Trotting on the road

Auslander said:
Here's Davids article about roadwork https://www.facebook.com/davidmarli...3421046862124/572928736244685/?type=3&theater
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Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'
 
Amicus said:
Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
*metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride*.

*They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot* ......

*Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses*.

*These are lower in barefoot horses*.

..... a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, ****although these will be less than for a shod horse***..'
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Thank you. Just in case you missed it gunner I have highlighted the important parts for you since you've missed them.
 
It has worried me (and I think those that have cantered on roads before are nuts! But thats my opinion) so I trot only really to get out of the way as required for traffic, blind bends (unavoidably unfortunately) and just if I feel like he's getting cold inbetween field canters / gallops. Generally, its no more than 5 minutes per hack at most in short bursts. Marching walk is my preference.

He is shod on all four btw and has previously had an injury of some sort to one of his fores for the record, although has never been lame.

My barefoot has the exact same treatment, and he too has sustained an injury to his fore (fractured somewhere once). Personally I can see the difference between shod ans unshod to be minor, and would treat then the same. It's a solid surface and I know I would prefer to er on the side of caution, and I wouldn't go abouts trotting for too long myself :)
 
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gunnergundog said:
And just in case you missed it he says:



The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb
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But as far as I can see the surface your working a horse on wouldn't change it either, the mass of the horse and rider is the same on sand/grass/tarmac? Think FFione is talking about concussion rather than force.
 
popsdosh said:
Roadwork was always considered the best for all hunters and Racehorses. EKW I too saw that study very enlightening it compared injuries in young horses that did roadwork as routine against those that didnt and the conclusion was roadwork actually helped strengthen the bone and particularly in TBs they suffered less fractures in racing than those that didnt
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There's plenty of stuff out there on tinterweb regarding impact exercise being good for human bone density, so I can well believe that there's more than a grain of truth in the old fashioned eventer/hunter/racer fittening programmes that advocated 6 weeks of road work before moving up through the gears.
 
Our modern interpretation of excessive trotting is vastly different to the circumstances that lead to the accepted wisdom that too much trotting on roads is bad .Back when carriage horses might be working and trotting for many hours every day ,it was certainly true. As for the barefoot versus shod argument , It is not the concussive force of the hoof (shod or not) that is the major factor in my opinion . Try hitting a hard object with a lump of wood , now try it with a lump of steel . The steel hurts! why,? shockwaves in steel travel much faster and deliver the energy in what might be described as a hard punch (if you are not familiar with the word Brisance). My concern is the cumulative effect of these powerful vibrations . In humans we refer to white finger disease. I would expect something similar.I seriously doubt whether the odd canter on semi hard tracks is harmful either. I have done this many times out hunting but have seen followers gallop full tilt into deep mud that I would only walk through.!
 
Back in the day in the UK when I was working on livery yards and hunter yards 1 hours steady trotting on the road was the fitness program for the majority of the horses.

The trot was referred to as a 'Hound Jog' around 8 - 10 miles an hour. We didn't seem to have any problems with the horses, they were extremely fit and hooves were really hard, we also hacked on flint paths with no stone bruises or the like.

The amount of work done on grass and soft surfaces I believe affects the strength and durability of the hooves.

Here in NZ where road work is minimal and most horses are worked exclusively on grass I've seen many, many stone bruises and abscesses.

Care had to be taken on icy days or when trotting around blind corners on narrow lanes.
 
gunnergundog said:
Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot. Quote Marlin.
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I must have a miracle horse then as I've probably clocked up weeks worth of hours trotting on the roads with my gelding both shod and unshod.

I read that article and being honest i am not barefoot crazy but I found the inconsistencies disturbing so I left a big question mark over his claims.

The dissection video floating around that shows a hoof under concussion with a shoe on and without proves to lessen the impact therfore dulling the vibrations travelling up the legs.
 
I could easily have imagined it but I seem to remember reading some time ago that there is less concussion cantering than trotting, I don't quite know if I would canter were it true anyway but we do trot out on the road but not for miles at a time partly because both horse and rider aren't that fit and partly due to the potential impact on joints etc and never downhill.
 
LD&S said:
I could easily have imagined it but I seem to remember reading some time ago that there is less concussion cantering than trotting, I don't quite know if I would canter were it true anyway but we do trot out on the road but not for miles at a time partly because both horse and rider aren't that fit and partly due to the potential impact on joints etc and never downhill.
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Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly
 
I do trot on the roads, not as much as I used to, but that is mainly because I don't hack as much as I used to.

I used to hunt 2/3 times a week and trotted a lot on the roads, both at home and out hunting. Can't say I have noticed a difference in the soundness of my horses.
 
Amicus said:
Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'
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What absolute rubbish. He's certainly no engineer!! If you're having trouble breaking a rock you get a sledgehammer with a heavier head.

The presence of half a pound to a pound of metal on the end of a long lever most definitely makes an enormous difference to the overall force on the lever (limb).

If anyone wants the science on that, because it's not my personal unsubstantiated opinion, I'll gladly look it up for you.

He's spouting off his own personal opinion with no proof at all that any amount of trotting a barefoot horse on the road is damaging.
 
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We have fabulous bridleways around us, but they are riddled with rabbit and badger holes so for me, trotting on the roads is safer! That said, I only do shortish bursts, perhaps half a mile max at a time and always on the level or uphill. As with most things, there are so many factors to take into account and what suits some, wont suit others.
 
Tnavas said:
Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly
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I was only referring to the concussion effect
 
What kind of surfaces are on your roads as that makes a big difference? if it is smooth tarmac it is a very nice surface to trot on as it has a very slight 'bounce' to it, concrete tracks and pot-holey damaged roads are a very different prospect.

There's also a small matter of there being trotting and trotting - those of us who regularly trot on the road do not hammer along on the forehand, we look to keep the horse at a rhythmical pace (what used to be called 'hound jog').

Interestingly, my native ponies prefer to trot on a good tarmac surface rather than the grassy verges, they will veer onto the road off the verges. Probably some instinct to keep their feet well away from potential soft patches/bogs after all they are the experts on where it's safe to put their feet.
 
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popsdosh said:
Roadwork was always considered the best for all hunters and Racehorses. EKW I too saw that study very enlightening it compared injuries in young horses that did roadwork as routine against those that didnt and the conclusion was roadwork actually helped strengthen the bone and particularly in TBs they suffered less fractures in racing than those that didnt
Click to expand...

And that's just the thing with horses few things are wholly good or wholly bad .
While it's fact that roadwork is great for bone health is it good for joint health ? The studies were done in racehorses and they were looking at stress fractures .
My horses hunt and some days they will do a lot of fast roadwork but I would never trot for an hour on the road for exercise .
 
We regularly used to go on "trottings" for fittening work. Trotting on a nice flat smooth surface like tarmac is much easier on the limbs than trotting on an overly deep surface (whether it's grass covered, sand school etc).

We'd do about 8-10km in an hour, 95% of which was trotting all on the road.

When I did that regularly, his feet had never been better, and it actually seemed to improve his movement wrt his spavins.
 
Goldenstar said:
And that's just the thing with horses few things are wholly good or wholly bad .
While it's fact that roadwork is great for bone health is it good for joint health ? The studies were done in racehorses and they were looking at stress fractures .
My horses hunt and some days they will do a lot of fast roadwork but I would never trot for an hour on the road for exercise .
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Not sure about joints to be honest as personally would rather see a horse working on a relatively even surface(road rather than verge everytime) and there has always been the argument that the small amount of slip on tarmac actually helps protect the joints from excess lateral and longitudinal forces.Not only that it does help tendons and ligaments as well as bone. I know a lot of vets who blame school surfaces for a lot of the increase in certain gait disorders. Dont even get me started on horsewalkers with rubber floors
 
I never trot for long on the roads, never on a decline however slight.
I will trot on inclines but for approx. 20 strides and that's it. I also change my diagonal frequently.

The vet told me it was okay to trot on the roads, but previous advice I had has always been not to, so I am confused.

Finally I always put the Westropp brushing/knee boots on my horse whenever I hack out on tarmac.
 
Have trotted on the roads exercising hunters and pt-to -pters for many years. Often for over a mile maybe two. And up inclines. Even steadily down gentle inclines. Not once has there been a leg problem caused by it. A sensible trot, mind, not a flat out butcher boy trot. And not on icy/slippery roads.
I would freeze to death this weather if I only walked on the roads!!
 
ycbm said:
What absolute rubbish. He's certainly no engineer!! If you're having trouble breaking a rock you get a sledgehammer with a heavier head.

The presence of half a pound to a pound of metal on the end of a long lever most definitely makes an enormous difference to the overall force on the lever (limb).

If anyone wants the science on that, because it's not my personal unsubstantiated opinion, I'll gladly look it up for you.

He's spouting off his own personal opinion with no proof at all that any amount of trotting a barefoot horse on the road is damaging.
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It depends which end you are assuming the forces are coming from ! I think you will find he and others assume that half a ton of horse with a rider on top creates more mechanical forces to damage a limb than .25kg on the bottom of the foot .
What he actually implied was that any roadwork can be detrimental and that unshod was better but not immune to damage.
As I said above a shod hoof actually slips slightly more than unshod on tarmac so it could be argued actually helps protect joints more.
 
I do trot my horses on the road, both the shod and bare footed one. I choose only to do short bursts with both. I'm pretty sure its better to build up to longer distances. I was always told not to trot down hill on the road as the horse could slip, not such a problem with the bare footed horse. At this point I would not want to join a hack where there was a lot of trotting, or it was the main pace. Maybe OP you should post on FB for a riding buddy who does not want to trot so much. It matters not whether it will harm your horse, whether its ok or not, if you choose not to do so then its your horse , your choice. You just need to find an appropriate buddy. Maybe one of those people will come out for a slower hack if you spoke to them and explained, maybe they just don't realise they are trotting that much.
 
Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills. It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working. Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road. This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
 
We trot for miles, ridden and driven, on tarmac roads. These ponies are the type who will refuse point blank to go up a gear if they don't like the surface. They LIKE cantering on tarmac. It has a slight spring, decent grip, and is predictably stone-free.

11 ponies, 20 years, hardly a day lame (barefoot). Oldest is over 30, still going out with the others and one of them had a catastrophic shoulder trauma, now almost completely recovered. My experience is that progressive roadwork (i.e. built up over time, not right away for a young horse) seems to give them sound strong limbs - as practised by old fashioned hunter trainers.

Funny how many folk won't trot on roads, but think nothing of lunging a youngster on a deep soft surface, then wonder why it's always lame!
 
I was thinking a driver's viewpoint might be useful given the amount of work that needs to be done for driving trials ;) personally I've always done a fair bit but usually 5-10 mins a time and mostly when he is walk is getting too irritatingly slow :p, I'm not sure it did harm or good, it's not something that has overly bothered me but he's old so :p
 
I make sure my younger horses have always do a small amount of trotting on roads, but I literally mean a short steady burst up one road for a minute or two, rather than 10 minutes of it. Then I may add another short burst in again on the way home.

My horse who had a massive Tendon injury in the field is always walked for 1-2 weeks out on roads before returning to the manège after any significant amount of time off. I really do believe it has kept him sound (he was effectively written off as injury was so severe but I gave him 18 months off and then introduced daily road walking, horse sound as any other now and had remained so in work).
Give me an even road over an uneven not harrowed manege any day of the week!
 
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