TV dog trainers

[Jenz]

Just wondering really, if any of you rate Cesar Millan from the Dog Whisperer or Victoria from It's Me or the Dog?

I occassionally watch the Dog Whisperer, mainly laugh at the silly people that never exercise their dogs and wonder why they're naughty! But a few things make sense that I had never really though of before, such as a dominant dog howling/barking when left alone, he says it's a protest because the dog thinks it's the leader of the pack and he thinks he should decide when you leave and when you don't, rather than it always being a case that the dog is sad that you're gone.

Then I recently saw It's Me or the Dog, and to be fair I only saw 5 minutes of the particular episode but she was giving treats to a dog that wanted to bark at other dogs out on a walk, which I thought was odd and a completely different way of training.

My mum used to be really into obedience and training when I was growing up so have a little bit of an idea, but now I've got a littl'un of my own I'd like to make a good start!

Just wondering if anyone rated either of these TV trainers or any others and what you thought of them?

 

[RuthnMeg]

Personally I prefer Cesar, I think he talks more sense into the senseless dog owners that we have seen on his show. I have never used any type of training method that I have seen on my own dogs, they don't need it (good dogs), however the in-laws' dog is another game!! Would love Cesar to sort him out (or the in-laws themselves for that matter!)
Iam not against Victoria, I think she is good, just maybe she irritates me more (or is it the owners??)

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think they are both good and teach people to treat their dogs like dogs, they are not human and do not understand or compute human emotions, morals, standards and do not understand every word of the English language.

Are you sure Victoria wasn't rewarding the dog with food when it removed its' focus from the other dog back onto its' owner? Because I have done that - ie dog is arsey - check it - Woah, what was that? Looks back at me - good boy, treat - you get a treat for looking at and paying attention to me, you get a pop on the neck for being arsey with other dogs.

TV trainers are great and give good ideas, but you can't beat one to one with a real trainer if it is at all possible!

 

[Murphy88]

The behaviourist who teaches us at uni (specialist in behavioural medicine) really doesn't rate Cesar Milan. The analogy she uses is putting a cork up the bum of a dog with diarrhoea - looks great at the time and makes the owner happy, works for a short period, but eventually the dog will explode and the problem will be 10 times worse! His methods work by stopping the behaviour in the short term, and not addressing the initial reason for the behaviour, therefore the dog just ends up frustrated and will usually end up continuing the behaviour but going to extremes to get the point across.

I watched its me or the dog the other day for the first time, and thought that Victoria talked more sense than Cesar. Having said that, it is all basic stuff that she teaches, like turning your back on a dog that jumps up etc, and everything she suggested I knew already from my Mum. However my housemate and I have decided that if the vet thing doesn't work out we are going to move to America and do what Victoria does and earn a fortune.

 

[Jenz]

She could well have been using treats as a re-focus, I really did only see it for 5 minutes or less and just saw agression and then treats and I thought what?? Maybe I should watch a full programme before I comment, hehe!
I very much jumped to the conclusion that she was showing off in her fancy car. Homework for tonight is to watch them on telly on the sofa with the dog, no, whoops, dog isn't meant to be on the sofa!

 

[soloabe]

[ QUOTE ]
The behaviourist who teaches us at uni (specialist in behavioural medicine) really doesn't rate Cesar Milan. The analogy she uses is putting a cork up the bum of a dog with diarrhoea - looks great at the time and makes the owner happy, works for a short period, but eventually the dog will explode and the problem will be 10 times worse! His methods work by stopping the behaviour in the short term, and not addressing the initial reason for the behaviour, therefore the dog just ends up frustrated and will usually end up continuing the behaviour but going to extremes to get the point across.

I watched its me or the dog the other day for the first time, and thought that Victoria talked more sense than Cesar. Having said that, it is all basic stuff that she teaches, like turning your back on a dog that jumps up etc, and everything she suggested I knew already from my Mum. However my housemate and I have decided that if the vet thing doesn't work out we are going to move to America and do what Victoria does and earn a fortune.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't think this is true.

I was one of 3 people from our dock-diving club who were lucky enough to spend 3 weeks at Caesars rehab center in LA.

His dogs are some of the happiest most well behaved dogs i have ever seen.

I got to meet and spend time with dogs that have been helped by caesar and just come back once a month of so for play time.

His methods may be different and they do require that the owner carryon the training and state of mind as do every other type of training but in my mind they work and i didn't see a dog there that wasn't happy and relaxed.

 

[Jenz]

On a similar note, I'm going to look for puppy training classes near by. Any tips on what makes one trainer/training school better than another?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Wow Katie, is he hot in person, too?

Haffy, personally speaking, as a big dog person, I would be looking for someone who will tell it to me straight and will stick with me for the long haul (not say 'this dog is beyond help'

), would encourage me to be firm but fair and back me up when I am wavering - also someone who can take the dog, work it and give it back to me, I ie give practical tips, and to have the balls to tell me when I am getting it wrong!

I am also a great believer in sticking at training and going on to the next level, if possible - you're great at this thing? Right, we'll try you with that thing then too, rather than just getting somewhere then stopping.

A lot of places nowdays use only positive reinforcement, baulk at the use of choke chains etc etc etc - IMO there is a happy medium between being all sweetness and fluffiness and light (for some dogs, sorry, that just isn't going to work) and the other extreme of shouting and militaristic regimes

 

[Annie&Amy]

As a qualified vet nurse I watched the dog whisperer programme out of interest as a few of our clients rave about him. To be honest with you I was disgusted by what I saw! This particular dog trainer is very into domination and I have also heard it said by a dog behaviourist that by constantly doing this and never finding and sorting the cause of the problem eventually that dog is going to snap.

I have never seen the guy in real life and I know that tv shows are very different on showing what's actually being done as they like it look dramatic but it does worry me alot that they put on at the start of the show that no animals where harmed during the making of the programme, what does this tell you!! Also if you're having to use shock and prong collars to get a result you're not that good a dog trainer!!

I would rather not see any dog training programme on the tv as it shows such a small part of what it actually entails to turn a dog round and I think this should be left to qualified dog behaviourists but if they do show them I'd much rather see dog training done using positive re-inforcement like in it's me or the dog.

At the end of the day it's only my opinion but if you want to see something shocking go on the dog whisperer website and look at the video of him choaking a dog and see if you feel differently then xxxx

 

[MurphysMinder]

Victoria on Its me or the dog does seem to cover the basic common sense things that most dog owners should know but don't seem to

, but I think her shows are very heavily edited to make her look like a miracle worker. I've never seen Cesar but have friends who compete in working trials who reckon he has some good ideas and training methods. I do think that anyone who has a puppy should attend a minimum of puppy training classes just to give them the basics.

 

[soloabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow Katie, is he hot in person, too?

Haffy, personally speaking, as a big dog person, I would be looking for someone who will tell it to me straight and will stick with me for the long haul (not say 'this dog is beyond help'

), would encourage me to be firm but fair and back me up when I am wavering - also someone who can take the dog, work it and give it back to me, I ie give practical tips, and to have the balls to tell me when I am getting it wrong!

I am also a great believer in sticking at training and going on to the next level, if possible - you're great at this thing? Right, we'll try you with that thing then too, rather than just getting somewhere then stopping.

A lot of places nowdays use only positive reinforcement, baulk at the use of choke chains etc etc etc - IMO there is a happy medium between being all sweetness and fluffiness and light (for some dogs, sorry, that just isn't going to work) and the other extreme of shouting and militaristic regimes

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you and i think that some of the TV trainers are make it look good for the camera's and then leave you in the lerch kind of things.

I do know that with caesar the dogs are welcome to come back to weekly sessions at the center if they are close enough and if not they are recommended someone local to them.

And he is a kinda hot but he is pretty damn short.

 

[CAYLA]

I do like to watch caesar more than the stillewell woman, I think she is very mamby pamby and it makes me laugh when she returns and says "oh the dog is doing so much better" and the view is her walking down the street with the owner with the dog pulling all the way to the end of the lead and usually on a harness

, I think she jsut covers the basics and has a never ending bag of treats, I don't think she would beable to manage any of the aggression that caesar deals with(which impresses me the most) re caesar, I think he is better at the more serious problems but sometimes gets a little carried away with the verbal side of things, I have seen problems he has dealt with and thought "I would never tackle that like that" one prominant programme being a cat and a dog(the dog was obsessed with the cat) and I felt he had very little experience with cats and dogs together as he handled it badly

Otherwise the aggression he deals with is spot on, he is not so good at the basics, but I dont particurlarly rate VS and hardly bother to watch after the few times I have.
He is very confident with dogs, and I do hate these people on some of the forums "one in particular" that slate him as being a bully and saying utter crap like he could have sorted that pit bull that wanted to eat everything in site with a nice little tit bit and a good cuddle

at yet they sit at home with their one or maybe 2 little darling dogs and have never seen an aggressive dog or it's capabilities in motion

I dont always agree with his interpritation of behaviour either, I would not agree the howling is dominance but more a way of expressing anxiety at suddenly finding it's self alone and trying maybe to locate the pack(owner) bit like us yelling "don't leave me"

Anyhow this is getting long and im rambling

caesar is best

 

[CorvusCorax]

[ QUOTE ]
I do hate these people on some of the forums "one in particular" that slate him as being a bully and saying utter crap like he could have sorted that pit bull that wanted to eat everything in site with a nice little tit bit and a good cuddle

at yet they sit at home with their one or maybe 2 little darling dogs and have never seen an aggressive dog or it's capabilities in motion

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger that

 

[CorvusCorax]

[ QUOTE ]
As a qualified vet nurse I watched the dog whisperer programme out of interest as a few of our clients rave about him. To be honest with you I was disgusted by what I saw! This particular dog trainer is very into domination and I have also heard it said by a dog behaviourist that by constantly doing this and never finding and sorting the cause of the problem eventually that dog is going to snap.

I have never seen the guy in real life and I know that tv shows are very different on showing what's actually being done as they like it look dramatic but it does worry me alot that they put on at the start of the show that no animals where harmed during the making of the programme, what does this tell you!! Also if you're having to use shock and prong collars to get a result you're not that good a dog trainer!!

I would rather not see any dog training programme on the tv as it shows such a small part of what it actually entails to turn a dog round and I think this should be left to qualified dog behaviourists but if they do show them I'd much rather see dog training done using positive re-inforcement like in it's me or the dog.

At the end of the day it's only my opinion but if you want to see something shocking go on the dog whisperer website and look at the video of him choaking a dog and see if you feel differently then xxxx

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask you, as a vet nurse, how you deal with problem dogs if they come to your workplace, and, if you were an owner/trainer, how you would best deal with a dog that was dominant and aggressive towards other dogs, especially a larger, high-drive breed?

 

[Annie&Amy]

With dogs that are coming into the practice that are aggressive it is 99 percent of the time due to nerves, most of these dogs with time will come round. At my practice we do the veterinary work for a major dog charity and I've seen some very nervous aggressive dogs especially dogs who have been kept in crates or shut in sheds for the majority of their lives, these dogs have no concept of humans but with patience you can bring them round. Yes it would be alot quicker to dominate them but all you're going to make the dogs more frightened of is us humans.

For dogs that have aggression problems at home etc we would refer them to a apbc registered dog behaviourist. These dogs need programs developing to help to re-habilitate them and we would always refer them to a qualified specialist. The owners have to realise that to get a cure it is a long process with no quick fixes. Aggression is caused by two things fear and frustration. There has been huge amounts of research done into dominance theories and I'm sure if you googles it you'd find the research. We would refer also for the dog that was dog to dog aggressive, that's not a cop out it's saying a specialist needs to see this case.

Dogs are not wolves, they are now so domesticated and are so far removed from wolf packs that they should be treated as a different species. It's like saying we should be treated like apes cause we descended from them.

Hope it makes sense as I've only just woken up. Like I say this is only my belief and I'll probably not change peoples minds but just wanted to put my point accross.

 

[CorvusCorax]

No problem, thanks for your answer.


Sorry for hijack, Haffy

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]

Dogs are not wolves, they are now so domesticated and are so far removed from wolf packs that they should be treated as a different species. It's like saying we should be treated like apes cause we descended from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you could enlighten Husky owners and the same with ACD's ! Also you might like to tell Southampton University that their research into my sister PACK of Huskys is not worth the paper it is written on?

My Dogs and hers are VERY wolf/dingo like in their attitudes and behaviour, my two would look upon your clicker with about as much respect as a teenager receiving an ASBO! Oh and in my personal opinion treating some ASBO holders like apes would be wholly appropriate! If dogs and Wolves are so different why can you not tell from DNA if a dog is a wolf cross, and why do ferral dogs over the world start to look similar and more spitz like after only a few free breeding generations and form packs?

Or perhaps you could do better than the Vet Nurse and Vet that thought they could handle my aggressive dog recently. They didn't or wouldn't listen to me THE OWNER who explained fully his history, that no amount of biccies are going to erase! 1st time he came back wearing two muzzles like a bandana around his neck with the practice head nurse, he's very intelligent says she, evidently more so that you said I and now he’s got away with it !!!

Next visit arrogant know all vet took up where vet nurse finished and tried to take him away from me, he had just bent her finger back trying to bite her and was getting more agitated. When they went to take him he went to flick the muzzle off and you have never seen someone hand a lead back so quickly in your life! In the end they had to stand one side of the door and use it as cattle crush and finally allow me to handle the dog since I am the only one he respects. Don’t get me wrong and don’t generalise as like Cesar, me and my excellent dog trainer, (who will use a choke when necessary) will reward when he is good.

I would be interested to know just how long you take gaining the confidence of a dog in an emergency?

If I was not firm with that dog and he had gone to a clicker enthusiast he would be DEAD. There are many methods of training out there as many as there are for teaching humans what suits one does not always suit another and at the end of the day all dogs still have a powerful set of teeth and some far more intelligence than their owners or handlers and they are far closer to a wolf than a Human, we have been breeding horses for 1,000's of years but they still run when frightened!

 

[CAYLA]

Agree 100% and wrote something simlarish last night and it got wiped and I was in tears(not quite) but sounds good for the way I was feeling after my page long opinion.

Dogs are not so far removed that they are now a new breed of fluffy child, and this IMO is why we have these issues in the first place with dogs, they are not defenceless little creatures, they are potential lethal killing machines,and as suggested by Karyn K in a typical vets like mine(some staff are next to useless), there are crush cages, dog catchers,cat catchers muzzles, human restraint(clamp like ones) if u have my strength)

and non is stress free and cuddles and buscuits dont keep a dog calm esp a large breed one with immense power that even 3 humans would struggle to keep down

, vets/nurses are not normally experts or experienced with dealing with aggressive animals and will usualy ask the owner to pre muzzle, if the owner has gone by the time the dog has turned then all the restraints come out till the dog is finally if managed knocked out, this is something a trainer does not have the pleasure of, they have to work to calm the dog best they can to make it manageable.

I have seen him CM use prong collars o large breed dogs, do u think these dogs feel much pain when after fighting with other dogs u can barely see the marks left and teeth actually tear and puncture and rip, and the dog certainly does not stop fighting from the pain

(unlike a prong collar) that does not penetrate the skin.
Dogs like shepherds,akitas, rotts, staffs, pitts, mastiffs have a pain threshold beyond any human hence why I wish people would not humanise them, it's bloody hard work and takes a lot of confidence and firm handling to deal with large breed unsociable/aggressive dogs with little or no know background, and no we dont see many being dealt with because usually it's easier to put them in a bag

as I think if anything Caesar has promoted exercise ad made people start to think about how to train a dog, hopefully this will mean less in a bag.
I have mentioned above I dont agree with the way he explains things sometimes but compared to Stilwell he deals with completely different scenarios.

Im posting now or it will dissapear....not even sure I have made any sense or said what I wanted to, but im scared of losing what I post

 

[CorvusCorax]

OK, now that I have had time to digest!

To put it bluntly, I would rather a dog got a pop on the neck with a choke chain, prong or in the worst case scenario, an e-collar than a dead dog - and that is a scenario that some of us on here have had to face.

In my experience, with large, high-drive dogs, if you do not have the mental or physical edge over the dog, you are fighting a losing battle. Call that dominance, I don't know?
If you have ever seen a dog 'zone out' when it sees the trigger to its' aggression, you will know how scary that is and all the treats and positive reinforcement in the world will not get that dog to focus.

I have used choke chains and yes, I had to use a prong collar for several months as 'insurance' alongside it (never as a full-time collar) - deployed only when needed and when the timing was exact, as it must be, or else it will not work or, worse, will work as agitation rather than correction.

I used it under the supervision of three canine professionals and my dog is happy, healthy, non traumatised and no longer displays the dog aggression for which I had to resort to using it.

In fact, he is wearing it in some of the many pictures I have posted of him, and I doubt anyone even noticed it.

For prong (and e-) collars, each dog has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

I am not going to run around recommending them to everyone I know, I do not agree with them being used for general obedience or heelwork problems - but used properly and under guidance, they can work.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Ditto KarynK, Cayla and CC (sorry I know thats a bit of a cop out but saves writing it all out again). I have always used choke chains on my dogs because it gives a short sharp correction rather than a constant tug. I have mentioned before my friend who has used a prong and very occasionally e collar on her very dog aggressive male GSD. Without them I suspect he would have had to have been pts, instead he is sitting calmly amongst other dogs in the pics I posted from H4H walk. Oh and CC, I did spot the prong collar

 

[Spudlet]

QR

I actually do rate VS's methods for 'normal' dogs, and I have seen positive reinforcement used sucessfully on a small dog which had issues with barking at other dogs - the owner uses a clicker to distract the dog and get her focus away from the other dog. In this case, negative reinforcement (a lead pull etc) had had no effect. I am using a similar method to distract Henry when he gets overexcited, and it is working much better than negative methods have done up to now.

I think far less harm will be done by people trying the VS method at home by themselves than the CM method, which can be successful for an expert like him but which I think could cause a lot of damage if done by someone not expert in reading their dogs behaviour.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good points, well made

but just to add, I believe that 'negative' activities (such as correction with a lead pull) should, where appropriate, be followed by positive if it has produced the behaviour you want (praise/reward for dog returning its' focus to handler, stopping the undesirable behaviour) or else there is little point in doing it.

 

[Laafet]

Can I just butt in, I am not really all up on doggy pyschology, but with my boy, mad spaniel, sadly no longer with us - he had a bit of a 'deaf' problem when he got focused on a pheasant or such like. VS methods would not work with him as he was not at all food motivated, we left one dog training group as the leader thought we were weird because he did not respond to her constant attempts to feed him. I like CM but overall I think most of the people in these programmes have no idea what a dog needs and just treat them like humans. I have no desire to own a big large agressive dog as I know I could not give it a job to do and currently I am dogless despite living and working on a stud, I feel that with my horse to look after I just do not have the time to walk a dog enough. I also find VS really annoying in how she talks to people and the dogs. Just a few ramblings of my own and just out of interest what is prong collar?

 

[Teaselmeg]

I'm afraid I would not let CM within a mile of my dogs, he is a bully. The Pack leader/dominance theory is old hat:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

Try watching his programme with the sound turned down so you cant be biased by his interpretation of what the dog is doing. A lot of times you will see the dog throwing lots of calming signals at him which he interprets as dominance. A lot of dogs shut down through his bullying and he calls it calm submissive. Yes you need to give any dog boundaries and rules but why would you want your dog to live with you in constant fear in case you poke it, kick it, when you can train it using modern positive methods so your dog is more able to understand what you are asking of it. CM will tell the dog off for bad behaviour, but very rarely praise it when he gets the behaviour he wants, how is the dog to learn what is acceptable from that sort of training?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Sorry, should have added that as well as a choke collar I use positive reinforcement, e.g. a quick check - don't do that, and then when the dog is watching me a reward. I am also using clicker training for Evie, so not sure where that puts me in this argument.

I'm off out to training class with her shortly, with a pocket full of liver and a choke/check collar.

 

[Spudlet]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, should have added that as well as a choke collar I use positive reinforcement, e.g. a quick check - don't do that, and then when the dog is watching me a reward. I am also using clicker training for Evie, so not sure where that puts me in this argument.

I'm off out to training class with her shortly, with a pocket full of liver and a choke/check collar.

[/ QUOTE ]

EEEEKKKKKK I've just realised what this reminds me of - it's the doggy equivalent of all those barefoot posts in NL!!!! ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!

Joking aside, I think that puts you in the sensible camp - ie the one that does what works for your dog

I just think I'd rather see people who maybe aren't sure of what to do trying the VS method before the CM one, because I think the chances of doing more harm than good are smaller with her methods, the worst you might do is accidentally train your dog to do something you didn't mean to. Whereas with the CM method, if it's applied wrongly (eg to a dog which is scared rather than aggressive - we all know not everyone can tell the difference!) it could make things a lot worse. But it all depends on the individual circumstances

 

[CAYLA]

Quick reply

Does anyone know why she(VS) ever tackles or makes comment of people allowing their dogs to pull them off their feet, including her, she trains in high heel boots and when she takes the dog from the owner she also seemingly gets dragged along but never sees this as an issue

so either she finds it acceptible or does not know how to deal with the issue.

She also touched on aggression in todays programme, which literally involved her running past the stooge dog at break neck speed(with the problem dog at the end of the lead pulling her) and saying "this way she gets to sniff the dog briefly but has no time to become aggressive or initiate a fight

She fed the dog at least a 15kg sack of food in treats in throughout the programme

literally shovelling the stuff down and seemed weighted by two large pouches on her waist(no doubt treats)
Her answer to stopping the dogs fighting at the door, was to muzzle one dog when the doorbell rang

the dogs where taught to sit and wait for the arrivees to come in but them proceeded to jump all over the guests(which was deemed ok)
To tackle the dog focusing on other dogs in the street and becoming aggressive the owners blocked the dogs view of the other dog, so literally moving everytime the dog moved it head and shovelled treats into it's mouth and remained panicked and stressed throughout until strange dog passed

(VS) thought this was a great improvement

The only thing that impressed me through out was the fact she commented on the fact the dogs needed exercise.(not brain science) and informed the owners on introducing a whistle to help with recall.

To Teasle....I too dont agree with the whole dominanace, through the door first, eat first and all that, but there are some clear dominance issues with dogs that stick out like a sore thumb which cannot be excused for anything else, but I still dont think CM is cruel or has dogs terrified to with an inch of their life, to me it's more like the dog is actually encountering a reprimand and even the mildest of reprimand will shock the living daylights out of a dog that has never been chastised in it's life, hence why some are a hell of alot more respectful and responsive in the hands of a more confident handler.

My big breed dogs all rescues and came to me with some serious issues esp my akita who was very dog/human aggressive she and the rest are by no means scared of me or await a poke or a kick if they do something I deam wrong(because I have never kicked or poked my dogs) my mouth is enough to get their attention after initial reprimand on a check chain(shock horror) or body blocking(i.e stopping her form attacking dogs by allowing her to run free with a vast amount of dogs and blocking any aggressive advance myself(by placing myself between her and the other dog the method I used to stop her dog aggression(and indeed it was dominant behaviour she was displaying(as a naturally dominant breed), this threw her(she had clearly never been reprimanded) I knew her previous owners where scared of her as was th whole family

, she was unable to advance past me to attack another dog, something she has prob never encountered before, but im not pamby pamby or treat crazy and her reward was to interact freely without me interfering and blocking her way, even now if a dog initiates aggression with her, her first reaction is to look at me, and she get a stern LEAVE IT(and she does) this means she has the freedom to mix and is well socialised without being muzzled and perminantly segrigated from other dogs which to me heightens the aggression, she dos not wear a check chain either she has a slip lead.

I have read these articles and have behavioural qualifcations(which would have been of bugger all use had I not had hands on experience) and the most recent course I did went into the dominance theory in detail and explained our interpritation of dog behaviour and alot made sense, but then again alot did not IMO anyway, everyone has their different methods, and as KK suggested every issue is different every dog is different and may not respond well to one way of training as the next.
I jsut think we are turning into a nation of owner that think we have hairy children on the end of the lead and forget what some of these dogs where bred for and what they are capable of

and it's part of the behavioural issues we are creating.

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, should have added that as well as a choke collar I use positive reinforcement, e.g. a quick check - don't do that, and then when the dog is watching me a reward. I am also using clicker training for Evie, so not sure where that puts me in this argument.

I'm off out to training class with her shortly, with a pocket full of liver and a choke/check collar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Choke/check chain

...............you clearly should not own a dog, and dont skimp on the liver, u need atleast a 15kg bag equivlant of the stuff, this will make her focus on the liver from the moment u go out till the moment u return home, she should not even get the chance to glance at another dog/see where she is walking if u have the amout u should have

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think it is safe to say that a one-size-fits -all method simply cannot be used with all dogs. They are different shapes, sizes, types and personalities.

To say NO dog should be treated in 'x' way and ALL dogs should be treated in 'y' way is just folly, IMHO.

Teaselmeg - I notice you often turn up during these debates and then we don't hear from you again for a while.
I think a lot of forum users would like to hear what you have to say and would appreciate your advise about how to best use positive reinforcement with their dogs when they have problems.

Like CM or not, at least one user has seen he and his dogs at first hand and they sound like a happy, healthy bunch.

Laafet...
http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html



(Expects mass flaming)

 

[KarynK]

I thought you were very quiet on this one CAYLA !!!! I've done that before and after you get over the fustration it is still quite theraputic!

Just had some fun with my little darling baby tonight, little b'stard started challenging me in the car so out came the spray collar two refils of citronella and a battery change later and he finally admitted defeat! But not before he tried to grab the remote out of my hand. No surely he cant be that intelligent to know that if he eats that bit I loose!!!!!!

CC have PM'd you re something else but quite agree that prong collars used for the correct reason and not just because you are too lazy to spend time TRAINING your dog are far better than death or someone getting seriously injured.

Like CAYLA I just wish more people would select their dog on what suits them rather than what looks good on the end of their designer lead!!!!!

Had a chap at work looking for a puppy for his kids, helped him do his homework and sent him to dog training, they have a lovely little westie bitch who is a real family dog and he is not at all embarrased to walk a little white dog, rather than a great big thing that might eat the kids.

Totally with Cesar, you only have to look at those Pit Bulls, all scared up from their fighting days, wondering happily round in a pack with no agression, I take my hat off to the guy and would love it if he would come to the UK and sort out Blue for me!! Must admit bored with the little fluffy things and their dogs but love to see him work with the real problems, especially that Mal x Wolf. To be fair to Cesar he is NOT a dog trainer by his own admission, but I wish there were more of him than some trainers with all their qualifications!!!