Trotting on the road

[indie1282]

Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills. It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working. Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road. This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.

This.

Walking up hills is much harder work than bowling on in trot. I know someone who's vet advised them to do lots of trotting, but when they do ride they trot flat out on the forehand - which imo isn't doing the legs much good!

I'm quite old school and still do my 2 -3 weeks walking when I'm bringing back in to work and do not go near an arena un till 6 - 8 weeks. I do some trot work but I pick my road surface and I do a steady balanced trot and am always aiming to have the horse soft and in a nice length of frame rather than pounding the roads.

 

[ihatework]

Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly

Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter

 

[be positive]

Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills. It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working. Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road. This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.

This.

Walking up hills is much harder work than bowling on in trot. I know someone who's vet advised them to do lots of trotting, but when they do ride they trot flat out on the forehand - which imo isn't doing the legs much good!

I'm quite old school and still do my 2 -3 weeks walking when I'm bringing back in to work and do not go near an arena un till 6 - 8 weeks. I do some trot work but I pick my road surface and I do a steady balanced trot and am always aiming to have the horse soft and in a nice length of frame rather than pounding the roads.

I am also old school and like to do plenty of roadwork when fittening, I think that ideally horses will do a variety of work on many different surfaces to condition them fully, so many never get outside of an arena are always on a "perfect" surface yet suffer from injuries that may be prevented if they were properly conditioned by working on roads, grass and even the odd rutted bridleway to help with balance.

 

[chestnut cob]

I do trot on the roads but not hell for leather. Mine had an injury last year and his rehab work (from vet and physio) included hours of hacking on the roads with up to 50% trot, but that had to be short bursts with lots of transitions. I wouldn't go for miles in trot. I would get the horse working properly in walk then do lots of transitions on hills and flatter areas, so he'd only trot for a couple of hundred yards max in a stretch, but that would involve transitions (back to walk and within the trot), lots of half halts, and later on, lateral work when the road was clear. I wasn't allowed to do circles or school work for a while; all of his strengthening work had to be done on the roads in straight lines, but "proper" schooling with the horse working correctly.

I don't see a problem with trotting on the road as long as you're not going flat out and hammering them. I'd rather do the above work on tarmac roads than a horrible, deep surface of an arena which can create even more problems.

 

[Nudibranch]

Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills. It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working. Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road. This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.

How refreshing to hear the importance of walk these days! I have always worked really hard to establish a proper walk on youngsters, especially the current one who is big, somewhat lazy and very unbalanced. Yet I am often nagged about starting canter work with him by horsey friends (and the vet, who should know better) - sorry, but not until the walk is right and then the trot. I'm not even *that* old, but it seems many these days seem to prioritise the faster paces and walk is forgotten.

Anyway, that was a bit off topic. IMO, short periods of trot with an unshod horse are a positive (once they are ready!).

 

[be positive]

Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter

That advice makes sense, it is a bit like training a racehorse, you want it fit to gallop and jump so use canter as much as you can, there is going to be less concussion in a light balanced canter than in trot so the horse should have more chance of staying sound.

No idea why cantering should burn away muscle that makes no sense when you look at a well muscled racehorse that probably never does any trotting.

 

[Abacus]

(and I think those that have cantered on roads before are nuts! But thats my opinion)

I was out hunting 2 days ago and we were trotting along a road. We weren't trotting fast especially by hunt standards. The horse in front of me was cantering - a nice steady canter, neither very bouncy nor very fast. I was watching it and the horse beside it who was trotting, and thinking about the concussion and why we generally think that a bit of trot on the road is ok but would normally not canter. This is a very subjective view based on a sample of only 2 horses, but I wouldn't say that the cantering horse looked to be pounding the road any harder than the trotting horse.

 

[respectedpony driver]

Well this is an interesting thread.I drive and it is usual to trot on the road,my pony has boots on.She also canters up some hills on the road,I can hear the OMG's now but it is easier for her to keep the momentum going,she does it herself.

 

[pennyturner]

We drive for 10 miles on the road without coming out of trot some days. That means that if a rider is out with us, they have to do the same to keep up. We should probably do more to make sure the riders are changing the leg more often, as they're likely doing most of it on the same diagonal. The riders sometimes have a problem keeping up the trot for a couple of hours, but the ponies don't.

We also routinely canter the hills. It's much easier to take a run up with a heavy load to pull. In fact there are a couple of roads locally where the driving ponies enjoy a good gallop up the hill (the horror!) I like them to be happy in all paces in harness, especially on the road. That way when something happens, a shy is unlikely to turn into a bolt.

 

[smja]

We trot ours on the road. It was the key to getting my short-striding little horse to let go through his back and take a longer stride BUT as others have said, care should be taken not to push the horse too fast/onto the forehand.

However, the main thing is that it should be built up gradually - you don't take a horse that has never trotted on a road and trot about for an hour. It needs to be increased over time, the same as any other kind of work we ask our horses to do.

 

[Birker2020]

Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills. It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working. Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road. This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.

I trot up hill as it is kinder on the tendons when you trot up an incline. A horse with a suspensory branch problem (which I have encountered with my own) has less chance of injuring itself uphill.

When I started doing some very slight jogging on the treadmill at the Gym I remembered my equine physio's advice about trotting uphill and made the treadmill work on a incline.

 

[Amye]

A very interesting thread! Some good points raised and i'll be looking into them further.

I do trot my boy on the roads - roadwork is really the only work we can do for a short hack (around an hour) around here. I mostly keep to walk but trot him up the hills and will have a trot along one of the flats too sometimes. The hills are quite steep so we always walk coming down. He's shod and our trots are mostly in short bursts.

My previous loan horse I didn't trot on the roads as the owner didn't like it as he'd previously had splints - she didn't mind us trotting round a blind bend if needed but nothing more. But at the yard now, I know lots of people trot on the roads in short bursts.

 

[ycbm]

It depends which end you are assuming the forces are coming from ! I think you will find he and others assume that half a ton of horse with a rider on top creates more mechanical forces to damage a limb than .25kg on the bottom of the foot .
What he actually implied was that any roadwork can be detrimental and that unshod was better but not immune to damage.
As I said above a shod hoof actually slips slightly more than unshod on tarmac so it could be argued actually helps protect joints more.

I take your point that the additional weight of a shoe seems miniscule compared to the weight of a horse and rider.

But I think the effect of the shoe is completely disproportionate for two reasons. The first is that it is additional weight on the end of a long lever. It multiplies the effect.

The second is that the leg bones of the front legs are not jointed to the skeleton. They are attached only by soft tissue. Therefore the majority of shock absorption of the weight of the body and rider will take place in the shoulder soft tissue. So again, the impact of additional weight on the foot will have a very disproportionate effect on the leg joints.


I trot for a few minutes at a time on roads, but I canter up hills often. My cob has thrown two whacking great splints. Interestingly, he did it after being out of work for several months due to my illnesses, and before he did any road work.

 

[popsdosh]

I trot up hill as it is kinder on the tendons when you trot up an incline. A horse with a suspensory branch problem (which I have encountered with my own) has less chance of injuring itself uphill.

When I started doing some very slight jogging on the treadmill at the Gym I remembered my equine physio's advice about trotting uphill and made the treadmill work on a incline.

Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.

 

[Bernster]

I don't do much trotting on the road - I hate the sound of shoes on the road but I am a bf fan although have one horse shod atm. I will start short bursts as part of our interval training but fortunately we have very few roads around here so most of this is done on a good surface. I do tend to be careful and only do fast work (trotting and cantering) on a good surface, and avoid it on hard or too boggy ground.

 

[popsdosh]

I take your point that the additional weight of a shoe seems miniscule compared to the weight of a horse and rider.

But I think the effect of the shoe is completely disproportionate for two reasons. The first is that it is additional weight on the end of a long lever. It multiplies the effect.

The second is that the leg bones of the front legs are not jointed to the skeleton. They are attached only by soft tissue. Therefore the majority of shock absorption of the weight of the body and rider will take place in the shoulder soft tissue. So again, the impact of additional weight on the foot will have a very disproportionate effect on the leg joints.


I trot for a few minutes at a time on roads, but I canter up hills often. My cob has thrown two whacking great splints. Interestingly, he did it after being out of work for several months due to my illnesses, and before he did any road work.

I could have sworn you put the horse doesnt have a shoulder joint ,must be my mistake

 

[cobgoblin]

Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'

I agree with this. In addition the barefoot horse should have more frog in contact with the road thus giving a larger area to dissipate the forces....a bit like a human running on concrete in a pair of hard soled shoes versus trainers.

 

[ester]

Fwiw I was of the same thought as popsdosh the presence of a shoe doesn't change ultimately the force, but IMO it does change what then happens to it.

 

[TheMule]

Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.

Thank you!
I hate people spouting off rubbish science. Flexor tendons will have more strain going through them whilst going uphill both because of incresed strength of muscular contraction to propel the horse up against gravity and due to the simple rules of angles.
Concussion is reduced going uphill which will be most beneficial to joints

 

[ester]

I thought that applecart was saying she trotted uphill rather than walked because of the tendon strain rather than the uphill/downhill argument?

 

[ycbm]

I could have sworn you put the horse doesnt have a shoulder joint ,must be my mistake

I don't understand this comment? The horses front leg bones are not jointed to the skeleton. The connection is soft tissue only. What point are you trying to make?

 

[TheMule]

I thought that applecart was saying she trotted uphill rather than walked because of the tendon strain rather than the uphill/downhill argument?

But that's still rubbish- there's an increased force when trotting so it will always be more straining than walking

 

[tallyho!]

Very interesting thread, interesting to read David Marlin - no idea who he was until today. Would like an opinion from someone in the USA that does do research into barefoot and concussion like Dr Robert Bowker, Tomas Teskey or one of the farriers like KC La Pierre, Jaime Jackson or Pete Ramey. This would balance things out a little... here is one link, there are many.. http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/concussion.htm

In these discussions, I very much can't help myself but think of the wild horse and what they are capable of living on the hardest landscapes on earth without any of them seeing a farrier/trimmer all their lives. They live to over 30years. Look up Cloud the Stallion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajX0agx0O4w

I do trot my horse on the roads but only in short intervals and tarmac is pretty incredible as a surface but very hard on on shod hooves. A barefoot hoof is probably better designed to cope with such surfaces, even so, I would not do it for 1hr non-stop on tarmac. I would if it was a more varied terrain and a mix of footings. However, I'm very aware that a domesticated horse cannot adapt to the surfaces we make them work on as they are stabled/paddock kept for most of the time. We can't expect a hoof to be a wild hoof if we can't expose it to "wild" conditions. The closest we can get is a "Paddock Paradise" system and I see more and more of these as I drive around. Encouraging and perhaps we will one day move to a more "hoof friendly" way of keeping horses.

 

[ester]

But that's still rubbish- there's an increased force when trotting so it will always be more straining than walking

I'm trying to work out if there is a stride length/momentum argument for that not being the case. I only thought that because it was a reply to AS saying she walked because it was harder (can't remember exact wording and on phone), maybe AC can elaborate.

 

[popsdosh]

I don't understand this comment? The horses front leg bones are not jointed to the skeleton. The connection is soft tissue only. What point are you trying to make?

It was light hearted because I could have sworn you stated the horse does not have a shoulder joint ,before it was edited

 

[Tnavas]

Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.

The correct position for the rider going downhill is folded forward, similar to a light jumping position. Keeping the body vertical puts additional weight on the horses hindquarters making it harder for them to move freely.

 

[ester]

Which is why popsdosh was referring to the natural shift of the body not what you necessarily should do. More importantly can you respond to the queries about canter and muscles?

 

[Tnavas]

In these discussions, I very much can't help myself but think of the wild horse and what they are capable of living on the hardest landscapes on earth without any of them seeing a farrier/trimmer all their lives. They live to over 30years. Look up Cloud the Stallion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajX0agx0O4w
.

Watched the movie and wondered if you noticed how many of those wild horses actually were moving unlevelness on that stony surface.

I can't find the article, archeologists working with fossilised horse bones found that many had signs of navicular, ring bone, side one and laminitis. These ones had never even seen a human.

 

[Tnavas]

Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter

Which is why popsdosh was referring to the natural shift of the body not what you necessarily should do. More importantly can you respond to the queries about canter and muscles?

Aerobic and anaerobic. Have to go to work, read this article, http://equimed.com/health-centers/fitness-and-conditioning/articles/effects-of-equine-conditioning

 

[ihatework]

Aerobic and anaerobic. Have to go to work, read this article, http://equimed.com/health-centers/fitness-and-conditioning/articles/effects-of-equine-conditioning

Oh deary me ....
And that folks is an example of why to be careful what you consider might be gospel on an Internet forum