Two Mills Sport Horse dealers

H

harrypotter

Member
Joined
28 September 2009
Messages
22
Visit site
Hi.. I am searching for a horse and have come across Two Mills Sport Horses on the Wirral... Can anyone give me their thoughts or experiences either good or bad?? Appeared to be very professional, and the horses were reasonably priced too..... I dealt with John Johnson...
 
I bought my horse through them. She's ace.
smile.gif
 
Mmm ... I got in a horse for schooling 8 weeks after sold from there. It was - IMHO - totally unsuitable for the teenage rider (who was a decent jockey but it was a 'hot' WB.) It started napping badly very soon after purchase (not helped by the fact that they apparently don't take a horse out of the stable between purchase and collection!)

They DO have strong, capable riders there and the horse who behaves well while ridden by them there might NOT be quite the same when you get him home. And my client reported a distinct lack of helpfulness when they ran into trouble!

Horse is now doing well though - with a lot of help from us.
 
[ QUOTE ]


JG - the horse was decent underneath, eventually?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes - with quite a bit of work. The owners got his back and teeth sorted before he came here and we had to do a bit more on his back. He was here for about 8 weeks schooling - and lass had lessons on him - and my rider now visits regularly to teach her on him. She had her first start BE on him the other week and he went quite well.

But he had a rather 'secretive' history - our investigations led us to believe he had been a 'problem horse' who had been straightened out quite quickly by a strong rider - without the underlying issues being addressed! Not the way I like to sell horses - but then they probably make more money at it than I do!
grin.gif


I DO think the idea of selling a horse and then keeping it shut up until it is collected is just wierd - and asking for trouble!! Ours are hacked/schooled/turned out as normal right up to the day they leave - I don't want them getting to their new home and jumping on new owner's head!!
 
FWIW, I've also heard something negative from a reliable source
wink.gif
They sell an awful lot, there must be some bad apples.

They had a lot for me to try when I bought my horse, all reasonably priced and all sound, which was an improvement on other dealers I visited.
crazy.gif
I liked the service, and my horse has been fantastic.
 
I had a look at their website out of curiosity and the one thing I would say is that most of the horses have a broken neck posture which can result from excessive draw reins, maybe something to ask them about?
 
i've been on a few training weekends there and they are a really professional outfit and do sell nice horses at reasonable prices...as with a lot of dealers though they have VERY capable jockeys and maybe make the horses look superficially better than they might be underneath...but thats pretty normal with a lot of dealers i think...
smile.gif
 
Friends of mine bought a lovely quiet four year old that we were told had been broken three months for their very competent ten year old daughter. She rode him twice and he was as quiet as a lamb both times. When he had been in his new place 2-3 days he started bucking like a bronco and no-one at the new, professional, yard would get on him.

We returned him as "not fit for purpose" - ie he was for a ten year old and not suitable, but we did have quite a task persuading them that they had to give a refund and not insist on an exchange. There were three of us there, all of us customer service experts who know the law and two trained negotiators, including me, and we had to use every single ounce of our abilities, and produce a solicitor's letter, to get their money back for them. And I took some pretty strong criticism in the process, too (being their "expert"). People who know less about their rights and are not as strong characters would probably have felt forced to accept an exchange instead.

There was no question that they would give an exchange, that was agreed with no problem at all. Nor was there any suggestion that they knew he would turn into a bronco, in fact I don't believe they did. But I do believe that he was probably being worked quite a lot and by mentally and physically strong riders while he was with them, and that with less work and with a less professional rider, he blew up. (For example, when we got there the first time he was under heat lamps. I didn't think about it at the time, but in retrospect one can't help wondering if he was being dried off after having been worked before we got there? We should have asked, of course!) We found out on taking him back that he was was broken by them to be sold on behalf of a client, so I feel that it is unlikely that they had already had him three months and he possibly wasn't broken for as long as we had been told.

There are definitely worse dealers, they are at the more professional end and they do have a nice range of horses at reasonable prices not a bunch of old nags. But I would insist on seeing the horse when it has definitely done no other work that day and talk to the owner direct if it is an agency sale and not a horse they own themselves.
 
I'm sorry but surely this is common sense? If you buy a horse from a dealers, then yes you can assume it's in a fair amount of work and is ridden by very competent riders. When you buy any 4 year old you've got to realise that they aren't going to be perfectly behaved all the time, and if you buy said 4 year old and then don't work it enough then it's going to demonstrate it's fitness to you! If people want to buy a horse that will plod along and doesn't need a lot of work then don't buy a warmblood, don't buy a 4 year old and don't buy from a sports horse dealer. The dealers were probably unwilling to take the horse back because they're running a bloody business and are sick to the back teeth of incompetent people overjudging their abilities and then blaming either the horse or the dealer when things go tits up.

...rant over.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you buy a horse from a dealers, then yes you can assume it's in a fair amount of work and is ridden by very competent riders. When you buy any 4 year old you've got to realise that they aren't going to be perfectly behaved all the time, and if you buy said 4 year old and then don't work it enough then it's going to demonstrate it's fitness to you!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I sell 3 and 4 year olds - backed here - and I WOULDN'T sell one (even the 'dope on rope' ones) to someone I wasn't SURE was competent to buy a youngster (and I have refused outright to sell one to someone who thought she was competent and was mad keen to buy!)

And if I KNOW a youngster needs a lot of work to keep it 'straight', I make sure the buyer knows that! And I 'test' youngsters by leaving them unworked for a couple of days to see if they will hot up!

Admittedly, I'm a breeder rather than a dealer - so I know my horses inside out and I care VERY much that each one gets a home that's as near perfect as possible. But I'm also not in the business of killing people! And if a buyer DID have a problem with one of my youngsters, I'd either advise them and help them sort the problem - or have the youngster back. This is not totally altruistic - I want them to recommend me to their friends!
grin.gif
 
I doubt Two Mills have the time to leave all their horses for a few days, just to see if they hot up. It's a dealers, not a rescue centre. People seem to expect this thing of getting help with the horse after it's sold, but i doubt many dealers offer this to their customers. It's not private selling. If someone wants to buy the horse, they've been to try it and are happy then you sell the horse to them. Even if they haven't been to see it!

I have on occasion helped out when people have had problems with a horse i sold them, but always it was the persons fault - not the horses, and not mine. I get sick of people tarring all dealers with the same brush. Maybe if people bought horses that were suited to their abilities then there wouldn't be as many problems as i regularly read about on here.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I doubt Two Mills have the time to leave all their horses for a few days, just to see if they hot up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet if someone has bought the horse and hasn't yet collected - they're happy to leave it in the stable without turnout or exercise until it leave?? A recipe for disaster, I think!

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if people bought horses that were suited to their abilities then there wouldn't be as many problems as i regularly read about on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if dealers took care to match horses to buyers there would be fewer problems too. The dealer is - in law - an expert - and has a 'duty of care' to his clients. If he knows a horse is a bit 'difficult' and works it into the ground before a buyer comes, who is at fault when it doesn't work out?? If a car dealer sells a car and it goes 'wrong' shortly after sale, the dealer has to sort it or have a serious run-in with Trading Standards!! Horse dealers should be the same - if they want a GOOD reputation. Satisfied clients recommend a dealer to their friends - unhappy customers post about their experiences on internet forums!! NOT so good for business!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I doubt Two Mills have the time to leave all their horses for a few days, just to see if they hot up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet if someone has bought the horse and hasn't yet collected - they're happy to leave it in the stable without turnout or exercise until it leave?? A recipe for disaster, I think!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did i mention anything about that? No.. so why direct that comment at me? I'm not Mike Jones & co.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if people bought horses that were suited to their abilities then there wouldn't be as many problems as i regularly read about on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe if dealers took care to match horses to buyers there would be fewer problems too. The dealer is - in law - an expert - and has a 'duty of care' to his clients. If he knows a horse is a bit 'difficult' and works it into the ground before a buyer comes, who is at fault when it doesn't work out?? If a car dealer sells a car and it goes 'wrong' shortly after sale, the dealer has to sort it or have a serious run-in with Trading Standards!! Horse dealers should be the same - if they want a GOOD reputation. Satisfied clients recommend a dealer to their friends - unhappy customers post about their experiences on internet forums!! NOT so good for business!

[/ QUOTE ]

When did i say anything about a horse being worked into the ground before a buyer came? Once again i don't see any revelance to the quote you selected.
confused.gif


Not wishing to start an argument, i'd just prefer it it you didn't tar all dealers with the same brush. Why not say 'maybe if Two Mills took the time to match horses' instead of saying it at me, which is how your reply comes across.

Just for the record, I always outline to any of my potential buyers what they are getting themselves into. If you buy from me, you're buying a young warmblood bred for competition that is hunted and show jumped every week, and is exercised 6 days a week. I don't have time to then 'vet' my customers. If they want to buy the horse and they have the money, then obviously i am going to take it. I'm running a business, i'm not trying to re-home horses - i'm selling them. Luckily for me, i have a good client base and most of my customers are professionals, experienced amateurs or are under the wing of good instructors/professionals. Two Mills advertises itself as sport horse dealers - not happy hacker dealers. So unless you fall into the above categories, then chances are their horses aren't for you.

I'm lucky that i have good horses too, and i can't remember the last time i had an on-going problem with any of them. But, once they're sold they're sold. I still see a lot of them at competitions, or hear about them through contacts, but a lot of them i never hear about again. Oh and i rely on word of mouth to sell my horses, i don't have a website and i very rarely put any ads out... and i've never heard about a post on Horse and Hound forums slagging me off - so i guess i'm doing something right. But thanks for your little tip on getting a good reputation anyway
wink.gif


By the way - to the original poster - i thoroughly recommend Two Mills if you're after a reasonably priced competition horse.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Did i mention anything about that? No.. so why direct that comment at me? I'm not Mike Jones & co.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't directed AT you - it was a more general point about one of the things that dealer has done which has meant that some horses got to their new homes as rather different horses than when tried by the buyer.

[ QUOTE ]

When did i say anything about a horse being worked into the ground before a buyer came? Once again i don't see any revelance to the quote you selected.
confused.gif


Not wishing to start an argument, i'd just prefer it it you didn't tar all dealers with the same brush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, not directed AT you - rather at the general point you made blaming the buyers for buying the wrong horse! The buyer can only judge the horse in front of them - they can't know how it has been 'prepared' for sale. That is pertinent to the OP - and to all potential buyers (whether buying from dealers or private sellers!)

[ QUOTE ]
If they want to buy the horse and they have the money, then obviously i am going to take it. I'm running a business, i'm not trying to re-home horses - i'm selling them. Luckily for me, i have a good client base and most of my customers are professionals, experienced amateurs or are under the wing of good instructors/professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fair enough - for MOST of your customers. But what about the ones who THINK they're ready for a young Warmblood competition horse - yet can't ride one side of it - but STILL want to buy it? Would you sell it to them - knowing that if it's not properly worked every day it'll start doing hoof-stands and drop them on their heads?? I suspect you wouldn't
confused.gif
- but many dealers WOULD - and do!

And most often in the 'happy hackers' category - because there are happy hackers - and there are happy hackers. Neither the horses - nor the riders - are all the same. A horse that is quiet and well-mannered with a capable, confident rider can change almost overnight if ridden by a nervous novice.

A dealer has both a moral AND a legal obligation NOT to sell a horse that is unsuited to the rider and may be dangerous if owned/ridden by that person - even if the person is foolish enough to want to buy it. But sadly, many of them do.

I shouldn't complain - part of my business is re-schooling 'problem' horses - and most of them are recently purchased. And - in many cases - the horse wasn't suitable for the rider when they bought it. And in some cases, it never will be.
 
surely the problem lies in the fact that as dealers with a high turnover of buyers and horses its impossible to thoroughly 'vet' every purchaser? it could be possible in the example given above by cpatryes (sp?!) that the buyer could ride the horse fine when it was purchased so Two Mills 'thought' they were capable of riding the horse in the same way that the purchaser 'thought' the horse was suitable?! if i went to a dealer i would FULLY expect the horses to have been produced for sale by being once, maybe twice a day by effective, strong riders....and i would factor this into my decision whether to buy or not....
...oh and in the case of the example above i know that two mills put ALL their horses under the heat lamps before riding so probably nothing suspicious in this...we were encouraged to do this when staying there on training camp with our own horses....
cool.gif
 
"But, once they're sold they're sold."

This is not the law in the UK, though it may be so in Ireland where I see the poster of that comment is from.

In the UK, whether the seller was aware of the problem or not, a good (horse in this case, could be a table, TV etc...) which within a "reasonable" (3 days in our case) period turns out to be "not fit for purpose" (ie bucking like a bronco so a professional would not ride it, never mind a ten year old child) then, if it was sold by a Dealer, the Dealer MUST give a refund. That is current consumer law.

To defend myself from the attacks I received in this thread - I sent Two Mills an email describing exactly what we needed to explore in the second trial and emphasising how the safety of the child was of paramount importance. We couldn't have made it much clearer that we were relying on them to supply a horse to be ridden by a child, and they assured us that the horse the mother bought was that horse.

Of COURSE it was against my better judgement to buy a recently broken four year old for a ten year old (however good a rider, and she is now winning rosettes on a 16 hand middleweight, so she's good!), but the child had fallen in love and everything about the hour and half she spent riding him before purchase pointed to him being a lovely quiet boy.

It was upsetting enough for the child to have to give up a horse she already loved, and feel like she had failed big time, without having what felt like a right old battle with Two Mills to agree to release the money so that she could be consoled by going and buying another one.
 
sorry if you feel i've attacked you- wasn't the intention, was just trying to see the scenario from both sides...i DO agree that they should offer you a refund/exchange if horses proves unsuitable so quickly but do stand by my comments that i think ultimately its purchasers decision to buy the horse and not the dealers job to check that its 100% suitable. yes a really good dealer will do this and i certainly wouldn't expect them to lie/withold the truth but do remember they are in the business to sell horses and make money....
...and i have to say that if i was buying a 4 year old i would always be open to the idea that its behaviour might completely change when not ridden by a professional- thats why i chose an unbroken 4 year old as i didn't want to buy something that seemed further on that it was as a result of being professionally produced....
smile.gif
 
"not the dealers job to check that its 100% suitable"

But that is precisely what "fit for purpose" means, and that is current consumer law in the UK. That means that it absolutely IS the dealer's responsibility to make sure that the horse is 100% suitable for what the buyer says they want it for and to give a no quibble refund if that proves not to be the case.

And surely you don't mean by expecting that the "behaviour might completely change" that you would include expecting it to go from "as quiet as if it was sedated" to "a bucking bronco that no-one at the new stables could be paid to get on"? Of course we expected his behaviour to become unsettled in a new home. But not that he would buck half way around the indoor school before finally unseating her, and then throw the child into a wall and cause her serious bruising.

The child is very competent and subsequently bought a horse whose schooling was far from complete, with a dodgy canter transition, which was "too big" for her by a fair margin - on which she was being placed in dressage and showjumping competitions on within months.

So can we stop questionning whether my advice was lacking now please and concentrate on the question that was asked by the original poster?
 
FFS! i haven't questioned your blimmin advice...was simply trying to see things from both sides. you admitted yourself that 2 mills probably didn't expect the horse to change like it did and you also said that the child tried the horse twice and thought it was lovely/safe/suitable etc- so surely to people watching (both the buyers and the sellers) it looked like a good match and that the horse WAS 'fit for purpose'?
confused.gif
 
Having read your response, what stood out was why on earth anyone would by a four year old for a ten year old child!
Any young horse needs careful consistent schooling and education, and there are very few ten year olds out there who unless they have professional parents supervising are capable of doing this.
I have never heard anything bad about Two Mills before , and feel in this case, it wasn't their fault.
As for the horse being under the heat lamp, my guess would be they had given it a bath prior to it's viewing as is perfectly normal!
When buying horses for kids it's always wise to keep one old head on the pairing, preferably that of the horse...
 
First off my comment is a GENERAL comment and as I (to be honest as always) cba to remember or search for 'who said what', please relate accordingly should you feel the need.

No matter how 'able' a 10yo is it is common sense that a just broken 4yo by a sport horse dealer is NOT the best brainwave anyone could have.
10yo do not possess the capabilities to fully understand the psychology of the horse and the '2 second rule' that applies when breaking and schooling.

horses put under a heat lamp are being made ready for work in the most professional way, their muscles are warm an relaxed and therefore injuries are less likely. It also makes youngsters much happier about being ridden and the learning process as made as comfortable as possible

Once puchased a horse may not be taken out of its stable (usually collection would be within 2 days) to minimise the chances of injury - you wouldnt be happy had you paid for the horse only to find it had been kicked in the field or sustained an injury making it unfit for sale - your 10yo would be heartbroken then surely.

A recently broken 4yo imo should move yards and be taken back a few steps. This allows for you to gain its trust and respect and for it to have time to settle in and remember what it is all about .. horses have brains they are not clockwork machines!

You wee offered an exchange ... as you and I both know that is what they are obligated to give you on the spot and I suspect you have threatened them with court action to reap the money back. Two Mills have an impeccable record and they will not enter into a legal dispute given that most courts dont know one end of the horse from the other and therefore will almost certainly side with the buyer that is why there is Consumer Rights... you would be deemed less knowledgable than the dealer and therefore in a court the blame lies with them .. doesnt make it morally correct though!!

Your choice in horses for a 10yo imo is quite shocking tbh .. you freely criticise Two Mills but then admit to having bought a horse again, completely unsuitable for a 10yo but because this horse maybe is more forgiving than the 4yo you bought, you then use it as 'proof' of your 10yo's capabilities? Thats not viable.

Two Mills and John Johnson are highly reputable for a reason and obvious to anyone that they are more capable than most .. they have fantastic riders so that 'problem ponies/horses' are not made by them!

As for keeping a younster from being worked to see if it will hot up??? wtf? When you start a horses routine you dont play mind games with it then and expect not to get a response? I question your work with problem horses tbh if that is your 'notion' for rehabilitating the minds of youngsters who have psychological and behaioural issues....they thrive on routine and that is one thing you are not giving them.

How advanced did you expect a pony broken for 3 months max to be exactly? If you expected it to be advanced then you are admitting that you knew Two Mills were going to be able to get more from this pony in that short space of time than a 10yo and therefore should not have expected a 10yo to be able to carry on the schooling process alone without error.

jmo of course ... i await your heated response given the previous postings =)
 
Buying horses is a minefield, it really is.Even when you are painfully honest re your abilities/lack of in my case, some really don't care.Dealer 1 was selling a horse, a cob,advertized as a perfect gentlemen at all times and snaffle mouthed at all times.Has done fun rides,note the s on the end of rides.
He started by putting it in a dutch snaffle, second ring down and got quite rattled when I pointed this out to him.Lovely instructor (mine) arrived soon after.He thought she would collude as he knew her.She did not.He rode him in the school and sugested instructor rode him there.We asked to see him hacked out instead.He was rattled again and took said cob out on the road where he was kept going very forward.Instructor rode him and was polite and said he was lovely but not right for me. He knew the game was up anyway.The rides we learned later was 1 ride where he deposited his rider.Instructor later said he was sharp, spooky and nappy.
Dealer 2 tried to sell me a sweetbutbadly put together 5 year old even though I said I wanted eventually to do some lowlevel (admittedly) dressage.Instructor explained in detail to me why that wouldn't happen.Neither of these dealers were Two Mills.
I would say, if you have one, or can borrow or steal one, a good knowledgeable instructor is your very best friend when you are buying a horse.
Not all private sales are upfront or wonderfu l either.However some people are lovely and we shouldn't forget them either!! Did meet one or two.
 
not heard anything bad about this dealer (old thread anyhow!).... but i did email asking about schooling and my god they need to learn to spell and write a good email to a prospective customer who was going to part with almost £600....

i didnt go with them as tbh, that really put me off. only bad thing i have to say about them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top