Tumeric

[windand rain]

As said I can tell a lame horse from a sound one be a bit odd if the placebo affect was showing me the lame horse was sound to me but lame to the rest of the world but think what you like I know it works for my horse and wont be stopping it. Maybe some people should be less derogatory and more open minded it might help their perspective and their horse

 

[littleshetland]

I was not talking about the placebo effect on the actual animal, but on the owner who believes the supplement actually does something. Jeez...

Elno, thank you so much for clarifying that for me. Such a shame your charm and sociability don't quite match up to your obvious enormous depth of scientific knowledge and understanding....

 

[Birker2020]

My vet took the p**s out of me giving my horse slippery elm and kept referring to it as 'sticky oak'. Yet it worked for my horse. Something that's been around for thousands of years.

The inner bark contains high amounts of mucilage, made up of starch, polysaccharides, and low levels of tannins. When water is added to the powdered bark, it is soothing to irritated mucous membranes of the intestinal tract, as well as the throat. No it's not a replacement for Gastroguard or anything like, but a post on this forum from a poster called Allover states "I have had 2 vets (who have both worked in Australia) say that anecdotally slippery elm was as effective as omeprazole in treating ulcers. It would be my first port of call if I suspected my horse was suffering with them"

So believe in Turmeric because I do.

 

[littleshetland]

Oh my God.
This thread is frightening in people's lack of knowledge in scientific methods.

Science generally works by having a group of subjects who you do X to, and a matched group of subjects who act as a control group. A comparison between the two groups' results should identify whether something has an effect or not.

Science is not 'Well I know it works because I ran widdershins round a church and now my horse is sound'.

As far as I can understand, historically, science and medicine were based on anecdote . If Edward Jenner had not heard , anecdotally, about milk maids having some kind of immunity against smallpox....we would have no vaccines.

 

[Pippity]

As far as I can understand, historically, science and medicine were based on anecdote . If Edward Jenner had not heard , anecdotally, about milk maids having some kind of immunity against smallpox....we would have no vaccines.

After hearing anecdotally about milkmaids having some kind of immunity against smallpox, Edward Jenner used the scientific method to theorise this was due to exposure to cowpox, a less virulent form of smallpox, and then tested his theory.

Anecdotes can be the inspiration for a theory, which is then tested with the scientific method.

 

[RHM]

There is a growing body of evidence that turmeric does have some affect in humans eg - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003001/

With all nutraceuticals I look at everything with a healthy dose of scepticism but there are some that work surprisingly well in a multitude of ailments.

The main issue lies in the fact most of the clinical papers focus on humans rather than animals. Our lovely equids are pretty naff on the whole absorbing things we think are good for them so dosage is a bit of a concern.

But back to the OP - turmeric is pretty safe and cheap so I wouldn’t say great harm is going to come to either your wallet or the pony. Crack on.

 

[Odyssey]

I can say from personal experience that turmeric does work for people, so presumably does for animals too. I'd had pain in my knee and shoulder for many months. After about a month of taking a decent brand and strength of turmeric (Nature's Best, 20,000mg) the pain in both had completely gone. Unfortunately I'm not susceptible to the placebo effect, I've tried so many things over the years for my ME, and nothing has helped much at all, or for long. This is one of the very few things, along with high dose vitamin d, that definitely has.

 

[Cowpony]

I've tried it on myself with no effect. I used to give it to my horse, but when I bought a new tub (same brand) she decided she didn't like it, so she doesn't get it now. Can't say I saw any difference, but I was using it more as a preventative measure as she's 18.

 

[Regandal]

I bet a lot of people here are having absolutely no idea of what a p value actually is, and how it is used.

And? Even if they don’t, they don’t need to be talked down to.

 

[tallyho!]

However, our perception of animals' behaviour is subject to the placebo effect.

How do you go about proving that? It's very difficult.

 

[Murphy88]

I always believed that 'placebo' was the effect of mind over matter (for want of a better description) as in, if I took a pill and thought it was going to cure me, and it did, even though the pill was in fact an ineffectual fake, then I was subject to the placebo effect. Am I right, or have I misunderstood this? Could someone explain to me how the 'placebo effect' works on animals...

The placebo effect works on the owner - we perceive that there is improvement even though the animal may not actually be better. There is lots of evidence of this in veterinary medicine, and anyone that has run a randomized controlled trial can attest to that - it's why good research uses blinded observers, and is one of the major difficulties in studies whose outcomes are based on owner feedback.

I can say from personal experience that turmeric does work for people, so presumably does for animals too. I'd had pain in my knee and shoulder for many months. After about a month of taking a decent brand and strength of turmeric (Nature's Best, 20,000mg) the pain in both had completely gone. Unfortunately I'm not susceptible to the placebo effect, I've tried so many things over the years for my ME, and nothing has helped much at all, or for long. This is one of the very few things, along with high dose vitamin d, that definitely has.

Herbal remedies may well have their place in veterinary medicine. However a key thing with turmeric is that, while you may well be seeing an effect in yourself or your dog, think of what the equivalent dose is in your horse. Setting aside actual efficacy, I think most studies have shown poor bioavailability of available turmeric preparations. From the papers I've read, you'd basically have to feed enough to turn your horse orange and make it smell constantly of curry to achieve anywhere near a therapeutic concentration.

 

[Ellibelli]

I was not talking about the placebo effect on the actual animal, but on the owner who believes the supplement actually does something. Jeez...

I don't know if your first language is English, but you have to be one of the rudest and most patronising posters I've ever seen on this forum. If you are so well educated why on earth don't you have access to the same media as the UK - I think it's known as the Internet? FWIW I personally haven't seen any benefit from turmeric either for myself or my animals, but I find it ironic that you have recommended Forageplus to the OP - which as well as selling great balancers also promotes several "herbs"....

 

[windand rain]

Sorry but still don't see how it isnt the turmeric that keeps my mare sound I agree it is anecdotal but I can assure you the placebo effect would have to apply to the horse as she is on three legs lame without it and as sound as a pound with it no other drugs, herbs, food changes or weather changes apparent. I guess I will just have to ignore the people who are too narrow minded to try anything but their drugs. The article shown above clearly states turmeric is as effective as any common commercial pharmaceutical painkiller if not more so

 

[Shilasdair]

Sorry but still don't see how it isnt the turmeric that keeps my mare sound I agree it is anecdotal but I can assure you the placebo effect would have to apply to the horse as she is on three legs lame without it and as sound as a pound with it no other drugs, herbs, food changes or weather changes apparent. I guess I will just have to ignore the people who are too narrow minded to try anything but their drugs. The article shown above clearly states turmeric is as effective as any common commercial pharmaceutical painkiller if not more so

The placebo effect applies to you, not the horse.

And you need to look very closely at the article above - and ask yourself why the authors might be keen to find turmeric effective.

 

[Murphy88]

The article shown above clearly states turmeric is as effective as any common commercial pharmaceutical painkiller if not more so

The first author of that paper is the president of a company that sells supplements, amongst them a turmeric formulation.... Scrolling down to the author disclosures is always a quick way of assessing the validity of a paper.

Not to mention 8 papers is pretty weak for a literature review/meta-analysis. They also nicely buried this paragraphed in the discussion: "Although the present meta-analysis of RCTs suggested that oral administration of curcumin reduced arthritis symptoms, as measured by PVAS and WOMAC, as much as pain medicine, it is difficult to recommend curcumin and turmeric as a good therapeutic agent for arthritis due to the limitations of the RCT studies included in this systematic review." Once authors start using words like "suggested" it means they didn't get the statistical conclusions to prove anything.

 

[Elno]

I don't know if your first language is English, but you have to be one of the rudest and most patronising posters I've ever seen on this forum. If you are so well educated why on earth don't you have access to the same media as the UK - I think it's known as the Internet? FWIW I personally haven't seen any benefit from turmeric either for myself or my animals, but I find it ironic that you have recommended Forageplus to the OP - which as well as selling great balancers also promotes several "herbs"....

I'm sorry you see me that way. I'm simply (and maybe a bit too bluntly I admit, and I'm sorry, but I get really frustrated and English is not my first language.) explaining that there is no real evidence that is backed up by genuine per reviewed science finding that turmeric does anything to a horse. There is barely (if any) evidence it does something to humans. Furthermore, human and horses are also not the same. Anecdotal evidence is also not the same as scientifically proven data.

Why do you find it ironic? I genuinly like Forage plus as balancers. They are well put together and with good quality ingredients, and the fact they sell herbs doesn't make me like them any less.

Not everything has to be black and white. Like I said before, some medicine we now have is derived from nature. Willow bark - aspirin, foxglove- digoxin, poppy- opium... The list goes on and on. Nature is truly amazing! But these are substances found to actually work, and why scientists figured out how to purify and amplify the active substance and putting it in a pill so that each pill has the correct amount of active substance. Should curcumin (turmeric active substance) would have proven to be effective maybe people would have done the same by now, but strangely there is no purified curcumin in the market. Why? Probably because there are already better drugs out there that does what curcumin "might" be able to do, and it is not worth the time or effort to make anything out of it when you for instance already have better medicine for arthritis or state of the art cancer treatment.

I still would choose to take an aspirin over gnawing on willow bark when I have a headache, or Digoxin if my heartrate was irregular, or feed Omeprazol instead of Slippery Elm to an ulcer horse.

About the UK media: That was actually a bit rude of you, I think. Obviously I have internet and access to most media outlets around the globe If I choose to. But I wouldn't expect you to follow Dagens Nyheter, or even Aftonbladet, so why do you expect me to follow BBC, and question my education if I don't?

 

[HorsesRule2009]

So what would be your thoughts on this,
https://www.supplementsolutions.co.uk/trm-kurasyn-360x-equine

I know a lot of yards that have stopped all other supplements and are now soley using this with fantastic results (professional yards) racing/eventing etc

 

[Odyssey]

A big problem with supplements such as herbs etc is that the efficacy of a product depends so much of the quality and quantity of its ingredients, which can vary greatly.

Many human supplements (not sure about animal ones) are made in China etc, and may be of poor quality and/or contain toxins. Quality products will be made in the UK and other countries which have good manufacturing standards, from good quality raw ingredients. Many brands contain a lot less of the active ingredients than stated on the label, too. This is likely to be why a lot of products are ineffective, it's not that the active ingredient doesn't actually do anything. If you buy a supermarket own brand supplement, or an unknown brand online, it may well not be great quality, and contain an ineffective dose. I think this is often why people say a product is useless, when if they'd bought something of good quality it would have been more likely to be beneficial. Some people buy a product purely because it's cheap, think all supplements are the same, and don't realise that it's often unlikely to work because it's poor quality/not potent enough.

 

[Winters100]

So what would be your thoughts on this,
https://www.supplementsolutions.co.uk/trm-kurasyn-360x-equine

I know a lot of yards that have stopped all other supplements and are now soley using this with fantastic results (professional yards) racing/eventing etc

I also use this, both for the horses and the dogs. Of course with supplements it is always difficult to say what 'works', especially as I use them mainly as preventatives, but I am happy to have them on this, sizarol and biotin.