Trying to get a horse more forward going in the school?

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Ellietotz

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Hi!
Long story short, I am a happy hacker with my 16.2hh 16yo Welsh D but really would love to school him and jump him. He is brilliant out in the forest and will jump anything but the moment we go in the school, he is so lazy, I just can't get him to do anything and it becomes more effort than it's worth and it's not even enjoyable. I got him about 2 years a go and we have only hacked since. I schooled him twice, or tried anyway. Can get him to trot and canter if I put every ounce of effort that I can possibly muster in but jumping is just a no go. Hacking is getting pretty boring now and originally I got him as a happy hacker which is all he ever did before too. He's also prone to laminitis so there's no option to give him anything sugary to give him energy.

Anything I can do or is he just lazy? I thought Welsh's are meant to be really choppy and forward but he acts like a lazy fat chunky cob to school and I just haven't seen the point to do it since. He isn't unfit, could be fitter but certainly not overweight. Being a laminitic, he can't be! I just want to have more choice than riding out in the woods now!

Thanks :)
 
have you had an instructor ride him and see how he goes? He could just be taking the p*ss as he knows you won't make him. How tough are you with him?

Otherwise would he be finding the arena too deep or anything? If he's not used to sand arenas the deeper ones can be really tough going on them.
 
I'm probably not as tough as I could be, after about 10 minutes of kicking, it gets tiresome and its not fun. I don't see the point in schooling if it's going to be hard work, I just want to do it to play around and do some jumping but I don't know how to make him enjoy it like he does when hes out. The school is grass so easy to move on. Maybe I'm just wanting something that's not possible! I don't want it to be hard work and a chore for him, I want it to be fun!
 
Do you ride him differently in the school? many people will hack about on a long rein and wonder why the horse is confused when it gets taken into the school, the reins are suddenly shortened up and the rider changes what they ask and expect, I am not saying it is always the case but it can be the root cause of some schooling issues, you can school out hacking which will help keep your interest as well as get him listening to you, using himself better and it should help when you do go in the school, although when you do try not to expect too much of a big 16 year old who has never been worked in a school, it may be difficult for him, he may be feeling a bit stiff so keep to short sessions that end on a good note, certainly no cantering or jumping until he can comfortably walk and trot in a confident balanced way, laziness is often due to discomfort or lack of understanding so work with him to improve the basics.
 
Have you tried doing your schooling on a hack? Hacking shouldn't mean slopping along aimlessly. You could try practising transitions, starting with say, 10 steps walk, 10 steps trot, repeat and repeat until your transitions are crisp. This will probably make your horse more forward, so that will give you something to build on. You could take him in the school, for just one circuit of transitions at the end of your hack.
 
I've only ridden him in the school twice in the last two years. I could work harder out hacking too but I'm a bit of a softy when it comes to making him work as I want him to enjoy it going out too. We can do a lovely collected canter when out hacking too and he's getting much better going back into trot rather than falling into it. But I still think, if he's not the kind of horse to thrive off working in the school and jumping, I can't do much, can I?
 
I know a pony at my yard is the same, perfect out hacking but in the school the rider has to work to get him to do anything, but he is only 6. If he isn't normally ridden in the school could being slow be due to feeling insecure about the situation and him feeling out of his depth?

If this isn't the case you have to either toughen up on him and get on with it in the arena or just stick to hacking. Imo the worst thing to do when attempting to ride him in the arena is to give up, then if he's just testing you then he's wining ;) Whats stopping you jumping in the arena? Maybe even some poles out might give him a bit more life rather than going around in a boring scene where very little changes.
 
I have tried to jump him but we will trot up to it and he just stops, not suddenly, he just gets so slow on the last couple of steps and he stops there, won't even step over it! I can feel him slowing and whips or leg don't work at all. Even if I canter him up to it, he trots and stops. It's such a pain!
 
Will he jump over a log or similar on a hack?
I wonder if his previous experience of working in a school, is that it is boringly hard work.
I reiterate that you do not need to be in an arena to school your horse. It sounds as if you pretty much let him do as he wants on your hacks, so he must wonder what on earth is boing on when you take him in the school and expect him to take notice of you. There is no reason why he wouldn't enjoy doing some schooling on a hack, that way the schooling is incidental to the journey along the route but the horse is becoming more responsive to the rider's aids. If you start with the transitions I suggested above, I can almost guarantee that he will become more responsive. Remember the horse always responds to the rider, do if you don't put the effort in, neither will he.
 
How do other horses go for you? It used to be well known that there were people with "electric bottoms" for whom every horse would be silly, and those who could settle horses and relax them - I am one of those. And over the years it has become clear that it is my style of riding that is responsible - relaxed to the point of almost slumping in the saddle. I have tried sitting taller and straighter, and it does help my laid back WBx get more active.
And don't keep kicking - all that does is train him to ignore your leg. If he is getting lazier and lazier, move him up a pace for a while. Do whatever it takes and do several strides of the next pace, so that far from saving him energy, it costs him.
And (lol) is he dragging himself around on the forehand? If you can find a suitable place such as a stubble field, do some circles, serpentines, and anywhere you can do transitions up and down the paces. That will not only sharpen him up but will also get his hind legs working better, what one classical trainer recently called "kicking with his hinds" which is a good description of the activity you are after.
Good luck
 
I have exactly this problem! He's never going to be fond of the school BUT i have found briefly what works is doig transitions but sharp ones - so start with walk trot walk then halt - trot...walk - canter. Also my boy knew when i was tired (as he does when we go near the gate he tries to slow down, i end up flapping a bit to keep him going then try and sit still so he knows we will be going past it!) I have to push throuhg it but it isn't easy. That said I could not cope with a v forrward going horse so I'll stick with my lazy coblet!
 
They are so clever and annoying aren't they! He must know that I can't be bothered to keep my leg on either as it's just tiring! I think the sharp transitions could work as he might get fizzy which isn't a bad thing! Still don't know about getting a jump out of him though!
 
There's no reason why he shouldn't jump though, he is just taking the p*ss. If physically he is fine, then there's no reason he shouldn't do it.

If he was mine i'd work on transitioning him from a happy hacker mindset to a working mindset.

So as the others said don't just let him plod along on the hacks, start schooling him. There's some good books available on how to school on hacks. Get him into a working mindset and the gradually increase it so his attention span grows.

Then start in the school in short doses at first, but when you ask him for a transition mean it. If a horse is physically fine and understands the aids correctly, then if it's lazy i'd ask gently first, then stronger a second time and then for the third time they would get a good whack. I wouldn't care if they shoot forward, i'd let them go and reward them for reacting and moving forward. It only takes a few times and then they start to listen and respond to the softer aid as they know you mean business if they ignore it. Ask, order and then demand. There's nothing worse than seeing someone just low level nag a horse around, it just annoys both horse and rider and does no good.

With clever horses they can find the transition from hacking (fun, i can do my own thing) to arena work (boring, why bother) difficult. Can you make the arena a bit more of a fun place for him. What would he be like if you loose schooled him over small jumps following a horse who likes jumping. That would get him up a gear and he might start enjoying the jumping.

The main issue is to stop the flapping and nagging with him. It's the equivalent of someone whinging at you, you just tune it out and it's annoying. Ask and mean it and he will start to respect you more. Once you click with that you will be flying.
 
Thank you so much. By doing this, will he eventually enjoy it? I mean, if he does start working properly and not being lazy, that's great but will he enjoy it too? I just don't want him to be miserable for my own sake! I've been told it doesn't come natural to him by the last owner, can this be true? I guess this means I need to stop riding on the buckle out on a hack! It's going to take long to get him out of being used to that, my fault. I don't want to be a happy hack anymore!
 
Megmoo said:
Thank you so much. By doing this, will he eventually enjoy it? I mean, if he does start working properly and not being lazy, that's great but will he enjoy it too? I just don't want him to be miserable for my own sake! I've been told it doesn't come natural to him by the last owner, can this be true? I guess this means I need to stop riding on the buckle out on a hack! It's going to take long to get him out of being used to that, my fault. I don't want to be a happy hack anymore!
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I suspect he will be happier - better balanced horses are much more able to cope with life and probably have fewer lameness/injury problems. Sluggish horses can be depressed in the same way people who do very little get lazier and lazier and more and more depressed.
 
Going to give him a go schooling tonight but just had a thought, he's outright ignored the stick before. What do I do then if that doesn't work either?
 
Will he be lead in the school? if he is as difficult as you say it might be easier to start in-hand. take him in,do as big a circuit as poss, treat, and retreat. i.e. go out for a hack. Let him get the idea that it won't be hard work.
There are alternative ways of encouraging forward movement other than beating! i'll do a bit of research. :)
 
You could try something like a wip *** rope, or you could even use your reins if they are long enough to be able to hold at the correct length in one hand and flap from one side to the other over the horse's neck with the other hand. You must be prepared though to let the horse keep moving forward at whatever faster pace you get for a few strides so your horse learns that going faster is the correct response.
 
Megmoo said:
Going to give him a go schooling tonight but just had a thought, he's outright ignored the stick before. What do I do then if that doesn't work either?
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Think outside the box - what can you do to get him going forward? Wipwop? (lead rope, swished to either side of your seat). Voice (loud and strident) or - what works for mine, if you have a schooling whip, is "tickle" him on top of his quarters behind the saddle, it is the kind of thing he'd rather not stick around for.
Basically you have to have him relearn what your legs mean - nudge him once, then use your alternative so he becomes conditioned to think that follows the nudge, and he's rather not hang around for it. AND your intent is important - you HAVE to mean it, be determined and try and think of it as you need to escape something awful which is coming up behind you :)
 
Stay away from the arena until you have sharpened him up on your hacks, it sounds as if you both need to get fitter before you expect him to do 'schooling', which at your stage is just another word for riding correctly.
 
Might have to try the schooling whip idea. He's pretty laid back, I could put up an umbrella behind him and he won't care or use a carrier bag tied to the end of a stick and he just won't flinch! Going to try the sharp stop/starting and poles and lots of treats when he's been good! 20 minutes until I finish work, I'm so impatient. He's voice trained mainly so that may not help his immunity to squeeze, kick and stick! He can get very fizzy and energetic out hacking, can get him doing the most beautiful collected canter. He is so comfy! He's certainly capable, I just need to get that out of him in the school!
 
I don't want to get further than a squeeze, I feel bad just kicking him, I certainly wouldn't like to be kicked in the ribs. When you say leading him, do you recommend trotting him around in hand etc and treating him?
 
The reins aren't long enough, have tried before. Not only that but you could be flapping around all over him and he doesn't care. He is capable though. He loves a good gallop and jumping out in the woods, I never have to ask him to go. I think today's first schooling session is going to be a matter of learning what gets him going, what pressure to have on the bit etc etc so not expecting to go in there and have him jumping. I'm looking forward to it. Might start a diary...
 
He's very good on hacks and we do plenty of practicing when out. We have got our collected and extended canters going so nicely now, he's so comfortable, it just feels like we float. I don't let him refuse jumps when we are out on the rare occasions when he would rather go round, we turn around and do it again. He can get super energetic and fizzy which is really fun but I need to learn what it takes to get him to do that in the school.
 
Megmoo said:
He's very good on hacks and we do plenty of practicing when out. We have got our collected and extended canters going so nicely now, he's so comfortable, it just feels like we float. I don't let him refuse jumps when we are out on the rare occasions when he would rather go round, we turn around and do it again. He can get super energetic and fizzy which is really fun but I need to learn what it takes to get him to do that in the school.
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So what are you planning to achieve by taking him in the school? I agree that he should do as he is asked wherever you are but schooling doesn't mean riding in an arena, it means riding correctly, no matter where you are. Remember the horse going correctly starts with thecrider riding correctly. Do you have an instructor? If not it would be a good idea to find one locally.
 
Get a good instructor to come and help you. Some knowledgeable eyes on the ground will help you get to the bottom of the issue much quicker than a bunch of strangers on the Internet who have never seen your horse or you. It could be horse fitness, rider effectiviteness, a saddle issue, a minor veterinary issue, a training or communication issue or any number of things.
 
A new update:

I took him in the school last night and it went very well. There are a few teething problems but he is a 16 year old who has never schooled since he was broken in...

A few things we learnt were; he struggles cantering on the right leg but once he gets the gist of it, he's fine. He wasn't actually lazy at all. I must have caught him on a few bad days when I last tried. He was very responsive to voice, just a click and a small squeeze and he would trot. At the start of the session, getting him into canter was difficult. I think that was partly my fault as I'm so used to doing it when we are out and about, it's different when we are in the school where I have to properly asking him, I don't think he understood what I wanted so I take all the blame on that. It didn't help that he was putting his head right up so the reins became really loose when I was trying to get him to go, he also had his ears back and threw in a few starting bucks but only when going into canter. His ears were forwards the rest of the time. In the end though, I didn't even have to squeeze/kick to get him into canter on a corner, I just sat and asked him to canter out loud and he went.

We had three trotting poles down and a small jump. This is where I became confused and it's probably my fault as well. I tried the trotting poles first of course, I trotted up to them, he stopped suddenly to look at them and then proceeded to walk over which was fine, maybe it's a confidence thing? I may lunge him to practice. The second time, I was going to walk over them again but the moment I turned him towards them, he cantered up and trotted them beautifully. After the energy started wearing off, he trotted them without cantering them first. Of course, I didn't let him canter up, when I said he cantered up to them, I mean a couple of strides just as I turned him to face them he would shoot off and I brought him back in to trot. Bearing in mind this is the first time he's been schooled for a very long time, he and I have a lot to learn. After about half an hour or so, he started trotting up to the poles and would stop and walk over them sluggishly ignoring my click/kick/sticks. He may have been tired but we hack for nearly 2 hours a go and he was still being fizzy and excited when I turned to change rein, he would act like I was pointing him to a jump and go for it.

So then I tried the tiny jump, I turned him towards it and he got excited, cantering up to it and then flying the the side next to it?? This happened quite a few times, every single time I faced him to the jump, he cantered of his own accord but just refused it every time. So I got off and moved the jump on the angle that he was going past it at and I did it on a fairly sharp turn with no build up and he did it. But when I put it higher, he wouldn't. So what am I doing wrong here? He would only jump if I suddenly turned him into it with no build up. I don't understand! I wonder if he would jump if I was lunging him, will have to try.
 
Well done - a couple of suggestions:-
Try walk to canter, you are more likely to be in a secure seat than trotting, and if he is reasonably well balanced he won't find it too difficult. My horse didn't believe he could canter in such a confined space until he learned to do it from walk, do a few strides then back to trot.
And trot to the poles/jump, that way he doesn't have to worry about whether he is on a suitable stride or not. Make sure when he canters of his own accord, you bring him back to trot, he needs to learn to listen to you for decisions, and have him pop a small pole from trot. Rushing and running out are usually a sign of a horse who is worried about it - maybe smacked in the mouth in the past, maybe got in a tangle off the wrong stride, whatever reason get him popping out of trot and relaxed and confident about it before you ask him to do it in canter.
 
I will try that, thank you!
I can't get him to do it from trot either, he just keeps stopping. The moment I turn him to it, he gets so excited and forward but I can't get him to do it even in trot. After him stopping suddenly to look at the trotting poles, maybe it is a confidence issue? But if he was worried, why would he canter up to the jump in the first place?
On another note as well, I'm not asking for him to be jumping 3ft jumps etc but do you think he is capable of it? He is 16.2hh so he must be big enough?
 
It's impossible to tell without seeing how well you ride, whether you are blocking him, whether he is getting worried, you really do need a good instructor (emphasis on the good, there are lots of the other kind about!)
 
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