KautoStar1
Well-Known Member
VOTE UKIP ??? are you insane JM ????
UKIP - are the party for repeal
- Thread starter Judgemental
- Start date
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Clearly my point has not been fully understood and the subtlety thereof.
There is no way UKIP are ever going to command a majority in the H of C, indeed if they even muster a dozen MPs, if any will be most surprising.
However they will take a large number of Conservative voters with them at any General Election.
As a consequence Call-Me-Dave and Co have to recognise the very real haemorrhaging of votes, which will let Milly and Co in the door with a large majority.
But Call-Me-Dave and Co have two years in which to address the Hunting issue to a greater or lesser extent, using the mechanism of the Statutory Instrument.
It's very simple, The Secretary of State places before the H of C amendments – NOW. I emphasis NOW. TODAY, nothing like the present.
Whether or not the amendments are passed or successful is neither here nor there, at least Call-Me-Dave and Co can say to the rank and file, we tried.
Those of the Repeal or Nothing camp are a wholly lost and wasted cause. A nice pipe dream.
Last night's vote concerning the failure to incorporate the vote on a referendum on Europe in the Gracious Speech, tells all concerned that they are in trouble. Farage has made his point.
However a move using the Statutory Instrument on the Hunting Act now will be seen as a tangible action to combat the Farage bandwagon.
Farage will promise anything and everything and knows he does not have to deliver.
The rank and file of hunting will in many cases be seduced by Farage at a General Election, largely due to inaction todate. Coupled to his image in his cords, very nice tweed jackets and coats. Rydale Yorkshire cap (well it might not be Rydale nevertheless of type) and the jolly pint in the local. The old BFSS tie.
Yes I know it's a Coalition but for reasons that are simply too complex to describe here, I think the Libdems will say, “oh anything for a quiet life, we might get one of our sacred cows in return if we support a minor amendment to the Hunting Act under the Statutory Instrument and of course our core vote in the west will recognise that”. In the West Country that will have more of an impact than might appear on the surface.
Herne, tactics tactics, perhaps I should come an run the show!
There is no way UKIP are ever going to command a majority in the H of C, indeed if they even muster a dozen MPs, if any will be most surprising.
However they will take a large number of Conservative voters with them at any General Election.
As a consequence Call-Me-Dave and Co have to recognise the very real haemorrhaging of votes, which will let Milly and Co in the door with a large majority.
But Call-Me-Dave and Co have two years in which to address the Hunting issue to a greater or lesser extent, using the mechanism of the Statutory Instrument.
It's very simple, The Secretary of State places before the H of C amendments – NOW. I emphasis NOW. TODAY, nothing like the present.
Whether or not the amendments are passed or successful is neither here nor there, at least Call-Me-Dave and Co can say to the rank and file, we tried.
Those of the Repeal or Nothing camp are a wholly lost and wasted cause. A nice pipe dream.
Last night's vote concerning the failure to incorporate the vote on a referendum on Europe in the Gracious Speech, tells all concerned that they are in trouble. Farage has made his point.
However a move using the Statutory Instrument on the Hunting Act now will be seen as a tangible action to combat the Farage bandwagon.
Farage will promise anything and everything and knows he does not have to deliver.
The rank and file of hunting will in many cases be seduced by Farage at a General Election, largely due to inaction todate. Coupled to his image in his cords, very nice tweed jackets and coats. Rydale Yorkshire cap (well it might not be Rydale nevertheless of type) and the jolly pint in the local. The old BFSS tie.
Yes I know it's a Coalition but for reasons that are simply too complex to describe here, I think the Libdems will say, “oh anything for a quiet life, we might get one of our sacred cows in return if we support a minor amendment to the Hunting Act under the Statutory Instrument and of course our core vote in the west will recognise that”. In the West Country that will have more of an impact than might appear on the surface.
Herne, tactics tactics, perhaps I should come an run the show!
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JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
How on earth did you manage that - I wasn't even IN the UK in the '70s!! My 'career path' in the UK would have been totally invisible until the early '90s!
Herne doesn't NEED my defence - he's about the only other person on this forum who actually understands how politics WORK! And no - UKIP ISN'T a wake-up call - when people like that brain-dead female Tory say SHE wants to join them - hell - that puts them even further down in my estimation!
Yes - I'll push boundaries when so much rubbish is talked. IF people really want repeal, then a Tory Government with a decent majority is the ONLY way it can happen! If they don't care too much, then it doesn't matter (to hunting) which party gets in!
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
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Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
J_M,
"By Call-Me-Dave because she wants to join UKIP."
Nadine Dorries, last night, TWICE corrected channel 4, when she said that joining UKIP could be an option for the future. She flatly denied saying that she wanted to.
Alec.
"By Call-Me-Dave because she wants to join UKIP."
Nadine Dorries, last night, TWICE corrected channel 4, when she said that joining UKIP could be an option for the future. She flatly denied saying that she wanted to.
Alec.
madmav
Well-Known Member
For FS, don't talk up that flaming idiot Farage. I quite liked him when he was a figure of fun, but oh my days, he is not to be taken seriously as a political contender.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Personally I have a wholly bipartisan view.
However in my assesment Mr Farage and his party UKIP are the most potent political force since WWII.
They will fundamentally distort the voting patterns and whilst their ability to send MPs to Parliament is still in doubt, they will take many votes from the Conservatives and will provide Mr Miliband with the key to Downing Street.
Herne
Well-Known Member
I will leave it there and anticipate, enter stage right, perhaps - Herne. Perish the thought I should suggest enter stage leftThat may be presumptious of me however the mention of the Statutory Instrument normally causes him to break cover.
JM, my problem has never been with the Statutory Instrument - it has always been with your misinterpretation of what can be done with it. You keep on referring to amending all sorts of aspects of the Act with it, whereas in fact, as I have been telling you for the past several years, the only thing that it can used for is to vary the exempt clauses contained within in the schedule.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Yes I quite agree Herne that you have been peddling this fudge and fog as to the use of the Statutory Instrument for a number of years and frankly you are talking complete and utter rubbish.
The Statutory Instrument can be used by the Secretary of State for any purpose in the Hunting Act 2004.
You and others have done a great job 'holding the covert up'. But you have all now run out of road and instead of this drivel about Repeal or Nothing, go for the Statutory Instrument.
The Tories will never command a majority in the H of C and UKIP have effectively become their outright nemesis.
For the record, yet again the Act states, as follows. I challange you to tell me where the Statutory Instrument only applies to Exempt Hunting. It a very convienient and misguided 'excuse' to keep peddling Repeal or Nothing.
Subordinate legislation
An order of the Secretary of State under this Act—
(a)shall be made by statutory instrument,
(b)may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament,
(c)may make provision which applies generally or only in specified circumstances or for specified purposes,
(d)may make different provision for different circumstances or purposes, and
(e)may make transitional, consequential and incidental provision.
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CracklinRosie
Well-Known Member
Yes, in an entirely hitleresque way! A UKIP government would make me vote for Scottish independence!
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
me too, and I'm not for Independence!
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
The sudden popularity of a contemporary political party that is not in power, is normally a direct reflection upon the party or parties in power and the overall dissatisfaction with them by the electorate.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Correct, and how political parties, being as aware as they are of public opinion, and failing to make any attempt to rectify such dire disdain, is beyond me.
Alec.
CracklinRosie
Well-Known Member
Contemporary, more like Draconian! Not to mention that their figures do not stand up to scrutiny! Just like any other political party, they will promise the earth and deliver misery!
oakash
Well-Known Member
Well, I've enjoyed reading this forum; but I am a little surprised that no-one has mentioned the obvious truth behind the UKIP debate. It seems very unlikely that Labour would get into power again: lets face it, in broad terms the British public are surely not THAT stupid?
What on earth makes pro-europe people think that we need Brussells bureaucrats to rule us? Historically, it has taken us nigh on a thousand years to become independent, after all. All this talk about tactical voting is the sort of politics that has made many of us despair of polititians as a bunch of crooks. If you believe in something, then vote for it. I believe UKIP will be able to take sufficient support away from the Conservatives so that their only option will be to go into coalition with them - in that case we will get the Repeal we want. Remember UKIP was initially just a pressure group, and if the Tories do what they promised then we will also come out of our disastrous association with the EU, and be able to make our own laws for the benefit of the people of this country.
What on earth makes pro-europe people think that we need Brussells bureaucrats to rule us? Historically, it has taken us nigh on a thousand years to become independent, after all. All this talk about tactical voting is the sort of politics that has made many of us despair of polititians as a bunch of crooks. If you believe in something, then vote for it. I believe UKIP will be able to take sufficient support away from the Conservatives so that their only option will be to go into coalition with them - in that case we will get the Repeal we want. Remember UKIP was initially just a pressure group, and if the Tories do what they promised then we will also come out of our disastrous association with the EU, and be able to make our own laws for the benefit of the people of this country.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't bank on it.
I'll make a prediction. The Conservatives will poach the UKIP voters, promise a referendum, or complete removal from the EU, just for the sake of the votes, then they'll do as they, and Labour, and for all we know UKIP would do, and renege on any previous promises, and then in 10 years time, we'll be exactly where we are now, with an EU which has been promising reform since inception, with politicians finding ever more plausible reasons for their lethargy, and I'll be in a home for the bewildered.
What we need is a revolution, a proper one, not one of these "Would you mind awfully" style of revolt, but an "Off with their heads" one. That's how the French sorted out the parasitic element of their Society.
Alec.
Spook
Well-Known Member
Or a renaisance, something more positive and artistic? or are we in such a financial mess that this is impossible?.... In that case is a revolution is inevitable?.
VoR
Well-Known Member
Have we not ALL seen small parties (and the LibDems from time-to-time), punching well above their weight in local elections, shouting their emergence as 'real contenders for government' or at the very least as 'a real alternative to the 'big-two'', only to disappear at the general elections? The local elections have registered the protest vote against the political direction the country has gone in and hopefully woken up the Conservatives.
The biggest danger we face is that UKIP split the Conservative vote in a general election and purely through a protest we end up, by default, with a Labour government again..............scares the hell out of me!
The biggest danger we face is that UKIP split the Conservative vote in a general election and purely through a protest we end up, by default, with a Labour government again..............scares the hell out of me!
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Which ever party gets in step with public opinion, will be the one most likely to succeed. It sounds rather obvious, doesn't it?
Alec.
Alec.
Herne
Well-Known Member
Sigh. JM, I have told you this many times before and I will now do so again.
The bit that you have quoted comes from Part 3, Clause 14.
The relevant clause that tells you where the Statutory Instrument only applies to Exempt Hunting is in Part 1, Clause 2 (2).
And I quote: The Secretary of State may by order amend Schedule 1 so as to vary a class of exempt hunting. (My underlining)
So, Clause 2(2) says WHAT the SoS can do by order. Clause 14 sets out HOW the order can be implemented.
As I have pointed out to you before, if your interpretation of Clause 14 were correct, then Clause 2(2) would be pointless.
Why would Clause 2(2) specify that he could vary a specific bit if Clause 14 then said that he could vary any of it? That would not make sense.
What do you think that Clause 2(2) means or is for under your definition?
Isbister
Well-Known Member
As has been pointed out in various posts, the most UKIP can hope to achieve - regardless of how attractive some of their policies might appear - is to split the Conservative vote. At the moment, opinion polls suggest that Labour will win the next election. That alone ought to be the focus of concern of those (that includes me) who wish to preserve some semblance of proper hunting in this country. The current law is far from ideal but is preferable to the situation that will prevail under an incoming Labour government.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
I have been studying the leader of the party and I wonder if he has a case of Strabismus? In which case one wonders if his political intentions are in two different directions?
Isbister
Well-Known Member
I've absolutely no idea what Strabismus might be, but it sounds both painful and somehow acutely embarrassing - Mr Farage, I feel very sorry for you.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Stabismus is where one's eyes point in different directions.
Isbister
Well-Known Member
So he's really a political chameleon, then?
marianne1981
Well-Known Member
As an honest question... do you seriously think (with all due respect) that you have any hope of repeal, regardless of political party?
Isbister
Well-Known Member
No. UKIP haven't a cat in hell's chance, and the Conservatives don't care, so who else is there?
My personal view is that it would be wrong to make repeal a big issue again because all that would do would be to stir up the antis. One good thing (perhaps the only good thing) about the Hunting Act was that it took some of the heat out of the situation and the anti lobby moved on to other matters. Things have blown over and settled down a bit now and people have a choice of living with the law, imperfect as it is, or of quietly overlooking its more unreasonable requirements. Not that I am advocating breaking the law, mind.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
If a repeal took place or partial repeal took place, I personally would not want to be anywhere near any pack of hounds. The reason, it will become a 'battlefield' between Antis, the Hunt and it's staff/followers, coupled to the Police seperating one side from the other.
That said, the so called Hunt Monitors who are stilll causing a great deal of trouble on any given hunting day, for those lawfully hunting a trail, up and down the country and have to be curbed. Their interference is unwarranted and should be made a criminal offence, as to harrasement and stalking.
The law needs to be more fairly balanced.
Until that happens there will be constant calls for repeal.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
No one is going to win an election based on a promise to repeal the hunting act, it wouldn't be nationally popular if a party in power did repeal it either and I think it is old news to many so can't see an in power party wanting to upset the applecart.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
I believe the current flurry of activity is due to the fact, we are only a year away from a General Election. The Conservatives have been told by various large traditional doners that their 'giving' is conditional upon a repeal.