully and apparently loaded well too. In hindsight I think he fed of me and as I "knew" it would be a nightmare he got scared, I got scared= vicious circle.
Do you think having someone else try might help?
I was then far more relaxed because he had had a good experience :)
 
OP sorry to say but you've made ME nervous now and Im not your horse and I dont know you! I think you need to step aside and ask a professional to do the first few travels because you are potentially making this whole thing worse ... And I totally feel your pain, its a horrible position to be in so please dont take this as a negative. Is Max an option to come out again and actually take over with you as a none interfering passenger?
Best of luck.
 
Having had a TB try and kick the roof of a trailer in, I would now:
1. Fit a camera so as I could check for calmness.
2, Do as you did and take at least one other person/driver with me (we make a point of there being 2 when towing even an empty traler in case of an emergency)
3. Try taking a calm traveller horse or pony along for the ride to help yours settle.
4. Plan a circular route very close to home so that in the event of problems I could quickly call a halt and would not have to walk miles with the horse. Repeat that route until such time as we had all had enough e.g. a 2 mile circuit repeated 10 or 15 times is much better prospect for you than a 15 mile each way trip.
Best of luck. Our TB eventually became a good traveller even though she rarely indicated a desire to do so. Our others seem to have relished it as an opportunity to eat hay whilst undisturbed by their field companions.
 
yeah if he was mine id go back to the start on the exercises he gave you. then fit a camera as sunnyone said and just drive the car a few feet at a time. As soon as the horses head went up or he started to look uncomfortable in the slightest, id stop and let him settle and then gradually increase the distance. thats interesting what he said about the breastbar and just cross tying.
 
I would load him, x tie with no breast bar and go on a journey that gives enough time for his adrenalin to settle down. Go somewhere where he can get out and have fun. Maybe to a friends for a hack. Then bring him home. The more often you can do this the better.
 
Do travel without the Brest bar and cross tie short.
Do not in any circumstances go in the trailer with him while it moving ,its way way to dangerous .
 
Max is the only person that has managed to get your horse anywhere near travelling, the horse clearly responds well to his methods and way of thinking, there's no way I would start to doubt him now.

I have all my fingers crossed that the next step goes well for you!
 
You lot saying travel without a breast bar are braver than me. I'd forget the trailer and go for transport with herringbone partitions or a stallion stall, with nothing for the horse to get hooked up on. What sort of trailer is it? There are tales of horses trying to jump throught the large portrait window in the front of Ifor 506/511s, there's no way I'd travel a horse in one without a breast bar.
 
Personally I think travelling a horse with no breast bar is extremely dangerous. What happens if you had to stop quickly? He'd go through the front of the trailer. I had a horse who was horrific at travelling, to begin with he'd go nuts as soon as I left the trailer so I broke it into tiny stages and did a bit EVERY single day. Id put him in with no bars or anything to begin with with feed, then slowly try to get further away, eventually being able to get out of the trailer and start putting doors up. Only after he was quite settled with the doors up did I then begin the moving part. He would go mental, usually jump straight over the breast bar. So Id stay in with him and be driven round the field giving him lots of fuss when all 4 feet were on the floor! Eventually we worked up to me being out of it, then going on short journeys. He improved hugely but it took a lot of work (and feed!) and he was never perfect, he would start messing about if we had to stop the trailer so we had to creep up to red traffic lights etc. and he still jumped the bar a few times mid-journey. Terrifying, I hate trailer incidents, so dangerous. Absolute best of luck to you OP, Id suggest just taking your time and going right back to basics and just moving on a tiny bit at a time - even put the traiiler in the field and open it up, put the horses feed in it every single day etc. Has your horse got a little companion you could take that might settle him?
 
Staying in a trailer with a potentially panicking horse is far more dangerous than no breast bar. I assume the OP would be crawling along anyway to get the horse used to journeys and therefore any sudden braking isn't likely to result in a horse going through the roof...

MagicMelon said:
Personally I think travelling a horse with no breast bar is extremely dangerous. What happens if you had to stop quickly? He'd go through the front of the trailer. I had a horse who was horrific at travelling, to begin with he'd go nuts as soon as I left the trailer so I broke it into tiny stages and did a bit EVERY single day. Id put him in with no bars or anything to begin with with feed, then slowly try to get further away, eventually being able to get out of the trailer and start putting doors up. Only after he was quite settled with the doors up did I then begin the moving part. He would go mental, usually jump straight over the breast bar. So Id stay in with him and be driven round the field giving him lots of fuss when all 4 feet were on the floor! Eventually we worked up to me being out of it, then going on short journeys. He improved hugely but it took a lot of work (and feed!) and he was never perfect, he would start messing about if we had to stop the trailer so we had to creep up to red traffic lights etc. and he still jumped the bar a few times mid-journey. Terrifying, I hate trailer incidents, so dangerous. Absolute best of luck to you OP, Id suggest just taking your time and going right back to basics and just moving on a tiny bit at a time - even put the traiiler in the field and open it up, put the horses feed in it every single day etc. Has your horse got a little companion you could take that might settle him?
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Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

I am hugely considering taking myself out of the equation altogether as i will be so stressed (I'm completely fine loading him, it's just moving now!) although Max did say not to worry too much if I'm nervous.

After he suggested the no breast bar thing i googled it and 99% said no way which is what I expected here but as said above, i will be travelling so slow on a private drive the emergency stop isn't an issue.

I agree I shouldn't start doubting Max now and i will try the no breast bar but stick with moving a few feet and rewarding him

Thank you all once again and fingers crossed for next weekend
 
Michen said:
Staying in a trailer with a potentially panicking horse is far more dangerous than no breast bar. I assume the OP would be crawling along anyway to get the horse used to journeys and therefore any sudden braking isn't likely to result in a horse going through the roof...
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I agree getting in the trailer isnt a great idea and I wouldnt suggest OP did that. I did, that was my choice and it worked for the purpose intended. Yes OP will likely be driving slowly but at the same time, even having to slam the brakes on at 30mph would cause the horse to fall forwards. I just dont get why anyone would ever risk that. This horse went under the bar, this could easily be stopped by simply tying tighter so it cant get its head under the bar. Removing the breastbar IMO is rather severe.
 
If it's any consolation I am doing this and paying a pro to work with my horse. Not really because of the horse or the issue but I am so stressed in other areas of life (work!) at the moment that I don't think I am conducive to dealing with the problem.

Nothing wrong with taking a step back IMO


Identityincrisis said:
Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

I am hugely considering taking myself out of the equation altogether as i will be so stressed (I'm completely fine loading him, it's just moving now!) although Max did say not to worry too much if I'm nervous.

After he suggested the no breast bar thing i googled it and 99% said no way which is what I expected here but as said above, i will be travelling so slow on a private drive the emergency stop isn't an issue.

I agree I shouldn't start doubting Max now and i will try the no breast bar but stick with moving a few feet and rewarding him

Thank you all once again and fingers crossed for next weekend
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AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Max is the only person that has managed to get your horse anywhere near travelling, the horse clearly responds well to his methods and way of thinking, there's no way I would start to doubt him now.

I have all my fingers crossed that the next step goes well for you!
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This.

He will be fine, the constant stop start to reward would be more stressful.

When we have traveled horses that have enter travels before once they were in taut was it and off we went no problems.
 
I am entirely going against the flow here - although it is clear that RM has done some great work with your horse - If he were mine - I would be drawing a line. I infact know someone who bought a lovely AA for endurance who behaved the same, he became her local hacking distance show horse - to me this is something clearly so incredibly traumatic to your horse - there is no reason to put your horse through such trauma for personal gain - just work around it, hack, school and compete it locally within its comfort zone. If we were talking dentistry or farriery issues of this extremity I would understand, but boxing for the sake of what? Getting to shows for your delight... I see this as the wrong path personally. This is not a horse that plants or rears in disgruntledness... it is such an extreme reaction - and when you start moving it gets worse to the extent that it is endangering the horse. My view will not be everyone's but I would not be forcing a resolution on this - addressing issues of trauma for reasons that relate to the health and wellbeing of the horse is fine, but reasons for personal enjoyment - selfish. I get that you may come back with the argument of 'what if we need to travel to a vets?' my answer would be that that would be the only time I would travel such a horse and I would have it sedated first for its own safety.
 
I have to say that the advice also concerns me for a different reason. Allowing the horse to travel without the breast bar means that he could stand further forward than where the breast bar would be which will affect the nose weight of the trailer and therefore the stability of the trailer and the towing vehicle. Ifor Williams in particular make this information clear in their new trailers but this has always been the case.
 
SarahWeston said:
I have to say that the advice also concerns me for a different reason. Allowing the horse to travel without the breast bar means that he could stand further forward than where the breast bar would be which will affect the nose weight of the trailer and therefore the stability of the trailer and the towing vehicle. Ifor Williams in particular make this information clear in their new trailers but this has always been the case.
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In all honesty - corrrectly x-tying a horse, should not be a problem, the dynamic implications are minimal and I would strongly expect that with the popularity of x-tying and the ability to take out the partition - it would be accommodated in the structural design
 
I have a horse who is very tricky to load - I have had him nearly 11 years and we practise almost every day - weather and daylight permitting, loading. my best advice is don't rush, listen to what your horse is trying to tell you about how they feel - I know that I wasn't listening as carefully as I should have which has lead to issues over the years - people at shows care and want to help - unfortunately with my horse they really aren't - he doesn't like a audience and certainly can't load with people he doesn't know watching. I have recently realised (thick mum - not listening properly) that he is not saying no, rather that he is saying I need more time - as a consequence I wait and let him take things in - he actually travels very well - I would suggest you do very short trips - I do cross tie but have no middle patrician but use a front breast bar - when I didn't we arrived at a show he hadn't been cross tied, turned round and popped the window out - he was fine but I wouldn't recommend doing that again. to build up his confidence we load morning before he goes in the field, the afternoon when I get him in - we often go for a drive round the block and then again after we have ridden, I know it is a bit of a pain but if I didn't invest as much time I know he wouldn't load - even then it doesn't always work - it took me over an hour to load at hargate last weekend - a lovely lady was stood chatting - but he wouldn't load while she was there!! once she left he loaded and I was able to put the back of the trailer up - I go everywhere on my own - I tend to find it is easier - my key message is don't rush, don't let other people interfere - Richard has obviously helped you with techniques - stick to them - I have worked with grant bazin and he really helped, they do know what works, be patient and have confidence that you are doing the right thing.
 
Queenbee said:
In all honesty - corrrectly x-tying a horse, should not be a problem, the dynamic implications are minimal and I would strongly expect that with the popularity of x-tying and the ability to take out the partition - it would be accommodated in the structural design
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I'm with SarahWeston on this. Even in short cross ties, a horse can move forward or back quite a long way. Trailers such as Ifors are NOT designed to take weight in the nose cone area, it would put too much weight on the hitch assembly (which is strictly limited according to the tow car/tow bar combo) so the trailer would go nose down and the tow vehicle nose up.

Also, what if the horse steps forwards and back continually whislt in the cross ties, which an unsettled traveller may well do? The trailer balance would be see sawing back to front and the whole combination could lose control at road going speeds.

OP, these travel issues must be be so frustrating and worrying for you. Some horses simply will not safely travel in a trailer, my diva mare was very tricky and claustrophobic, but she is now ok as long as she has a companion. The yard where my youngster is in loan have two cracking ponies which were cheap beacuse they won't travel in a trailer, but are fine going herringbone in a 7.5+ lorry.
 
My home-bred horses have rarely given me a problem - 5 minutes to go on - and then we're off. But had a couple of 'bad' ones recently. The first had travelled before, in a trailer. The box that arrived to collect her was a ghastly 31/2 tonne convert with low roof. Te minute we closed her in, she panicked - and wrecked it. The buyer ran, lol. So since then we have loaded her in the trailer a few times - but gone nowhere. She remembers the fear. When we have to transport her next, it will be Sedalin. The second had never travelled before - walked on fine (IW 511) and then panicked. We whizzed him off, whacked a full tube of Sedalin into him and waited an hour. He loaded and travelled fine and the buyer has plans to repeat this several times with lesser doses. Never, ever travel a horse in a trailer without a front bar - it's a recipe for disaster!
 
It is such a shame that many breeders do not introduce loading and travelling at a very early age, it would make life so much easier for the young horses and future owners.

The difficult ones I have done have been sedated, big time in the cart horse's case. I do think a lorry is a better and safer way of travelling horses if at all possible.

I was on the M5 in Gloucestershire yesterday and saw a trailer with the front top door open and the horse with its head over the ramp. Unbelievable, unsafe, stupid and I would imagine illegal ?
 
OP, I don't really have anything to offer advice wise that others haven't suggested. Part of me thinks that you should give Max's advice a go (and who knows, perhaps after a few journeys, you could put the breast bar back?) but I would also be concerned about the weight in the nose of the trailer.

But what a horrid and stressful situation for you, and I can completely see why you are so distressed about it. Please keep us updated.
 
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