TURNERS ABBATOIR - RED LION

Girlie1998 said:
Oh my god, I can't believe the amount of heartless supposedly horse lovers who are happy for horses to be slaughtered in such a cruel way! Shut that place down it's cruel.. Horses should not be slaughtered full stop!!
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Who says? We slaughter cows, sheep, pigs... why do you think horses are different?

Or are you saying all meat products and leather should be illegal?

Of course I believe it should be done humanely, but take issue with your statement that "horses should not be slaughtered full stop".
 
Girlie1998 said:
Yes thanks I am fully aware old retired horses don't disappear which is why I didn't sell my mare or send her to slaughter, she was with me until she took her last breath which is the way she should have been treated after many years of being my best friend. But unfortunately some people don't look at horses in that way. At the end of the day horses are going to be slaughtered however should they be mistreated at the markets and to then go on to be killed inhumanely. It's certainly not how I think they should end their lives. And to be honest most of these horses aren't coming from people who can't afford to keep them. They are breed purely for slaughter! I will continue to give as much as I can to charities and encourage people to rehome wherever possible.
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So now you do think humane slaughter's okay? :confused:

I'm guessing you're very young (by the year in your name :)) which is why your arguments, although well-meaning, are not very well formed. :)

People here are indeed horse lovers, and very opposed to their ill treatment. However it isn't simple, it's far more complex than "banning horse slaughter" (which would only cause greater suffering, sadly).
 
Girlie1998 said:
With an attitude like yours next we will be eating our pet dogs!
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Oh dear. What "attitude" is that?

I have supported animal charities and been doing what I can to reduce animal suffering (horses included) for well over four decades. I have personally rescued and nursed back to health creatures of many species, raised orphans and worked for various charities to help with re-homing.

But according to you, because I believe banning horse slaughter is neither possible nor (however sad) desirable in the current climate, I am the devil. ;):D
 
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WHW is not as happy with the current system as some posters here seem to be. This is a report on their findings and some proposals for humane horse slaughter

Outrage at Illegal Welfare Abuses at British Slaughterhouse

24/01/2013

"Disgusting, appalling and totally illegal" is how Roly Owers, chief executive of World Horse Welfare, describes the treatment of horses at one of Britain's main equine slaughterhouses as was revealed in footage obtained by a Sky News investigation aired today.

Outrage at abuse in slaughterhouse



• Call for operations to cease at plant until new procedures put in place with FSA guarantee of compliance with law
• Call for CCTV in all slaughterhouses that take horses to help FSA enforce law
• Inhumane slaughter ‘has no place in Britain'

Owers said: "What we have seen is a complete, systemic failure of the slaughterhouse to comply with UK welfare laws, and of the Food Standards Agency which should have been enforcing the law - but clearly has not.

"We are now calling for all operations at these premises to be suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law. We are also calling for Defra to install and monitor CCTV in all English slaughterhouses to aid enforcement.

"The public and horse owners need to have confidence that slaughter is carried out humanely in Britain. While it may be a sad fact, there is a role for humane slaughter of horses to help prevent them from suffering long and painful deaths due to illness or neglect."

The revelations come as Defra is finalising the arrangements to introduce new EU regulations to protect the welfare of animals at slaughter which will come into effect this summer.

The footage revealed a multitude of illegal practices resulting in unnecessary suffering for the dozens of horses shown in the film. "We saw horses being treated appallingly every step of the way - from a poor level of care before slaughter, to slaughter in groups of two or three which is illegal and extremely distressing to such social and intelligent animals, to botched or incomplete stunning that appeared to allow some horses to regain consciousness before they were killed.

"These practices are disgusting, appalling and totally illegal and they must be stopped immediately," said Owers. "Any chief government veterinarian would agree. There must be a full investigation, and operations at this plant must cease until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees full compliance with the law."

Just some of the many breaches of the ‘Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations of 1995 evident in the footage included:
• Shooting in groups of two or three - the law requires that animals are pithed or bled without delay after stunning.
• This requirement cannot be met when animals are stunned in groups. Bleeding horses one at a time after being stunned in a group causes totally unnecessary delay for some of the animals in the group. Some horses in the footage appear to be regaining consciousness before being bled. In some cases the footage showed that the first horse to be stunned was the last to be bled, increasing the likelihood that the horse would regain consciousness before they were killed.
• Horses were permitted to be within sight of another horse being stunned or killed - this is specifically prohibited by the regulations as witnessing such an event can cause significant distress to horses- as is evident in the footage. Even when shot singly, horses should not be shot in the sight of other horses, but in the footage another horse or horses are often present and can even see inside the ‘stun box'.
• Animals were not pithed or bled without delay after stunning; in some cases the delay was considerable - the Regulation clearly states that horses should be pithed* or bled without delay to prevent them gaining consciousness.

In all of the footage viewed, World Horse Welfare did not see any animals being pithed and therefore they should have been bled without delay - but in many instances this did not happen. In many cases the delays in bleeding the animal were lengthy and completely unacceptable.
•Animals were not restrained in an appropriate manner prior to stunning/killing so as to spare them any avoidable pain, suffering or agitation - World Horse Welfare saw many botched stuns in the footage. It appears that three different types of equipment were being used to stun or shoot the animals and in a number of cases the stun was not effective and had to be repeated. In addition the slaughter men had difficulty in raising the head of the animals in order to apply the guns.
• Animals were not moved with care; blows were inflicted on some animals with staves or ropes - this abuse of horses is clearly not allowed under law. Nor is it necessary.

As an exception to this catalogue of breaches, World Horse Welfare did witness at least one slaughter man who demonstrated competence in both handling and killing.

World Horse Welfare believes that the footage showed evidence of catastrophic breaches of the law and that a full investigation is required. The charity strongly believes that operations at the plant should be immediately suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law. The charity is calling for the introduction and monitoring of CCTV at all slaughterhouses licensed to take horses in order to assist the FSA in their duty of enforcement.

"I cannot see the public trusting this establishment again until we have CCTV monitoring in place. The FSA has staff on the premises who should have been enforcing the laws that protect these horses, but their efforts have been found seriously wanting," said Owers.

However, World Horse Welfare urges the public and horse owners not to panic. "There is no evidence to suggest that other slaughterhouses in the UK are abusing the law in this way. We believe there is a role for humane slaughter. We have identified 6,000 horses at risk in the country and humane slaughter may eventually be the kindest option for them to save them from a lifetime of neglect and suffering. Homes for horses are in short supply," said Owers.

"We do not want to see horses exported overseas to slaughter where welfare standards may be even lower - that would be an even worse tragedy." The charity has significant evidence of the suffering experienced by horses transported long distances across Europe to slaughter and is campaigning for a short, maximum journey limit in line with scientific evidence that shows that horses suffer on longer journeys.

Defra had indicated in its recent consultation on the slaughter regulations that they were not minded to require compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses at this time but the issue would be kept under review.

"We said in our response to the Defra consultation that we are not convinced that the case against compulsory CCTV has been made and it should be revisited as soon as more evidence on the value of CCTV became available. We now have that evidence," said Owers. "If the FSA cannot fulfil its duty to enforce the law solely through its staff on the ground, CCTV would not only support them to fulfil their duties but would also provide vital reassurance to the public that horses are being handled and slaughtered humanely."

World Horse Welfare is putting forward the following arguments in favour of CCTV in a formal response to Defra, and has prepared a petition that concerned members of the public can sign:

Sign here: http://bit.ly/WaFEjf

CCTV cameras:
• Can be installed into spaces where an inspector cannot safely be present - such as in the ‘stun box'
• Will always be present, unlike inspectors
• Cannot be intimidated, unlike an inspector
• Produce a permanent record, allowing both good and bad practice to be identified and used in training for slaughterhouse employees.
• Will help counter any malicious accusations against the proprietors or employees of licenced premises and permit proprietors to demonstrate that they treat horses humanely
• Can be viewed securely from any location, offering more flexibility for the FSA and could even save money if they replace some on-site monitors
• Will help improve public confidence that animals will be slaughtered humanely
• Will allow the British public to feel confident that British meat, which has a reputation as a high welfare product, is the result of humane slaughter procedures
• Suitable CCTV systems can be purchased for less than £500, so the costs to business are not unreasonable
 
And before anyone points out, okay guys I know I shouldn't feed the troll. :rolleyes::o

I'm just slow on the uptake sometimes. :)
 
Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.
 
EstherYoung said:
Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.
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Good post, entirely agree.

I think the whole of the meat production industry should be examined and all animals should be handled humanely and kindly. Just because I personally love horses doesn't make them a special case.
 
EstherYoung said:
Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.
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Ah, you're so concise. well put.
 
Good post Horserider, and thanks for sharing. I have already signed the WHW petition. They do some very fine work and they have my highest support.

But the high level of complacency amoungst horse owners surrounding this subject still surprises me :(:(:(
 
The problem does not start with Turner, it does start miles earlier.

It does start with those people that just increase the population of horses (I don`t want to call it breeding) and here specially with people bar of knowledge about how to keep and produce horses.
So this whole game is is sick from the very start.

As well this problem is caused by the politics. Closing down all local abbatoirs does not only kill the local butcher and craftsman business it does lead to animals that have to travel for days and weeks till they get killed.

No matter if cattle, pigs, horses or what ever. Stressed animals will give stressed meat and stressed meat is never as good as the the local and with this much more human killed product.

The here named company, well I am living near a place where the did turn up a couple of times every week and did load lory loads full of horses. Hundreds.

These horses did come from all over the island and most of them even with no passports. Some in a condition that even the journey to this collecting point was cruelty. Apart from the following transport to UK and other countrys.

Turner is only a factory and we don`t need to expect that factorys are very human. Time and mass production is cash.

There is no need to close Turner down, there is a need to open many local abbatoirs with proper butchers so that no animal has to travel and specially not under factory circumstances.

We need them.

But we don`t need a sanctimonious law for so called better controll in center spots, we need them badly local.

OK this won`t help big companys for the global market but it will help the envioronment, the animals and the local business.
 
Haven't read the whole post so please correct me if I am wrong.
Horse slaughterhouses NEED to be working because realistically - and yes people may disagree - there are far too many horses around as it is. If there weren't any slaughterhouses many more horses would be dumped, abused or shot themselves. Now i'm in no way saying that horses should be mistreated or killed inhumanely at all - that's wrong - but when done right, I personally don't see a problem with it.
I think there are are far too many people trying to shut down abbatoirs because they think horse slaughtering is cruel and wrong. I'd love to take some people who think that to an animal shelter, full up to the brink with unwanted, mistreated horses that didn't get slaughtered and were left for dead.

I think a lot of people are given the wrong impression on how horses are slaughtered and this may make them make judgement on horse welfare in slaughterhouses. Sometimes, I really wish that people would do more research into what they're trying so hard to stop. Because, I don't think many of them actually think about what would happen if there weren't any horse slaughterhouses.
 
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Parachute said:
I think there are are far too many people trying to shut down abbatoirs because they think horse slaughtering is cruel and wrong. I'd love to take some people who think that to an animal shelter, full up to the brink with unwanted, mistreated horses that didn't get slaughtered and were left for dead.
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Actually i think there is a very small misguided minority who are calling for all horse slaughter houses to be closed. This misguided bunch of individuals are distracting attenation away from the group (including WHW) who are just calling for Turner's to be thoroughly investigated and shut whilst that happens because the practices at these premises where utterly unacceptable and laws have been broken.
 
Dab said:
Actually i think there is a very small misguided minority who are calling for all horse slaughter houses to be closed. This misguided bunch of individuals are distracting attenation away from the group (including WHW) who are just calling for Turner's to be thoroughly investigated and shut whilst that happens because the practices at these premises where utterly unacceptable and laws have been broken.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters? :o
 
Parachute said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters? :o
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I think this is more than a 'tad inhumane'.
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2013/01/19/british-abattoir-accused-abusing-horses
 
Parachute said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters? :o
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read post #40 above by Horserider with the statement from Roly Owers CEO of WHW...footage from Turners is more than a 'tad' inhumane. Laws appear to have been broken.
 
Parachute said:
*Sits back to watch the unfolding argument*
:D
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No, Parachute, I'm out of it now. :D I suspect her age is in her name despite her protests, and it's really rather silly of me to be be drawn into arguing with a child. :o It started out well, I just tried to point out that her wish to ban all horse slaughter was misguided. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm off now to put the dog in the oven. ;):D:D
 
Dab said:
read post #40 above by Horserider with the statement from Roly Owers CEO of WHW...footage from Turners is more than a 'tad' inhumane. Laws appear to have been broken.
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Yes, I've just read the whole post and seen a bit of the video. I understand now, and the video was disgusting. I don't think i'll ever get those images out of my head sadly :(
 
FionaM12 said:
No, Parachute, I'm out of it now. :D I suspect her age is in her name despite her protests, and it's really rather silly of me to be be drawn into arguing with a child. :o It started out well, I just tried to point out that her wish to ban all horse slaughter was misguided. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm off now to put the dog in the oven. ;):D:D
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*leans forward and puts popcorn down - raises one eyebrow*
So you're telling me, I FINALLY find a famous HHO argument and just when i'm getting all comfy and settled you're going to stop it. Damn girl - You're not living up to HHO expectations ;) :D:D
 
Parachute said:
*leans forward and puts popcorn down - raises one eyebrow*
So you're telling me, I FINALLY find a famous HHO argument and just when i'm getting all comfy and settled you're going to stop it. Damn girl - You're not living up to HHO expectations ;) :D:D
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As pointed out already, I'm no girl but an an old devil. :mad::D:D
 
Girlie1998 said:
Oh my god, I can't believe the amount of heartless supposedly horse lovers who are happy for horses to be slaughtered in such a cruel way! Shut that place down it's cruel.. Horses should not be slaughtered full stop!!
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I agree, I think the goverment, the RSPCA and the WHW should fund research into an Elixer that will ensure all equines live forever and ever :D
 
horserider said:
No objection to slaughter houses, but The Red Lion has given cause for grave concern for years locally.

Should Turners continue to operate if it is found that they have consistently fallen below the standards required for the humane housing and care of horses, both prior to slaughter and during the slaughter process ?

Or is it ok to turn a blind eye and accept bad and at times, cruel practice ?
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this is the crux of it for me.

yes we need slaughter houses in the uk, yes we need the RedLion, HOWEVER, there's been enough bad practise at Turners in charge of the RedLion for too many years. If the Hillside footage had never ben made would we still be unaware of the appalling standards of welfare that existed in there cos Turner himself seemed oblivious or he knew damn well his slaughter men's adherence to welfare law was sloppy and didnt give a sh**.

Turner needs to lose his license now and the Redlion operated under different management where CCTV operates 24/7 and regular monitoring to ensure standards are complied with.

This is he only way forward in my eyes.
 
Girlie1998 said:
And that's why I pay money to various charities. So what your saying is if a human can't look after their horses then they deserve to be killed inhumanly and mistreated before hand rather than rehomed? Have you watched the video, hmmm thought not. How about putting money into charities or rehoming where ever possible? And when you say send the horses off to Europe did you not see the horses being slaughtered are being smuggled over from Ireland, yip so I'm sure they came over in a lovely box with hay and water.... NOT
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If Paul McvCartney, Brian May and all the rest of the 'celebrity' animal lovers gave ALL their money to equine charities there still wouldn't be enough to cope with all the horses who are old, unsound, unsuitable for riding, or just unwanted!

I'm involved with one of the charities - and have done my share of helping wth rehoming - but what CAN be done is the tip of the iceberg! Had to laugh at the 'smuggled from Ireland' story - thanks to the current state of the Tripartite agreement there is no need to 'smuggle' them - horses move freely betweent Ireland, France and the UK with NO controls or health checks (so nobody would notice dodgy passports because no-one looks at them!!)

Unwanted horses would - ideally - be humanely PTS at home: that costs a MINIMUM of £300! If people have fallen on hard times and can't afford to feed their horse, they probably can't afford that £300! But taking the horse to the nearest licensed slaughter house means they get PAID - say - £200-300 (which could help with buying the kids' new shoes and school clothes!) And the horse's neglect, and possible serious suffering on a lorry to Europe, is ended!
 
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