Trotting tension...

[Queenbee]

if there is anyone out there who can help, my gods you would be my most favourite person!

The bottom line is that for the most part if I could do a stressage test on a hack I'd be fine, or rather ben would be fine, there are the odd tense moments on a hack but for the most part we are good and the trot is bloody great after a bit of a warm up. Cue school and it goes a bit tits up!

Our pattern in the school goes a bit like this, enter, walk on a long rein... Pretty good all told, when we have done that for a while I pick up the rein... Cue jog, every time ben jogs I nudge with the outside rein back to walk, it isn't until we have a nice fluid relaxed, consistent and rounded/collected walk that we entertain trot. When trot is initiated we have one of two paces to start, trotter x ostrich, or 15.3 horse imitating the stride of a 11.2 pony... He will either become uber excited and evasive or if I sit to the trot, poncy prancing my little pony. We can do serpentines, trotting poles, circling in and leg yields out of a 20 meter circle, and still he gets tense, it takes an absolute age to come close to sense! Cue canter and we maybe get one great strike into canter but then we know what is coming and we rush! Infact, recently walk to canter has been far easier than trot to canter in the school at home! When we come back to trot however, it is better, but still there is a tendency to get tense and over excited.

Our canter in the school can be a bit hit and miss, it is getting less wall of death on a 20 m circle on both reins, but utterly breakneck from the bottom to the top of the school when going large :/ of late I have been working on getting him nice and soft in canter and its sloooooowly coming but only on a circle. I'm not entirely sure that it hasn't helped with ben learning how to gallop on hacks (totally my fault!)

As I said, trot after canter is better, but if I try to sit to it his stride shortens hugely.

As much as his canter needs work, I think there are some great basics there, same with his walk (apart from the odd breaking into a jog)

But how to release tension from the trot? The problems are as follows:
Give the rein and he does a racing ostrich impression more often than not
Sit and encourage contact- he rides like an 11.2 pony
Rising trot in a contact, he will do for a bit then evade (ostrich style) on hacks this is far less of an issue.
Walk to trot and trot to walk (when in an outline) not at all too shabby
Trot to canter and canter to trot... Rushing into and falling out of most of the time.

Exercises we work on:
leg yielding
Turn on the forehand and haunches... Learnt this week
Lots of serpentines, changes of rein and circles
Transitions, walk to halt, halt - rein back, halt to trot, halt to walk, walk to canter (just started). All he is pretty good at.


Problem is, when he goes showjumping he is starting to be a bit "push button" his trot is always tense with excitement but his canter will go from any stride. When we get home he can't relax in the school - I really need him to as my aim is eventing, I need to be able to put together a good score on the test.

Does anyone have any helpful hints or tips for relaxing an over excited and over enthusiastic horse for either trotting work or trot to canter transitions in the school?

 

[*hic*]

You could start by taking him for a good hack and then going into the school to do some work. You could also consider stopping the jumping and getting the basics in place. If he can relax on the lunge you could try having someone standing in the school for him to work round.

Probably the best suggestion though would be to get a decent instructor who could see what's going on from the ground and would have plenty of solutions to call on.

 

[DabDab]

Lots of lateral work in walk before you start trotting, trying not to just walk a full loop of the school. Then there is no reason why you can't go on to canter after the walk warm-up if that relaxes him.

For walk to trot transitions - lateral movement in walk (eg leg yield to track), straighten up for a stride, trot on. Try not to concentrate too much on the transition because you'll inadvertently make it tense because your brain is (if that makes sense). If he's scooting out from under you when you take sitting trot there is probably some tension in you when you sit that is inadvertently giving him the signal to dash off into the never never - maybe some good eyes on the ground could help you spot it...?

Does he do a little rein back?

 

[blitznbobs]

When he jogs don't come back to walk trot on. Is he straight? First issue to change if he isn't. Once straight I play the 1 mm longer , 1 mm shorter game - or trot a bit bigger and then a bit smaller and do this using only your rising - ie rise slower then faster and change nothing else. He doesn't sound ready for much lateral work yet but you could try some long shallow loops to get him changing bends to start thinking about this idea. Most importantly when he does relax lots of praise... This creates a positive feedback which gobs a horse 1) an idea what you want and 2) in most horses I've met, makes them happy so they will relax...

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Lots of lateral work in walk before you start trotting, trying not to just walk a full loop of the school. Then there is no reason why you can't go on to canter after the walk warm-up if that relaxes him.

For walk to trot transitions - lateral movement in walk (eg leg yield to track), straighten up for a stride, trot on. Try not to concentrate too much on the transition because you'll inadvertently make it tense because your brain is (if that makes sense). If he's scooting out from under you when you take sitting trot there is probably some tension in you when you sit that is inadvertently giving him the signal to dash off into the never never - maybe some good eyes on the ground could help you spot it...?

Does he do a little rein back?

This. My lad trot os horrid before a canter so I warm up in walk, lots of circles, counter bend, leg yeilding etc then pop straight into canter then we do trot. So much better.

 

[Wheels]

It all sounds very confused to me. Some points in your post that stick out...

You walk on a long rein to start and then when you pick up the rein and the contact he starts to jog. When riding on a long rein you should still have contact, the change in horses position should come from a change in his balance which comes from a change in your position and balance, not necessarily a tightening of the rein.

What do you mean when you say nudge with the outside rein?

You ask for trot only when you have a collected walk? How about walking on a long rein but with a light contact still until your horse feels soft and then trotting with the same contact and in the same frame rather than shortening everything up all of the time?
When I say soft I mean in a relaxed frame, walking out well without needing to use your leg, not rushing, calm and relaxed ears etc. If you can't get that in walk then you won't get it in trot. Once you have relaxed and swinging forward movement you can think about the other stuff.

So at the moment you ask for trot and your horse sticks his head in the air and rushes or has a short and choppy stride, then you shorten your reins and sit with a stronger leg on an already hollow back. The only way this is going to end is with the horse being even more inverted, you are blocking his forward movement.

You already do lots of the regularly suggested exercises, I would say they only become useful if they can be done in a relaxed and rhythmical fashion so I would be going back a couple of steps.


I think you need a good instructor on the ground, obviously I am making my assumptions on what you have written and I've never met you or seen you ride but your horse sounds very tense, a tense horse is an unhappy one one. Maybe try an enlightened equitation or classical instructor to help you unravel how and where you are blocking him and how to resolve it

 

[kinnygirl1]

Hi QB. I had this problem with Stanley when I was bringing him back into work after his ulcer & sacroiliac problems. I was at my wits end as as soon as I got on he would just do a tense jog, so a bit different to what you describe with Ben, but I can identify. the answer was ground work with his saddle on before I ride. I got the help of a "think like a pony" instructor who showed me lots of groundwork exercises so that he was completely relaxed before I mounted, including work in trot. It has really worked and now I can hop on without the groundwork and ride without any tension, although I do still do the groundwork most days as its a great warm up.

 

[ester]

It all sounds very confused to me. Some points in your post that stick out...

You walk on a long rein to start and then when you pick up the rein and the contact he starts to jog. When riding on a long rein you should still have contact, the change in horses position should come from a change in his balance which comes from a change in your position and balance, not necessarily a tightening of the rein.

What do you mean when you say nudge with the outside rein?

You ask for trot only when you have a collected walk? How about walking on a long rein but with a light contact still until your horse feels soft and then trotting with the same contact and in the same frame rather than shortening everything up all of the time?
When I say soft I mean in a relaxed frame, walking out well without needing to use your leg, not rushing, calm and relaxed ears etc. If you can't get that in walk then you won't get it in trot. Once you have relaxed and swinging forward movement you can think about the other stuff.

So at the moment you ask for trot and your horse sticks his head in the air and rushes or has a short and choppy stride, then you shorten your reins and sit with a stronger leg on an already hollow back. The only way this is going to end is with the horse being even more inverted, you are blocking his forward movement.

You already do lots of the regularly suggested exercises, I would say they only become useful if they can be done in a relaxed and rhythmical fashion so I would be going back a couple of steps.


I think you need a good instructor on the ground, obviously I am making my assumptions on what you have written and I've never met you or seen you ride but your horse sounds very tense, a tense horse is an unhappy one one. Maybe try an enlightened equitation or classical instructor to help you unravel how and where you are blocking him and how to resolve it

this definitely, everything doable in a longer albeit still round frame to start with. How are you? are you relaxed or anticipating? How is he on the lunge? I think I'd err on having all of his normal transitions relaxed before doing direct ones but that is on the basis that there is nothing like a few walk to canters to make my tense if allowed

 

[chestnut cob]

Do you have lessons? That is the first place I'd start.
In the meantime, I have one who is far too clever for his own good and anticipates everything all of the time. He can be joggy and his default when I got him was head in the air, rushing with what I call a sewing machine trot. What worked (works) with mine is getting a really good walk first. Make sure the basics are instilled properly - walk/halt transitions. Get him listening. I honestly think you are trying to rush too many steps ahead. I had to do a lot of work slowing mine down so he couldn't get over excited and silly. Get a good walk. Mine likes to overreact to the leg and shoot off as an evasion. I'd say widen and lower your hands a little, get the walk moving properly. Lots of little circles, changes of rein. I like working on squares rather than circles to make sure I've got hold of the outside shoulder (he nips out through it as an evasion). Use your seat and core to slow down the walk - this is really key as he needs to understand this in walk so you can do it in trot. Do lots of transitions within the walk - you can halt or you can almost halt then walk on. Try to do it without using your reins so you don't get into a fight. When he does soften in walk, you can give him a little pat with your inside hand on his neck. Always make sure you reward him when he softens.

Making sure the walk is round and soft, ask for trot. If he shoots off into trot, you might find it's because you suddenly give a strong leg aid for trot and you get an explosion. That's what I was doing. Make sure you have hold of the outside shoulder and an outside contact, quiet leg on. I used to have to ask for mine to be a bit rounder just before trot, so he didn't shoot off. Don't go rising the second you've asked for trot, maybe try to sit for a couple of beats. Just do a few strides of trot, making sure not to hang on, use your seat to slow down, don't grip with thighs. If he's running away and you do loads of trot, it will only fall apart. A few strides then back to walk. If he shoots off and is rude, personally I'd bring him straight back to halt so he understands he can't just bog off.

I don't think you should be asking for trot from a collected walk, I think that's why it's an explosion. You need a good marching walk where he is really using himself - an EE instructor once told me that a good walk should feel like the horse is about to trot but not quite. If he jogs, I'd give him a squeeze with leg and trot. Jogging is just an evasion so make him realise it won't get him out of work.

I would go back a few steps as I don't think he's ready for all the lateral work - at his stage, I'd maybe be doing a couple of steps of rein back on the ground but not ridden, and I don't think I'd be doing walk to canter either. I think it risks making everything too exciting and creating explosions. I'd go back and make sure he understands half halts, seat/ weight aids to slow down, and is responsive to those in walk otherwise he will never respond in trot or canter. RE your canter transitions - check that you are sitting up straight and not throwing yourself at him when you ask. Same with canter to trot - stay strong in your core, slow the canter, keep it soft in front then ask for trot.

One thing I would say is think about your contact. For a period of time, you might need to ask him to be rounder than the ideal while trying to control with the seat. If he's going inverted most of the time, you will just lose your energy out of the front and end up in a pickle.

 

[Queenbee]

Hi guys, lots of useful tips and questions here, I will try to respond to them all.

You could start by taking him for a good hack and then going into the school to do some work. You could also consider stopping the jumping and getting the basics in place. If he can relax on the lunge you could try having someone standing in the school for him to work round.

Probably the best suggestion though would be to get a decent instructor who could see what's going on from the ground and would have plenty of solutions to call on.

Hacking wise, we dont alway go for a hack first but sometimes we do... it used to help when he was first going in the school as we would warm up on the hack and do some work in the school, thus shortening his time in the school for his brain, now however it makes little difference but we do still do it occasionally.


He has had decent breaks from jumping, it does not really help matters, he does chill a bit but reverts back as soon as jumping is back in his regime (even if the school is empty of poles)

Lunging is a no, he is seriously strong on the lunge and can get pretty dangerous with his exuberance, having said that, he has not been lunged in over a year due to his *whoopie* he may have changed, I will give this a go.

Lots of lateral work in walk before you start trotting, trying not to just walk a full loop of the school. Then there is no reason why you can't go on to canter after the walk warm-up if that relaxes him.

For walk to trot transitions - lateral movement in walk (eg leg yield to track), straighten up for a stride, trot on. Try not to concentrate too much on the transition because you'll inadvertently make it tense because your brain is (if that makes sense). If he's scooting out from under you when you take sitting trot there is probably some tension in you when you sit that is inadvertently giving him the signal to dash off into the never never - maybe some good eyes on the ground could help you spot it...?

Does he do a little rein back?

We do not just do large loops of the school, we work the school with serpentines, 20m circles and rein changes.

Our walk to trot transitions are actually quite brilliant, he really launches into it, makes a lovely shape, nice contact, steps right under, then a few strides in the battle starts and he starts to rush/evade and/or look for distractions... I think he finds schooling super boring which does not help :/ When we take sitting trot he does not scoot out (the very opposite) he doesnt rush and hollow there, but he trots so slowly and his strides become short, if I push him forward while sitting... he then becomes a bit more hollow.

Yep, he reins back well... has done for a long time. We used to do a lot of transitions on hacks from trot through to rein back, now we do reinback in the school.

This. My lad trot os horrid before a canter so I warm up in walk, lots of circles, counter bend, leg yeilding etc then pop straight into canter then we do trot. So much better.

DD/SC

I really like the idea of working in canter straight after walk... I think some part of it is that he knows after trot comes canter... after he has had a canter his trot does improve... so getting canter work out of the way before he becomes too excited should benefit his trot too... great suggestion thank you

It all sounds very confused to me. Some points in your post that stick out...

You walk on a long rein to start and then when you pick up the rein and the contact he starts to jog. When riding on a long rein you should still have contact, the change in horses position should come from a change in his balance which comes from a change in your position and balance, not necessarily a tightening of the rein.

What do you mean when you say nudge with the outside rein?

You ask for trot only when you have a collected walk? How about walking on a long rein but with a light contact still until your horse feels soft and then trotting with the same contact and in the same frame rather than shortening everything up all of the time?
When I say soft I mean in a relaxed frame, walking out well without needing to use your leg, not rushing, calm and relaxed ears etc. If you can't get that in walk then you won't get it in trot. Once you have relaxed and swinging forward movement you can think about the other stuff.

So at the moment you ask for trot and your horse sticks his head in the air and rushes or has a short and choppy stride, then you shorten your reins and sit with a stronger leg on an already hollow back. The only way this is going to end is with the horse being even more inverted, you are blocking his forward movement.

You already do lots of the regularly suggested exercises, I would say they only become useful if they can be done in a relaxed and rhythmical fashion so I would be going back a couple of steps.


I think you need a good instructor on the ground, obviously I am making my assumptions on what you have written and I've never met you or seen you ride but your horse sounds very tense, a tense horse is an unhappy one one. Maybe try an enlightened equitation or classical instructor to help you unravel how and where you are blocking him and how to resolve it

When I pick up the rein (yes he walks on a contact on a long rein) the position of his head obviously changes, as he comes up from long rein he gets joggy, he will walk very nicely, then break into jog, the outside rein controls the speed - inside rein controls the bend, hence as i feel him about to step into a jog i take a quick *feel* with the outside rein and ensure he doesnt break into jog... most of the time this works... sometimes he jogs 2-3 strides, we repeat whatever exercise we were doing (eg 20 m circle) until it is done without a jog and then move on.

The problem is that for the most part in walk he does feel soft and relaxed... he isnt like a time bomb... its the stride before the jog, during and the stride after the jog... the rest of the walk is brilliant.

We go from a nice relaxed walk into a trot that for the most part can get tense, although I am going to try cantering after walk and then doing trot... I really think this would help.

Silly sod has a pretty fine trot while hacking (Grr)

 

[Queenbee]

Do you have lessons? That is the first place I'd start.
In the meantime, I have one who is far too clever for his own good and anticipates everything all of the time. He can be joggy and his default when I got him was head in the air, rushing with what I call a sewing machine trot. What worked (works) with mine is getting a really good walk first. Make sure the basics are instilled properly - walk/halt transitions. Get him listening. I honestly think you are trying to rush too many steps ahead. I had to do a lot of work slowing mine down so he couldn't get over excited and silly. Get a good walk. Mine likes to overreact to the leg and shoot off as an evasion. I'd say widen and lower your hands a little, get the walk moving properly. Lots of little circles, changes of rein. I like working on squares rather than circles to make sure I've got hold of the outside shoulder (he nips out through it as an evasion). Use your seat and core to slow down the walk - this is really key as he needs to understand this in walk so you can do it in trot. Do lots of transitions within the walk - you can halt or you can almost halt then walk on. Try to do it without using your reins so you don't get into a fight. When he does soften in walk, you can give him a little pat with your inside hand on his neck. Always make sure you reward him when he softens.

Making sure the walk is round and soft, ask for trot. If he shoots off into trot, you might find it's because you suddenly give a strong leg aid for trot and you get an explosion. That's what I was doing. Make sure you have hold of the outside shoulder and an outside contact, quiet leg on. I used to have to ask for mine to be a bit rounder just before trot, so he didn't shoot off. Don't go rising the second you've asked for trot, maybe try to sit for a couple of beats. Just do a few strides of trot, making sure not to hang on, use your seat to slow down, don't grip with thighs. If he's running away and you do loads of trot, it will only fall apart. A few strides then back to walk. If he shoots off and is rude, personally I'd bring him straight back to halt so he understands he can't just bog off.

I don't think you should be asking for trot from a collected walk, I think that's why it's an explosion. You need a good marching walk where he is really using himself - an EE instructor once told me that a good walk should feel like the horse is about to trot but not quite. If he jogs, I'd give him a squeeze with leg and trot. Jogging is just an evasion so make him realise it won't get him out of work.

I would go back a few steps as I don't think he's ready for all the lateral work - at his stage, I'd maybe be doing a couple of steps of rein back on the ground but not ridden, and I don't think I'd be doing walk to canter either. I think it risks making everything too exciting and creating explosions. I'd go back and make sure he understands half halts, seat/ weight aids to slow down, and is responsive to those in walk otherwise he will never respond in trot or canter. RE your canter transitions - check that you are sitting up straight and not throwing yourself at him when you ask. Same with canter to trot - stay strong in your core, slow the canter, keep it soft in front then ask for trot.

One thing I would say is think about your contact. For a period of time, you might need to ask him to be rounder than the ideal while trying to control with the seat. If he's going inverted most of the time, you will just lose your energy out of the front and end up in a pickle.

As previously said, our walk is good, our transitions walk/halt and reinback are good... halt isnt always perfect but its pretty good. Our transitions into trot are great... its the trot a few strides in that is decidedly shakey. My hands are wide and low to start, ive always ridden like this and my instructor is now saying to bring them up a tad, I start wide and low... then when he is there... nice and soft I bring them up. Im not saying our trot is awful completely, he will soften back to me, but then he becomes an ostrich again, or goes into prancing pony looking lovely but with such a short slow stride when I sit to him.

Re my position when we ask for canter, I do think I have been letting him down.. I have had quite a forward position and also my god awful back (which Ive had sorted) has caused a lack of core strength and uneveness... this is much better now though. His canter is coming on really well at the moment, the trot to canter transition is as ive said not great (occasionally there are moments of loveliness but most of the time he tries to rush) However, he is starting to soften, and slow his pace, he doesnt handbrake the 20 m circle and he is slowing and maintaining a slower pace without trying to break back to trot - with his canter improving so much (and his canter is something I really want to improve for jumping too) I will continue with canter work, especially as it seems to blow some of his tension away.

Thank you all for your tips! One thing I have been reading up on, but would welcome anyones experiences of are the diamond exercise?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

No problem. My phyiso for the horses said there is no reason why you can't canter before trot. It's different muscles so you aren't warming them up in trot first and horses do it in the field so it's not a big issue

 

[Goldenstar]

Picking up on your lunging comments .
I simply would go back and train the basic work from the ground properly .
I do not tolerate horses who don't have these basics properly in place .
The horse must learn that humans are in control of the energy levels and generally rushing about is not tolerated .
Riding every time the horse like this rushes. I stop stand on a long rein ,pat then restart
I am way more determined than any horse and I don't give up until they understand.
Work wise the spiralling in on a circle and leg yield out, the turn about the forehand hand are a big help .
I use counter bending with caution until I am convinced the horse has the basics in place ,it can confuse .
I often teach the walk to canter at an early stage as well.
You can't train the horse without being about to influence it's neck .
Rhythm and relaxation and the two things you are trying to achieve at this stage .

 

[chestnut cob]

As previously said, our walk is good, our transitions walk/halt and reinback are good... halt isnt always perfect but its pretty good. Our transitions into trot are great... its the trot a few strides in that is decidedly shakey.

In that case I would build up the trot. If he can maintain say 5 good strides, only ride 5 then ask for walk. Build up gradually. Trot for 6, then for 7. If you go back to walk before he has chance to get upside and rush off, he doesn't get chance to use the wrong muscles. Plus all of those transitions will be a good exercise in themselves. Make sure you are keeping a strong core in the trot - if you don't maintain it and maybe lose your balance a little, that might be giving him the excuse he needs to tank off.

My hands are wide and low to start, ive always ridden like this and my instructor is now saying to bring them up a tad, I start wide and low... then when he is there... nice and soft I bring them up. Im not saying our trot is awful completely, he will soften back to me, but then he becomes an ostrich again, or goes into prancing pony looking lovely but with such a short slow stride when I sit to him.

I think it's a case of learning to catch him before he goes into ostrich mode, as well as loads of transitions so he doesn't get chance to do it. It sounds like he's ignoring you a bit as an evasion. If you feel him start to get wooden, lower your hands again. If he isn't used to going correctly it won't happen over night, you'll need to build it up.

Re my position when we ask for canter, I do think I have been letting him down.. I have had quite a forward position and also my god awful back (which Ive had sorted) has caused a lack of core strength and uneveness... this is much better now though. His canter is coming on really well at the moment, the trot to canter transition is as ive said not great (occasionally there are moments of loveliness but most of the time he tries to rush) However, he is starting to soften, and slow his pace, he doesnt handbrake the 20 m circle and he is slowing and maintaining a slower pace without trying to break back to trot - with his canter improving so much (and his canter is something I really want to improve for jumping too) I will continue with canter work, especially as it seems to blow some of his tension away.

TBH I would say you need to take back a bit of control (similar vein to GS' post below). If he rushes off in canter, stop him. Make sure he understands half halts and slowing with the seat (is this established in W & T?) so that when he rushes, you can get control back. And as GS says (and I intimated in my previous reply), you need to be able to influence the neck to keep him soft.

Thank you all for your tips! One thing I have been reading up on, but would welcome anyones experiences of are the diamond exercise?

Yes - start in walk, ride a square or diamond shape instead of a circle, so using 90deg angles. It's great for making sure they are listening to your outside aids and not drifting or leaning on outside shoulder. Once your walk squares/ diamonds are good, try it in trot and canter. It's a great exercise. After squares, make the shape into a 50p piece, and then eventually a circle.

 

[D66]

Going in a different direction to other posts. Have you considered your choice of bit and bridle? If your horse is avoiding contact it could be issues with the bit or bridle. I have very recently made progress with a very similar problem by changing to a micklem bridle and am currently experimenting with bits offering reduced tongue pressure.

 

[DabDab]

Hi guys, lots of useful tips and questions here, I will try to respond to them all.



Hacking wise, we dont alway go for a hack first but sometimes we do... it used to help when he was first going in the school as we would warm up on the hack and do some work in the school, thus shortening his time in the school for his brain, now however it makes little difference but we do still do it occasionally.


He has had decent breaks from jumping, it does not really help matters, he does chill a bit but reverts back as soon as jumping is back in his regime (even if the school is empty of poles)

Lunging is a no, he is seriously strong on the lunge and can get pretty dangerous with his exuberance, having said that, he has not been lunged in over a year due to his *whoopie* he may have changed, I will give this a go.



We do not just do large loops of the school, we work the school with serpentines, 20m circles and rein changes.

Our walk to trot transitions are actually quite brilliant, he really launches into it, makes a lovely shape, nice contact, steps right under, then a few strides in the battle starts and he starts to rush/evade and/or look for distractions... I think he finds schooling super boring which does not help :/ When we take sitting trot he does not scoot out (the very opposite) he doesnt rush and hollow there, but he trots so slowly and his strides become short, if I push him forward while sitting... he then becomes a bit more hollow.

Yep, he reins back well... has done for a long time. We used to do a lot of transitions on hacks from trot through to rein back, now we do reinback in the school.




DD/SC

I really like the idea of working in canter straight after walk... I think some part of it is that he knows after trot comes canter... after he has had a canter his trot does improve... so getting canter work out of the way before he becomes too excited should benefit his trot too... great suggestion thank you




When I pick up the rein (yes he walks on a contact on a long rein) the position of his head obviously changes, as he comes up from long rein he gets joggy, he will walk very nicely, then break into jog, the outside rein controls the speed - inside rein controls the bend, hence as i feel him about to step into a jog i take a quick *feel* with the outside rein and ensure he doesnt break into jog... most of the time this works... sometimes he jogs 2-3 strides, we repeat whatever exercise we were doing (eg 20 m circle) until it is done without a jog and then move on.

The problem is that for the most part in walk he does feel soft and relaxed... he isnt like a time bomb... its the stride before the jog, during and the stride after the jog... the rest of the walk is brilliant.

We go from a nice relaxed walk into a trot that for the most part can get tense, although I am going to try cantering after walk and then doing trot... I really think this would help.

Silly sod has a pretty fine trot while hacking (Grr)

Great, glad you think canter after walk warm-up will help with him.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you just went round the edge of the school - just to say that some horses lose concentration cantering a 20m circle, let alone walking one, particularly when they physically don't find it super easy yet. That's often the reason why people choose to skip right over*prelim tests at shows...

Sorry also for misreading your description of the 11h pony in sitting trot mode - however, scooting off and dying under you when you take sitting trot are actually generally just different symptoms of the same issue, so there is probably still some tension there.

For the record I don't think it is ever to early to learn lateral work in walk - you can teach it to them before you even get on their back. It may not fit in with your current work plan for any particular horse, but that doesn't mean they're not capable if learning from it.

 

[Queenbee]

In that case I would build up the trot. If he can maintain say 5 good strides, only ride 5 then ask for walk. Build up gradually. Trot for 6, then for 7. If you go back to walk before he has chance to get upside and rush off, he doesn't get chance to use the wrong muscles. Plus all of those transitions will be a good exercise in themselves. Make sure you are keeping a strong core in the trot - if you don't maintain it and maybe lose your balance a little, that might be giving him the excuse he needs to tank off.



I think it's a case of learning to catch him before he goes into ostrich mode, as well as loads of transitions so he doesn't get chance to do it. It sounds like he's ignoring you a bit as an evasion. If you feel him start to get wooden, lower your hands again. If he isn't used to going correctly it won't happen over night, you'll need to build it up.



TBH I would say you need to take back a bit of control (similar vein to GS' post below). If he rushes off in canter, stop him. Make sure he understands half halts and slowing with the seat (is this established in W & T?) so that when he rushes, you can get control back. And as GS says (and I intimated in my previous reply), you need to be able to influence the neck to keep him soft.



Yes - start in walk, ride a square or diamond shape instead of a circle, so using 90deg angles. It's great for making sure they are listening to your outside aids and not drifting or leaning on outside shoulder. Once your walk squares/ diamonds are good, try it in trot and canter. It's a great exercise. After squares, make the shape into a 50p piece, and then eventually a circle.

I think you are right about building it up and transitions... its not at all that he can not maintain the trot, hacking we can sustain a wonderful trot for as long as I ask it of him, its that he wont maintain it in the school due to his tension, yet physically we are both able to. What you say re building up stride by stride, is a good point, I do remember doing a lot of that back in the early days of our hacking.

He doesnt rush off in canter, he is a baby and didn't know how to control his pace, he would bank on circles, now he is really starting to be able to sustain a controlled steady and slower pace - this wasn't rushing to evade, it was just him being a very green horse. Now things are getting better, his canter is maturing nicely in the school, I have no issues with how this is going.

Re: the diamond exercise - thank you we will try that.

 

[Queenbee]

Picking up on your lunging comments .
I simply would go back and train the basic work from the ground properly .
I do not tolerate horses who don't have these basics properly in place .
The horse must learn that humans are in control of the energy levels and generally rushing about is not tolerated .
Riding every time the horse like this rushes. I stop stand on a long rein ,pat then restart
I am way more determined than any horse and I don't give up until they understand.
Work wise the spiralling in on a circle and leg yield out, the turn about the forehand hand are a big help .
I use counter bending with caution until I am convinced the horse has the basics in place ,it can confuse .
I often teach the walk to canter at an early stage as well.
You can't train the horse without being about to influence it's neck .
Rhythm and relaxation and the two things you are trying to achieve at this stage .

Sorry, re the lunging on this i absolutely do not agree... ben will not be lunging, Its not something im going to faf around doing when he can be very strong and dangerous. Sometimes you have to choose which fights you pick and which you dont.

Ben is learning that I am in control of the pace, this is why for example, when he goes to jog he is instantly corrected and made to repeat whatever exercise he is doing until he does it without misbehaving.

He is very responsive, you can influence his neck, he will respond to pressure, he will work in a rhythmic and relaxed pace... out on hacks * inserts head in hands* Spiralling in and leg yielding out.... hes really quite good at or rather was... these last couple of weeks hes just got more and more angry/defiant in the school... its very frustrating, on the one hand we are making leaps and bounds in things like our canter and also his walk is developing nicely, but the trot... urgh soooooo frustrating

 

[Queenbee]

Going in a different direction to other posts. Have you considered your choice of bit and bridle? If your horse is avoiding contact it could be issues with the bit or bridle. I have very recently made progress with a very similar problem by changing to a micklem bridle and am currently experimenting with bits offering reduced tongue pressure.

I am very happy with his bit/bridle choice, having gone to hell and back with bitting him due to a retained wolf tooth shard, I am positive that the bit he is in is one he is very happy and comfortable with, in addition, he has no problems with evasion on hacks (unless we are in the jump woods). As for the rest of his tack (saddle etc, very happy with the fit of that too, mouth and back all in fine order too, he is due a massage on monday but from the feel of ben when he is going well, i expect him to say there is very little work needed.

 

[Queenbee]

Great, glad you think canter after walk warm-up will help with him.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you just went round the edge of the school - just to say that some horses lose concentration cantering a 20m circle, let alone walking one, particularly when they physically don't find it super easy yet. That's often the reason why people choose to skip right over*prelim tests at shows...

Sorry also for misreading your description of the 11h pony in sitting trot mode - however, scooting off and dying under you when you take sitting trot are actually generally just different symptoms of the same issue, so there is probably still some tension there.

For the record I don't think it is ever to early to learn lateral work in walk - you can teach it to them before you even get on their back. It may not fit in with your current work plan for any particular horse, but that doesn't mean they're not capable if learning from it.

Dont worry, I didnt take any offence, just wanted to clarify what we do, the more information I can give the more it informs people and they can help me.

Yes, there is definitely tension in sitting trot, rising trot is a rushing tension, sitting trot contained tension... neither is good :/

We do quite a bit of spiralling in and LY out as another poster described, he is pretty good at this and we have started to incorporate it into our circle work in canter too. Its one of the reasons I started looking at the diamond exercise - for ben you need to present him with tasks he can excel at and praise him- LOTS! We also do leg yielding from right to left out hacking on the roads. I want to start to incorporate shoulder in but Im not sure he is relaxed enough to try this yet, problem is that if I ask hi to do something and he doesnt get it quickly enough he will tense which is obviously counter productive, I like the idea of teaching from the ground... he doesnt lunge but he does long line well.. hmmm... could teach SI from that.

Canter straight from walk would be great for him... Im so excited to try this new routine in the school

 

[Goldenstar]

It should not be frustrating , it's training , it's what horses do ,you have to train them, if a horse that has not learnt the basic of rhythm and calmness before it's backed will have a harder job understanding what required.
That's why I am alarmed he's too strong and dangerous to lunge .
This is a vital basic that's missing, faffing about is what gets the basics in place so you don't end up riding horse that thinks putting it's head up and rushing about is acceptable .
I would be back to basics and fixing it .
I expect all my horse no matter what age they arrive here to lunge and long rein obediently .
I train until I get what I need because I know gaps just make life harder for me and more importantly the horse .
But I am little confused is he a horse who has learnt a tension issue in the school is the nub of the issue .

 

[Queenbee]

It should not be frustrating , it's training , it's what horses do ,you have to train them, if a horse that has not learnt the basic of rhythm and calmness before it's backed will have a harder job understanding what required.
That's why I am alarmed he's too strong and dangerous to lunge .
This is a vital basic that's missing, faffing about is what gets the basics in place so you don't end up riding horse that thinks putting it's head up and rushing about is acceptable .
I would be back to basics and fixing it .
I expect all my horse no matter what age they arrive here to lunge and long rein obediently .
I train until I get what I need because I know gaps just make life harder for me and more importantly the horse .
But I am little confused is he a horse who has learnt a tension issue in the school is the nub of the issue .

He has never liked being lunged, horses are all different, he did a lot of long lining and yes, did lunge with two reins, but one rein and he is strong and yes he is dangerous. I find you a little bit insulting in your post to be honest. If I say it is frustrating the it is, I am the one experiencing it not you. you do not have to tell e what horses do, or that they need to be trained. Ben was backed by one of the best professionals in the county, very well respected and very experienced, I know her, have used her before seen the horses she has produced, If she was of the same mind regarding lunging im more than happy with my decision not to lunge him. Dont get me wrong, I can and have got him very well behaved on the lunge, but the method to this is not something I want to be utilising on my horse regularly and for a horse that gets bored easily well, lunging is a stupid choice of exercise for such a horse. I repeat, he is fine to long line.

Ben has never been the most focused of horses in the school, he became progressively resistant, more so on one rein than the other, eventually the cause was identified as a shard of wolf tooth that was working its way to the surface, this issue is now resolved as are any other physiological issues that were caused as a result of the shard. He is not always resistant, but it does take an age to work him in, he is tense, resistant and looking for diversions for a long time before he starts to focus properly. Hacking to warm up doesn't necessarily help, he gets tense when he then goes in the school - its the school that triggers it you then have to spend a long time relieving that tension. I think, to try and answer your question... he is a horse who gets tense and looks for diversions as he finds schooling both a chore and boring and in the past has obviously found it uncomfortable due to his wolf tooth shard.

 

[BayLady]

I just have one question - what are you, as a rider, doing differently in the school to out hacking? There must be something for there to be such a huge difference in how he goes. It might be a tiny thing that you're not even aware of.

As someone who also has a horse who has had wolf tooth issues (I ride bitless as a result), I would think that any psychological issues he has remaining from that would be present whether you were hacking or schooling. Unless the feel he's getting down the rein is different somehow.

 

[JFTDWS]

Does he take the contact down or forwards in trot?

 

[Queenbee]

I just have one question - what are you, as a rider, doing differently in the school to out hacking? There must be something for there to be such a huge difference in how he goes. It might be a tiny thing that you're not even aware of.

As someone who also has a horse who has had wolf tooth issues (I ride bitless as a result), I would think that any psychological issues he has remaining from that would be present whether you were hacking or schooling. Unless the feel he's getting down the rein is different somehow.

When he had his wolf tooth issue he was more difficult on hacks too, he would drift to one side avoiding contact, muscle build up was uneven, he couldnt bend on one rein which did make schooling a particular issue, infact he would at times twist outwards! His problem side is also my weak side, which due to his issues got weaker and weaker... supporting him with my leg was difficult. As i say, during the WT saga we did have some issues hacking but no, no where near as many as in the school. I put this down to the work in the school being far more taxing rather than riding straight lines on hacks... hence it would have been far more uncomfortable for him in the school thank hacking. On the other hand, if we are jumping in the school he is still doing an imitation of fizzy pop, infact he is probably worse to start, but calms quicker becomes focused faster because of the jumps. But I dont feel that I can or should spend my life jumping my horse in order that I can school him *head in hands!*

As a rider, what am i doing wrong? I have no idea, I have asked myself the same and I cant put my finger on it, I think perhaps I do get tenser in the school when just doing flatwork, I also tend to over think things sometimes, get worked up over a trot to canter transition perhaps because I know it is an issue... I feel that if I could blindfold myself, take away my stirrups and just *feel* my way around a schooling session it would be a million times better. :/

 

[Queenbee]

Does he take the contact down or forwards in trot?

Walk (hacking and schooling) trot (hacking) he will reach forward into the contact, trot in the school, we have to do a lot of work before he will reach forward into a contact,(probably the last 10 mins of a 45 min lesson. if I sit to the trot he will behave like a concertina and crumple up into a false outline, he doesnt get hollow in sitting trot in the school but everything shortens, neck, stride etc.

 

[JFTDWS]

Walk (hacking and schooling) trot (hacking) he will reach forward into the contact, trot in the school, we have to do a lot of work before he will reach forward into a contact,(probably the last 10 mins of a 45 min lesson. if I sit to the trot he will behave like a concertina and crumple up into a false outline, he doesnt get hollow in sitting trot in the school but everything shortens, neck, stride etc.

In which case I wouldn't sit - at all. Dae's very keen on shortening through his neck (not so much through his back, but the principle is largely the same) and my intention with him is always to be pushing him forwards and out (and down, but I don't like to say that as it sounds like I'm driving him onto the forehand!). He's very in front of the leg, so much of his work is getting him to accept it and reach into the contact - which means me using my legs more than I feel I ought to, and my hands less than is instinctive. If you can get control over his shoulders, you should be able to use your inside leg to work him forward into the contact. I wouldn't be inclined to drop or widen my hands - I raise mine slightly, together, to ensure he takes the contact from me, rather than me forcing it upon him.

I actually aim to get photos which look less dressagey with Daemon - because if he's forward and out into my hand (not nose pokey, but into a contact in a longer frame) - he's working better through his hind end and back than if I let him curl up under me and look pretty.

 

[ester]

Don't forget lungeing is quite good for them physically as he has to be given the opportunity to develop the correct muscles before he can do anything easily and properly. Nothing wrong with using two lines. I also wouldn't sit trot as it sounds like it is just producing a false slowness. He is only a baby still and not long back from a break and things always take time and blips occur along the way. Heck I'm still working on improving frank and he is 22 this year

 

[ester]

Frank can be the same with trying to get him a bit nose pokey Jftd - I like the horse as the wooden bit of a bow

 

[JFTDWS]

Frank can be the same with trying to get him a bit nose pokey Jftd - I like the horse as the wooden bit of a bow

My biomech-y instructor is always telling me to get both of mine's necks to fall away in front of me more. With Fergus it frees up his hind leg more and generates a more subtle, floaty balance, but with Dae, it's like riding a different horse. Far less demented sewing machine, far more self propelling speed boat...