Trotting on the road

If it didn't matter or made no difference to the body then we would see people out running in Tackety boots rather than shoes designed to absorb the concussion and support the foot oh just like a barefoot on a horse is designed to do. To compare that marvellous structure to a metal band is just ridiculous.

I know myself I stupidly started running while out walking a horse so not wearing the correct footwear. I had sore shins and heels immediately. Had to stop for 2 weeks and restart with trainers on and I am fine.
 
FfionWinnie said:
If it didn't matter or made no difference to the body then we would see people out running in Tackety boots rather than shoes designed to absorb the concussion and support the foot oh just like a barefoot on a horse is designed to do. To compare that marvellous structure to a metal band is just ridiculous.

I know myself I stupidly started running while out walking a horse so not wearing the correct footwear. I had sore shins and heels immediately. Had to stop for 2 weeks and restart with trainers on and I am fine.
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If you had walked for a couple of weeks, then done short runs interspersed with walks no matter what you wore on your feet you would not have suffered from sore shins! You did not prepare your body first for the work level you wanted to do.

As many of the older folk on here have said - they have trotted on the road for an hour or so at a time and have sound, strong footed horses.

I know that the barefoot horse would not be able to get to the level of fitness that hunters need to be - they have to be able to gallop fast, AND be able to do so several hours into a meet. There feet would be worn away after the first couple of weeks road work.
 
I didn't walk the second time either that was the point I was making. Amazing how my horses feet haven't worn away. Must be 'cause I conditioned them to the work load ;)

Frankly I don't care if people want to shoe their horses, it's up to them.

My point is you cannot surely believe it's just the same concussion on the feet and limbs whatever you do with the end of the feet. Heads out sand - of course it cannot possibly BE the same.
 
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Tnavas said:
I know that the barefoot horse would not be able to get to the level of fitness that hunters need to be - they have to be able to gallop fast, AND be able to do so several hours into a meet. There feet would be worn away after the first couple of weeks road work.
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There are plenty of barefoot horses hunting.

Have you also somehow missed hearing about barefoot horses doing long distance?
 
I've never had the finances or holiday to try twice a week so can't let you know on that front :D and it wouldn't be fair on a 23 yo either. ;)

Tnavas actually said they couldn't get to the level of fitness as opposed to they couldn't do the job. I think it is perfectly possible to get them to that level of fitness. With regards to the job it must also depend a bit on your country, only done two but very different amounts of roadwork, one quite a bit but all flat Tarmac, the other barely none but sometimes a fair amount of stoney byway depending on the meet.
 
There are a lot of ways for horses to lame themselves in the wild (fighting would be one of them). I saw a pretty lame Przewalski stallion in Mongolia –*could have been from running over relatively rocky upland or a slip on grass or fighting or... Generally adult horses are too big to be eaten by the local wolves though – they would have to be very lame indeed.
 
Goldenstar said:
Yes but they don't do thirty mile endurance rider twice a week that's what my hunters do
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You barefoot hunted your guy one day a week without any problems, or that's what you told me at the time when you had asked for my help by PM.

It was doubling the hunting to twice a week in one step, as I recall, that caused the issues. No-one has any idea what would have happened if it had been possible (it isn't) to do the increase more slowly.

There are barefoot horses in endurance doing more mileage than your hunters. I'm not saying they all can do it, I'm simply responding to Tnavas' statement that getting a horse hunting fit would wear out its feet.

Since I've done exactly that myself with 100% road work on multiple horses, I know that's not true.
 
FfionWinnie said:
You don't have to be an engineer to know that suggesting it "harms the road" and not the horse is complete bunkum.
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I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .
 
Mike007 said:
I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .
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Every fencing contractor I know has a sore leading shoulder and back from wielding a sledgehammer or similar.
 
Mike007 said:
I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .
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Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Every fencing contractor I know has a sore leading shoulder and back from wielding a sledgehammer or similar.
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No doubt ,but it is not the sledgehammer striking the post that does the damage .It is the period before the impact when the user is trying to accelerate the hammer head. Poor technique is the problem ,not letting the hammer do the work .
 
This sledgehammer analogy is silly. Kinetic energy is all in the movement of the hammer, and then when that movement is suddenly stopped as it impacts an immovable object the sum of the energy has to instantaneously be dissipated through the two bodies (hammer and immovable object), or through heat or sound. If one of the items experiences forces in the impact that causes it to break then that does not mean that no forces were absorbed by the other body. If you hit someone in the face you may break their nose but it will probably also hurt your hand.

However, this is irrelevant because the horseshoe is not part of the horse's foot. At the point that the hoof hits the road there are two impacts happening simultaneously - one between shoe and road and one between shoe and hoof. Shod horses are in effect always trotting on a metal surface that is sprung to a greater or lesser extent (depending on whether you're riding on sand, tarmac etc.)
 
FfionWinnie said:
I didn't walk the second time either that was the point I was making. Amazing how my horses feet haven't worn away. Must be 'cause I conditioned them to the work load ;)

Frankly I don't care if people want to shoe their horses, it's up to them.

My point is you cannot surely believe it's just the same concussion on the feet and limbs whatever you do with the end of the feet. Heads out sand - of course it cannot possibly BE the same.
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Why do people shoe their horses? Its to protect their precious feet from the wear and tear of their work load and the terrain they have to work on. My girl has been unshod all her life - yet when her work load increased prior to HOY she went footsore and I ended up having her shod.

We must all know what it feels like when you break a nail down to the live area - it is extremely painful. It depends very much on the terrain you work over, we have areas in NZ which are pumice - extremely wearing - areas where rivers used to run millions of years ago full of pebbles and boulders. Massive areas of peat where the ground is always soft.

FfionWinnie - Mike 007 is correct - the tar seal is only semi solid - it moves, it absorbs and is abrasive too, it dents and damages, rain and snow can make holes in it. Concrete on the other hand is unyielding.

Again from decades of experience with a multitude of horses - they stayed sound, didn't suffer from stone bruises like the horses that live and work on grass. Road work toughens up feet and limbs.
 
SusannaF said:
There are a lot of ways for horses to lame themselves in the wild (fighting would be one of them). I saw a pretty lame Przewalski stallion in Mongolia –*could have been from running over relatively rocky upland or a slip on grass or fighting or... Generally adult horses are too big to be eaten by the local wolves though – they would have to be very lame indeed.
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Most horses recover. If you watch the film "Cloud the Stallion" you will see that they are always injuring themselves - they're wild! All wild animals get injured but they heal and live their lives. If there no wolves, and they stay lame (hoof, leg, whatever) then they don't keep up with the herd and either starve or get beaten up by the next lot of horses - life's tough for them.
 
Northern Hare said:
Apologies if this has already been raised on this thread, but I wonder if the horses' action also affects the amount of concussion caused by trotting on the road?

For example my horse is a TBxWB (25 yo) and has a quite a straight/pointy toe foreleg action, and on the odd occasion we do any roadwork, at every opportunity he wants to head off into trot and he seems to really enjoy it. He takes a good contact and feels like he's floating along, so I must admit I let him get on with it when we get to a safe stretch, but I don't let him trot downhill.

I used to have a horse who was quite upright through his shoulder and had a much shorter and choppier foreleg action, and I never trotted him on the road because it just felt like it was so jarring for his legs and feet.
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Yes definitely! I pull my mare up if she sets off on a downward-going trot - it feels horrible anyway. Most of the time I can feel if she's ready to trot, you can feel the engine revving and yes I agree with you, it does feel like you're floating along. Better to let her trot like that than make her pull herself along. I too had a gelding that had a fairly upright shoulder and that choppiness did go once he was engaged - took longer than mare who has better angles but principle the same.

Also, I think some horses trot downhill better than they walk and vice-versa - I have two related horses, same breed, same age and they are both so different in their gaits. I do believe that you have take each horse for it's merits and work to its advantage.
 
Tnavas said:
How long have they been out of work for? Generally the first week would be 30 mins walking increasing to 45 - 60 mins by the end of the first week, then week two includes short period of trot - 10 min walk - 5min trot again building up to an hour by the end of the week, Week three more extended periods of trot with decreasing amounts of walk between, by week 5 trotting one hour with short periods of canter, schooling, hill work.

Walking the first week really hardens up the legs
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They'll have come out of work in September and then start again in February - my OH generally does walk them for the first few days before starting the 5/10, then 5/15 etc. We never canter them, all the slow miles at home are in trot, and they do no more than 40 minutes a day (with 5 minutes walk at the start and 5 minutes at the end), 6 days a week. They do their pacing work at the racetrack once they've been in work around 8 weeks. The only exception is one mare we're racing again this summer, she does all her slow work at home free-legged pacing as that's the gait she seems to favour.

It's looking as though we'll be able to start using our track this week as it's drained well so hopefully no roadwork at all this year.
 
Tnavas said:
Why do people shoe their horses? Its to protect their precious feet from the wear and tear of their work load and the terrain they have to work on. My girl has been unshod all her life - yet when her work load increased prior to HOY she went footsore and I ended up having her shod.
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I'm not sure about that Tnavas... I think shoes were a necessity from a bad diet... you also said roadwork is good for the feet, and I agree with you on that.

My three horses work most days of the week in summer on tarmac and on rocky track and I need to trim even more often because of it.
 
tallyho! said:
I'm not sure about that Tnavas... I think shoes were a necessity from a bad diet... you also said roadwork is good for the feet, and I agree with you on that.
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Agreed. I can't be special in that I've taken loads of horses BF now without any issues. Currently taking a warmblood who has been shod all his working life and is now 18, BF and it's as smooth as silk so far. The right diet and sensible exercise. Incidentally this horse hates the farrier and has had to be sedated to be touched by one. So for his own good, I'll get him comfortably BF.

Yes you can *temporarily* "wear their feet out" by doing too much too soon, but the good news is their feet grow back so all you have to do is cut back the abrasive work until the feet get the grow faster message and or get some boots. All of mine had been 100% sound over all terrain covering 70-100km per week without boots or shoes. There's no reason why they couldn't do more than that if I had the time, their feet would just grow faster to compensate.
 
If the increase in workload is gradual the horses will grow horn quicker . My kids have hunted barefoot and my daughter is working through the ranks with a TB x ISH, barefoot and very happy with it . Yes he does plenty of roadwork , we dont have a school !!! We have 4 bare , none of them have worn their feet out so far . No boots in sight either although I would use them rather than shoes if possible
 
we have a horse who people would say what good feet he has.

when he first went on the road he was shod, but he started to lose his shoes, all of his shoes!, sometimes the day after shoeing one would `fall off` then the rest followed, sometimes i had to take them off because they were loose.

so i gave up because it was too much grief, he has been barefoot 4months and has never looked back is improving all the time, his feet are larger and returning to a good shape, last week he went on a two hour ride including rocky tracks, which i would have been careful with a shod horse, he had no shortness of stride at all.

so he must have excellent feet, is the common sense conclusion, what i want to know is why the shoes all fell off! i`m talking here about three different farriers, and i can say the relief at not seeing moaning farriers is also a lovely side effect of not shoeing, a happier horse and a peaceful life!
 
amandaco2 said:
I wonder if we wore mental shoes rather than trainers and then did a lot of running on the roads we would notice a difference in how our legs/joints feel?
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Never mind me joints, I think me teeth would fall out before any joints were affected!!
 
amandaco2 said:
perhaps those who feel it makes no difference to a horses legs should be keen to wear such metal shoes and do some running on roads..see how much damage they can inflict on that tarmac...
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From one who is currently waiting to have knees replaced, DON'T RUN, I did and wore all the cartilage away! Walking is just as good for you and doesn't wear your joints away
 
amandaco2 said:
I wonder if we wore mental shoes rather than trainers and then did a lot of running on the roads we would notice a difference in how our legs/joints feel?
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I dont know about metal shoes but I have done (in the dim distant past) a fair amount of running in DMS army boots . I found that it was no different from running barefoot ,impactwise ,but the weight of the boot was the killer during the "period of suspension".The sudden reverse of direction as the foot was lifted .The trick was to shorten your stride into a short stepping but faster pace. Down hill however was an entirely different matter ,and one my colleagues didnt figure out.If you launched yourself into the longest leap (hardly a stride ) you could cover twice the distance in a stride and slow down the rate you had to move your leg . This enabled me to move from somewhere at the back , overtake about 100 guys and then hang on back up what we called Cardiac hill. We went over to trainers later and to be honest I found no advantage . Up hill you run on your toes and any cushioning effect of the trainer is negligible,down hill , you hit hard on your heal and the trainer is again almost useless. It is purely the difference in weight of the trainer and boot during the period of suspension.
 
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