Tying a horse to a solid object

[FfionWinnie]

Seriously - you really believe that do you? Ho hum.

Yes I know it (close as possible to fact, since I don't actually want my horse to have a bomb drop on it, I can't prove that) however recently my two horses were tied to the trailer at an EC centre where a large telehandler boom with huge bucket on it failed while in motion and dropped unexpectedly hitting the tarmac and causing a horrendously loud and prolonged noise right beside them. Every horse on the place panicked except mine who looked both mildly surprised and did not pull back or break their necks or do anything remotely stupid. Ho hum the benefit of situational and proper training wins the day

 

[fburton]

So the horse that's tied solid will, sooner or later, back off removing the end wall of a building? Or a strainer post? Or the side of a lorry? OK, that's possible.

As is the scenario of the horse that snaps the string and promptly runs in front of a double decker bus! That's possible too.

The aim should be to limit the risk and I'll continue to teach mine that backing up will cause pressure on the poll which is unpleasant and something to be avoided.

No arguments there.

Before I became a fluffy bunny, I snared a lot of rabbits and foxes. I never ever found one with a broken neck, but that is the common objection to tieing solid or teaching a horse that humans are stronger. Forget the anecdotes, but has anyone actually seen a horse break it's neck like this?

Soft tissue (muscle, ligament, tendon) injury is much, much more likely than a broken neck. This is analogous to drivers getting whiplash injuries in minor collisions rather than broken necks. Frankly the "broken neck" objection sounds like old wives tale to me. So no, I've never seen a horse break its neck from pulling back, but I have seen one that had issues lasting several months that were presumed to be due to neck pain. This type of injury can be very hard to pinpoint and doesn't always resolve quickly.

What is the objection to 1) teaching a horse to yield to pressure, giving it opportunities to learn that pulling gets it nowhere, and thoroughly desensitizing it to alarming sights and sounds, so that 2) it can be tied to something that can break safely in the very unlikely event of something causing it to pull back violently? Best of both worlds, I'd have thought.

Obviously, where public safety is deemed to outweigh the risk of injury, by all means tie to something truly unbreakable and unmovable. For some people and situations that might mean doing it every time. But why not at least admit the option of 'insecure' tying when the balance of risk lies the other way, e.g. on a private yard?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

this is the problem. I've seen horses take off dragging pieces of timber buildings, lengths of fencing etc... there is usually precious little in the way of unbreakable stuff around your average livery yard.

With that in mind, mine tie to a piece of easily broken string, but they don't pull back. I can't remember the last time one of them broke a string. But I would prefer that to be the outcome rather than having a horse lobbing a lump of timber round at the end of the rope.

This exactly! My old pony which was a sod for deliberately pulling back (think he came from Ireland ) once went off around the yard with a plank of wood into which the ring was screwed (with twine) dangling around his legs. Even tie rings screwed into a solid wall will come out.

Eventually the weakest thing will break whether that's the twine, rope, wall or worst the horse. I'd rather it were the twine.

 

[nianya]

'merican here...

I was taught to never ever tie up using the reins. So you'll see that in movies of the "old west", but no good rider ties with reins. Most Western riders that trail ride you'll see ride with a halter under their bridle. We always carried one on trails with us and took the bridle off to tie up. We are also taught to always tie using a quick release knot. So it really bothers me to be a in a position where my horse is tied with a knot that tightens under pressure as I've seen at barns here and in Europe.

However, in the twine vs post thing I come down very much on the side of the "solid" object. Obviously that can go wrong, anything with horses can go wrong. However, I had a mare who'd been badly abused, including tied to a post with a rope around her neck and whipped. If she was afraid of anything she'd pull back and take off, breaking posts, shed walls, halters, and lead ropes. The problem was she learned very quickly that if she put enough pressure on anything she could just leave. Retraining her meant she needed to learn that the absence of pressure came from her easing up, not from the object breaking. Tying her to anything that broke too easily only reinforced her idea that she could break ropes/halters at will. And we did actually see her do this at times when she wasn't scared, she just didn't want to stay put.

By the end of her life she would ground tie, cross tie (she used to hate that), or tie to any post/tree and give to pressure as she should. When we teach our youngsters we do it by putting a large inner tube around a post and tying to that. They can pull back without hurting themselves and it stretches, but they ease off and get a pressure release before they break anything. So all of our horses ground tie/post/tree. If those options aren't available, I will hold the lead rope the entire time I am brushing/tacking up, as I don't see the point of letting my horse learn she can leave at will. Takes a long time to retrain that!

 

[Dry Rot]

No arguments there.


Soft tissue (muscle, ligament, tendon) injury is much, much more likely than a broken neck. This is analogous to drivers getting whiplash injuries in minor collisions rather than broken necks. Frankly the "broken neck" objection sounds like old wives tale to me. So no, I've never seen a horse break its neck from pulling back, but I have seen one that had issues lasting several months that were presumed to be due to neck pain. This type of injury can be very hard to pinpoint and doesn't always resolve quickly.

What is the objection to 1) teaching a horse to yield to pressure, giving it opportunities to learn that pulling gets it nowhere, and thoroughly desensitizing it to alarming sights and sounds, so that 2) it can be tied to something that can break safely in the very unlikely event of something causing it to pull back violently? Best of both worlds, I'd have thought.

Obviously, where public safety is deemed to outweigh the risk of injury, by all means tie to something truly unbreakable and unmovable. For some people and situations that might mean doing it every time. But why not at least admit the option of 'insecure' tying when the balance of risk lies the other way, e.g. on a private yard?

Totally agree.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Yes I know it (close as possible to fact, since I don't actually want my horse to have a bomb drop on it, I can't prove that) however recently my two horses were tied to the trailer at an EC centre where a large telehandler boom with huge bucket on it failed while in motion and dropped unexpectedly hitting the tarmac and causing a horrendously loud and prolonged noise right beside them. Every horse on the place panicked except mine who looked both mildly surprised and did not pull back or break their necks or do anything remotely stupid. Ho hum the benefit of situational and proper training wins the day

Oh how marvelous. I sincerely hope complacent self congratulation doesn't come back to haunt you at any point in the future. To be so certain that your 'situational and proper training' has made a totally unpredictable and free thinking animal incapable of harming itself or anyone else under any circumstance is rather OTT don't you think. But your total confidence is to be admired, even if it does show considerable lack of experience and expertise in the ever evolving training of any particular horse at any given time.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Oh how marvelous. I sincerely hope complacent self congratulation doesn't come back to haunt you at any point in the future. To be so certain that your 'situational and proper training' has made a totally unpredictable and free thinking animal incapable of harming itself or anyone else under any circumstance is rather OTT don't you think. But your total confidence is to be admired, even if it does show considerable lack of experience and expertise in the ever evolving training of any particular horse at any given time.

What a shame you have to be so nasty.

Do you ride your totally unpredictable and free thinking self harming and dangerous animals on the road / in public because I really think you better tell your insurance company of the risk you are taking with the lives of others in that case.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I've seen a horse tied directly to a lorry, it pulled back and took half the side of the lorry with it. result was a very dead horse.

Leicester County ? I saw that too.

 

[Flame_]

I barely tie up at all if I can help it except inside a stable or lorry but if I do it is always to weak string. Years ago, I saw two horses run around a yard tied to the same stable door pulled off its hinges. It ended better than expected with both horses unharmed but it left one, Flame who I later bought, and me, with a life-long paranoia about tying. I don't think hot bloods and real panickers are ever the type to revert to training and reason whilst having a meltdown which is completely different to dealing with naughty opportunists who pull back for entertainment or out of habit.

 

[oldie48]

OK, we are discussing tying a horse to a solid object or a breakable tie. Aren't we? All the posts about horses dragging logs, walls and sides of trailers behind are , so to speak, a bit of a red herring. The problem seems to me A), train the horse to tie up properly and you can tie it to "anything" because even if you drop a bomb on it's head, it is so well trained it won't pull back. B) tie it to something breakable because it is poorly trained and likely to pull back or C) Train your horse to tie up properly but tie it to something breakable so if a bomb drops on it's head, it can get away before it explodes. Well do you know, I just might go with C!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

OK, we are discussing tying a horse to a solid object or a breakable tie. Aren't we? All the posts about horses dragging logs, walls and sides of trailers behind are , so to speak, a bit of a red herring. The problem seems to me A), train the horse to tie up properly and you can tie it to "anything" because even if you drop a bomb on it's head, it is so well trained it won't pull back. B) tie it to something breakable because it is poorly trained and likely to pull back or C) Train your horse to tie up properly but tie it to something breakable so if a bomb drops on it's head, it can get away before it explodes. Well do you know, I just might go with C!

Common sense speaks thank goodness. Yes I would also go with option C every time.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

What a shame you have to be so nasty.

Do you ride your totally unpredictable and free thinking self harming and dangerous animals on the road / in public because I really think you better tell your insurance company of the risk you are taking with the lives of others in that case.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I never ever found one with a broken neck, but that is the common objection to tieing solid or teaching a horse that humans are stronger. Forget the anecdotes, but has anyone actually seen a horse break it's neck like this?

Yes. Not personally, I admit, but it happened to someone I knew.

Its a tale of a pony, a chicken and a vicar.

Pony is tied up to a tree in the vicarage orchard (with permission). Vicar wanders past, and noticing that a chicken is scratching around near the pony's feet, decides to flap his coat at the offending bird. Pony jumps back in surprise.

Owners return to be told by the worried vicar that the pony has fallen down and isn't moving...

I always tie to a breakable string. I teach my horses to tie up, so the string is very rarely broken, but it will give way in an emergency. ETA ie option C!

 

[ester]

OK, we are discussing tying a horse to a solid object or a breakable tie. Aren't we? All the posts about horses dragging logs, walls and sides of trailers behind are , so to speak, a bit of a red herring. The problem seems to me A), train the horse to tie up properly and you can tie it to "anything" because even if you drop a bomb on it's head, it is so well trained it won't pull back. B) tie it to something breakable because it is poorly trained and likely to pull back or C) Train your horse to tie up properly but tie it to something breakable so if a bomb drops on it's head, it can get away before it explodes. Well do you know, I just might go with C!

I think it does point out that what a lot of people think is solid often isn't. Our rings are attached to the most structurable bit of our wooden stables but I don't think I would call them solid, and our concreted posts are well not so concreted anymore. Certainly neither a like a proper tieing post/hitching rail.

We have one of each. The mare's inclination in any stressful situation is to reverse, particularly with traffic and that includes horse lorries going past her in parking areas even when going out weekly to competitions and happy to have her own drive round the field about her! She had an accident with a skip lorry before we got her as a 4yo and despite spending 11 years next to a rock solid in traffic beast and lots of desensitising work in certain situations she hasn't got over that. She also learnt to pull back before she arrived. I've learned some tips off the forum that if we had our time again I might have tried with her but essentially she has always been tied to twine, and never unsupervised, the only time she went anywhere was when another horse had broke free and went through her so she went with him.

 

[conniegirl]

If it makes any difference, my lad who wont tie up is irish!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I don't get the fuss about this.

We sit on the backs of these animals and ride them into potentially catastrophic situations if they suddenly decided to take flight and ignore the rider. If someone joined the forum asking for advice on their horse which would occasionally bolt with a rider on so the rider used breakable stirrup leathers to allow an easier bail out, I can imagine the responses.

Or what about a horse that won't stay contained behind a fence, do we start using dental floss fencing in case it gets caught on its escape attempt. No we don't we build a bigger stronger safer fence!

Or a horse that smashes it's way out of a stable door, do we just allow them to behave like this?

No not in my world.

So why is it so terrible to expect an animal to stand tied up without moving and most importantly - not to be worried by being tied up and not moving.

I also tie mine to the ground some times. Really quite handy.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, well it all comes down to training doesn't it? And facing up to the fact that sometimes you have to do things that are hard and involve risk. In fact EVERYTHING to do with horses involves risk and danger, and being hyper risk-averse isn't really the most useful or effective approach.

 

[oldie48]

The English language is wonderful isn't it? We can spend our time reading the same words and it becomes very clear that our understanding of the "debate" is completely different to someone else's. At this point I bow out to separate a bit more baler twine and explain to my very mannerly horse, who ties up beautifully, that if a bomb drops on his head, he is not to move but I might have a complete meltdown!

 

[Flame_]

A panicked horse can do an awful lot of damage to itself and to people attempting to free it whilst hung up on something. This is why tack is always made of breakable material or has many break points and harness is now virtually always attached with quick release catches. To me, the pulling back reaction is exactly the same and I'm shocked people are fine with tying without safe break points. My heart and brain go crazy watching a restrained horse pulling back when the string won't snap. Makes me shudder thinking about it.

 

[ester]

Yes, well it all comes down to training doesn't it? And facing up to the fact that sometimes you have to do things that are hard and involve risk. In fact EVERYTHING to do with horses involves risk and danger, and being hyper risk-averse isn't really the most useful or effective approach.

Also doing what you think is best with what you have got, and by that I mean horse and kit, in this case probably more the kit which many people are restricted with on liveries.

 

[fburton]

So why is it so terrible to expect an animal to stand tied up without moving and most importantly - not to be worried by being tied up and not moving.

Not terrible at all. I took the thread to be about whether to tie a horse to an unbreakable solid object or a safely breakable one, not about training. There are arguments for both options. I happen to prefer the latter.

I also tie mine to the ground some times. Really quite handy.

Hurray for Option C!

 

[poiuytrewq]

Depends on the horse and the situation! I split baler twine so its thinner and breaks more easily. Better still i use Equipings, although i do tend to loose these!
I'd rather just loop my horses rope over something which i often do if there is no where suitable as he then thinks he's tied up and stays put!
At work i recently tied on to baler twine and he freaked out, the twine did not snap for a crazy time (seemed like an eternity) but he'd pulled everything so tight there was nothing i could do. The clip on the lead rope was the breaking point. It was actually quite scary!

 

[Candygirl14]

I have 3 of these around my yard https://www.amazon.com/Blocker-10-340-Tie-Ring-II/dp/B003RCOAVS, and they have worked well on a consistent panicky horse which pulled back on "normal tie up rings/baler twine"

 

[applecart14]

Depends on why you want to do it...

Years ago a farrier tied a horse to rope strung across concrete posts and the horse put its head down came up and panicked bolted dragging the posts breaking two fences then galloped down a track and straight thru a wooden gate splitting it in half. ended up with horrendous injuries the skin on its chest hung down to its knees. it did make a full recovery thankgod. recently my horse was tied to twine which didnt break and ended up with poll strain and a broken leather headcollar. ive never used nylon headcollars because they dont break. i think my horse may have broken his neck had he been in one such was his panick. when he started displaying neuro signs i was guilt ridden even though i had the physio out within days. the vet said as it happens it was nothing to do with that just old age but he may have been being kind! will always be splitting twine now.

 

[Palindrome]

Always used twine in France (15+ years riding in lots of riding schools). Was told it is good practice.

 

[Cortez]

So, what do people do when their horse starts pulling back? Do they just stand there and wait for the twine to break (or not)? What is their reaction?

 

[ester]

It depends if she is doing it in fear because of aforementioned traffic issues or not, I'm remembering as it isn't a frequent occurrence, usually if within grabbing distance just ask her to walk on, if not grabbing distance a sharp ' ah stand' has the desire effect, she knows what that means.
If it is a fear issue it is usually pre-empted as will have already noticed the large rattly horse lorry that has the potential to set her off and will be stood there telling her to stand and she will, while shaking!

As I said might have tried some alternative approaches if I'd been on the forum years ago, as it is she doesn't leave home anymore so not really an issue.

Interestingly Frank likes to sit on the end of the rope, but has never pulled back ever, I think his head just gets a bit heavy!

 

[Palindrome]

So, what do people do when their horse starts pulling back? Do they just stand there and wait for the twine to break (or not)? What is their reaction?

I go "whoaa" and grab the rope. Current mare is reasonnably smart so starts to wander off if she knows she can break the tie.

 

[_HP_]

So, what do people do when their horse starts pulling back? Do they just stand there and wait for the twine to break (or not)? What is their reaction?

Walk round the back of it and poke its bum 😀

 

[Paint Me Proud]

I always strip the baler twine down to just a few strands, recently found fresh twine on my tie ring and removed it, stripped it and put it back up.

I hate those heavy nylon headcolars..it would take a heck of a lot of pressure to break one...

A horse I know was wearing a nylon headcollar and had been attached directly to the tie ring. It paniced and pulled back so violently that eyelets in the headcollar at the buckle ripped right through and the headcollar and horse parted company. So they might not be as strong as you think.