amandaco2
Well-Known Member
i trot my bf dressage horses on the roads a bit. mostly as I have no arena so in winter once its wet we can only hack out. they don't seem bothered by it, I do a gentle trot, not hammering along and mostly up hills.
Trotting on the road
- Thread starter debsflo
- Start date
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Poor wild horses... limping on the rocks. It's a wonder they evolved on the planet all on their own... any logical person would believe they landed here on an alien spaceship - "what other animal walks on its middle finger alone?" - quote from somewhere.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
And your point is?
Certainly am we have mountain ranges here in NZ - the helicopter was not in pursuit of them, merely filming them, when helicopters pursuit horses they move pretty fast - our Kaimanawa horses are rounded up by helicopter.
Anyone living in the Chilterns will know that flints are everywhere, very knobbly and also sharp - we had paths we hacked over several times a week and none of my shod horses limped!
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tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
And your point is?
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FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
So you're suggesting wild horses need to be rounded up and shod?! You don't half come out with some ridiculous statements but limping wild horses has to be the daftest yet.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I'm just wondering how it's possible not to limp when one moment one of your feet is on top of a boulder and the next another of your feet has to avoid it or step on it and the there's another and another boulder every six inches to a foot along the track?
Wild horses which limp are called breakfast.
Crosshill Pacers
Well-Known Member
When we bring our aged horses in now at the end of January/start of February if our track isn't dried out enough (or it's too frosty) then we'll start jogging them on the roads. We start with 5 minutes of walk and 10 minutes of trot for the first week, then up it to 5 minutes of walk and 15 minutes of trot in the second week. If we still can't get on our track, the third week is 5 walk/20 trot and so on and so forth until we're up to 5 walk/35 or 40 trot.
We keep to the back roads though as main roads are far too fast and busy.
We keep to the back roads though as main roads are far too fast and busy.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Here are some goats also "limping" yet managing to run down a cliff face. Hmmmm! One starts to wonder if "limping" to avoid slamming your shod foot down on any terrain is actually quite a good mechanism for protecting your limbs.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y_MS4N0G3CE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y_MS4N0G3CE
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Well my vet and physio must both be wrong then Popsdosh.
An abstract from this : https://www.researchgate.net/public...gital_flexor_tendon_forces_at_trot_and_canter
Also in the Equine Veterinary Journal : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2006.tb05583.x/abstract
One cause of overstrain injury to the superficial digital flexor tendon (SDFT) in horses is the force loaded on the SDFT during repeated running. Therefore, decreasing this force may reduce SDFT injury. It has been reported that strain on the SDFT decreases with a toe-wedge shoe. Uphill courses are used for training of racehorses, and the angle of hoof-sole to the horizon during uphill running is similar to that of the toe-wedge shoe. To determine the effects of uphill exercise on the force on the SDFT during trotting and cantering. Arthroscopically implantable force probes (AIFP) were implanted into the SDFT of the left or right forelimb of 7 Thoroughbred horses and AIFP output recorded during trotting and cantering on a treadmill inclined at slopes of 0, 3 or 8%, and then 0% again. Superficial digital flexor tendon force was calculated as a relative value, with the amplitude of AIFP output voltage at initial 0% slope equal to 100. Out of 14 sets of experiments, AIFP data were analysed successfully in 9 at the trot, in 3 at the canter in the trailing forelimb on a slope of 3 and 8%, and in 2 at the canter in the leading forelimb on a slope of 3%. Increasing the incline from 0-8% tended to decrease peak force in the SDFT at the trot, and in the trailing forelimb at the canter. However, force in the SDFT was unchanged in the leading forelimb at the canter on the 3% incline. The force in the SDFT trotting or cantering uphill is unchanged or lower than that loaded at the same speed on a flat surface. Because at similar speeds the workload for uphill exercise is greater than on the flat, uphill running increases exercise intensity without increasing force in the SDFT.
Hope this clears things up.
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the_nag
Member
We have always trotted on the roads no facilities and hacking is mostly roads so trot for up to 10 mins at a time in suitable spots never had any issues
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
I don't. I used to trot a bit on roads when I used to hack out as a child until my pony at the time came down with concussive laminitis. I still blame myself to this day. I only ever trot on the road now if I have to, like if a big lorry is coming and I want to get to a layby (my road is narrow) but even then I try to go on the verge. I very much limit trotting and cantering on hard summer ground as well. Mine is unshod, if she were shod Id be even more careful. IMO, the concussion caused by shoes is horrific.
beginner_rider
Member
Many studies done on this - a lot of people seem to be stuck in their ways of 'oh I used to do it all the time and my horse lived until 27 so how bad can it be' kind of thing, but no, it is not beneficial. Walking on the roads yes, trotting for more than a few minutes a day, no no no! The bone remodels in response to stress which is what causes the bone to become stronger but any more than a few more minutes a day, the osteocytes cannot remodel quick enough and it will cause permanent damage through micro-fractures.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Total fractures aren't permanent, they rejoin, so how can microfractures be permanent? Can you point us to this evidence, please?
ycbm
Overwhelmed
There is a school of thought that concussion laminitis is normally only found in feet where the laminae are already compromised. I wouldn't blame yourself or the trotting.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
That doesn't make any downhill comparisons though, just uphill versus flat. Popsdosh was talking about downhill?
windand rain
Well-Known Member
It depends on what you mean by trotting too, hammering along for hours is a bit different to trotting as part of a hack a controlled light in front trot is fine, and in my view better than on a surface where if it is even a little deep or frozen it is much harder on the legs. Lots of people dont have schools at their disposal and school at all paces while hacking. Trotting on the road is safer than on verges too unless you have gone out on foot prior to riding to check it out
ester
Not slacking multitasking
If I only do every other day can I do twice as much?
Of course having had no school, baked clay ground and no access to off road riding I would likely have ended up with a fat, laminitic pony had I never got out of walk.... It also wasn't long ago we had a thread of users aghast at riding on verges either!
As with most things equestrian, moderation and with all things taken into account.
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milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
yes, but it was in response to ACs post saying she trots uphill, never downhill, because of the reduced force on the tendons, so it was a rational response IMO
I have also been told, many moons ago, that it's less concussive to trot uphill than on the flat or downhill so that's what I do.... though I could not point to any scientific papers
I feel it myself when running - harder, yes, but not as jarring! (though I do accept my anatomy is quite different to my horses). Plus our roads are so skiddy, the only safe place to trot is up the hills
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Ah, on the phone it is a PITA to try and scroll back through it all!
I'm an uphiller too, when we are somewhere with hills. Otherwise it's just the motorway bridge.
I'm an uphiller too, when we are somewhere with hills
. Otherwise it's just the motorway bridge.Northern Hare
Well-Known Member
Apologies if this has already been raised on this thread, but I wonder if the horses' action also affects the amount of concussion caused by trotting on the road?
For example my horse is a TBxWB (25 yo) and has a quite a straight/pointy toe foreleg action, and on the odd occasion we do any roadwork, at every opportunity he wants to head off into trot and he seems to really enjoy it. He takes a good contact and feels like he's floating along, so I must admit I let him get on with it when we get to a safe stretch, but I don't let him trot downhill.
I used to have a horse who was quite upright through his shoulder and had a much shorter and choppier foreleg action, and I never trotted him on the road because it just felt like it was so jarring for his legs and feet.
For example my horse is a TBxWB (25 yo) and has a quite a straight/pointy toe foreleg action, and on the odd occasion we do any roadwork, at every opportunity he wants to head off into trot and he seems to really enjoy it. He takes a good contact and feels like he's floating along, so I must admit I let him get on with it when we get to a safe stretch, but I don't let him trot downhill.
I used to have a horse who was quite upright through his shoulder and had a much shorter and choppier foreleg action, and I never trotted him on the road because it just felt like it was so jarring for his legs and feet.
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
that's a lot quicker escalation of fitness work than ive ever done, are they totally unfit/ soft before starting the fitness programme?
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
I think the 'proof is in the pudding' - all horses are different and all horses react to different conditions. The bones are remodelled totally every so often (can't remember time frame) I've worked in the equine industry for several decades, mostly with liveries and hunters and 1hr trotting on the roads was the norm with no lameness and this involves many, many horses.
What I have noticed since I moved to NZ is that very few do much road work and there seems to be far more lameness issues - therefore I believe that road work is beneficial for strengthening legs. Walking is great but does nothing to increase respiratory fitness. Steady 'hound jog' certainly works both for horse and rider. Many of the people I have worked for have complimented me on the fitness of their hunters.
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
I trot on the road. I find a level surface much more forgiving than a knobbly, foot twisting baked soft surface, or a dragging deep surface.
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
It's perfect for a trotter. These horses swing along at trot, not belting along in training.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Errr,No! as an engineer, A sledge hammer handle is not a lever . iT is merely a way of swinging a heavy object so that the loads on the users body are kept to a minimum whilst giving the heavy object time to reach its maximum speed before impact. The kinetic energy of the shoe striking the road does not in any way harm the horse .IT HARMS THE ROAD, in exactly the way a sledge hammer breaks a rock. I am more concerned that the tissues of the foot are indirect contact with the steel and recieve the shockwaves from the impact. Leverage and load on tendons is a complete red herring.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
How long have they been out of work for? Generally the first week would be 30 mins walking increasing to 45 - 60 mins by the end of the first week, then week two includes short period of trot - 10 min walk - 5min trot again building up to an hour by the end of the week, Week three more extended periods of trot with decreasing amounts of walk between, by week 5 trotting one hour with short periods of canter, schooling, hill work.
Walking the first week really hardens up the legs
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I never mentioned leverage or load on tendons. I was referring, as you are, to conclusive forces on bones and joints. My information came from a Chartered Engineer. I googled it too, to check it out before I wrote it. Replace lever with pole if it makes you happier.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
There is greater dynamic force (momentum) up through the limb as the leg (lever) is swung with the greater mass on the end of it from the shoe. But (and I haven't done the calculations, I'm just thinking about how the average horse moves), I shouldn't think that much of that extra momentum is in play by the time the horse's foot contacts the ground, unless the horse has a very strange movement.
But you're right though - the guy in this study definitely is not an engineer. Not because of the increased mass aspect but because of the modulus of elasticity of steel in comparison to that of hoof. The nature and way that forces and waveforms are dissipated through steel are profoundly different to how they are dissipated through the natural hoof structures. That in combination with the pressure-point shape of the shoe will mean that there is a different concussive impact on the legs in a shod horse from a barefoot one.
To say that there is only a difference in the hoof but not in the concussive force through the leg is just daft - the two are connected through dynamic, force transmitting structures.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
You don't have to be an engineer to know that suggesting it "harms the road" and not the horse is complete bunkum.