Un shod brood mares, diet advice please

ribbons said:
. But boy you guys don't like to advise do you, dictate only. No wonder your called the Taliban.
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Ribbons you wrote this

So i'll just carry on as normal and accept its the way she is, to be honest she only has to walk up and down the drive once a day so no real problem, just thought i'd investigate the newer opinions in case something had emerged that i'd missed. It seems not.
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before any of the Taliban had even responded. I think you need to look at what and how you were writing to get the responses you have got. Your posts did not read as if they were written by someone with an open mind, rather as someone who had already decided what they were going to do. You share a good proportion of the blame for the responses which have made you so angry.
 
This has amused me while having a quick break from the yard. I have a brood mare too who is footy on stoney ground. She is out on good grass and has an appropriate diet for the time of year and what she is doing. The whole barefoot diet baffles me....you want your horses to be as natural as possible but the whole barefoot diet seems to restrict the natural feeding of horses, which is to eat good grass?

It seems more effort than its worth having a barefoot horse.....stupid diet changes....transitioning....hoof boots (thats just weird?) ect all seems far more unnatural than just having shoes on and letting a horse be a horse?

Also the fact ive been told my horse is not barefoot is stupid too....she has no shoes on! If thats not barefoot I dont know what is? Maybe I should go buy some boots....

Sorry to hijack....mini rant
 
badgermyers said:
The whole barefoot diet baffles me....you want your horses to be as natural as possible but the whole barefoot diet seems to restrict the natural feeding of horses, which is to eat good grass?
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There is no barefoot diet, there is only a good diet. Many horses need no diet change at all to go barefoot.

Horses did not evolve to eat "good grass" they evolved to eat scrub. Good grass is not the natural feed of horses, high fibre/low sugar plants are. Good grass causes many, but not all, barefoot horses to feel stones.

I don't want my horses to be as natural as possible. I want them to be as healthy as possible for the unnatural jobs, hunting and dressage, that I keep them to do. Barefoot for me has nothing to do with natural and everything to do with healthy and with not spending my money on unnecessary strips of metal.
 
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badgermyers said:
you want your horses to be as natural as possible but the whole barefoot diet seems to restrict the natural feeding of horses, which is to eat good grass?
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Lawks.

I think this misconception is the source of so many hoof problems. Where on earth has this belief that horses are supposed to eat good grass come from?
 
Exactly, I THINK it is probably the flat footed etc etc. Not I KNOW it is. Yes I was saying what I thought, asking for any different opinions, you are carefully avoiding the fact that these thoughts were voiced before being offered any alternatives. Actually you are deliberately saying I have claimed the problems are inherited, refused to alter anything and am happy to keep a horse in constant pain all after receiving advice to the contrary. When if you read the thread from the start that is far from accurate.
You actually seem more interested in trying to make me out to be a ignorant stubborn cruel owner, than helping with the situation.
 
By good grass I dont mean sugar. I mean horses will eat the best grass they can find in the space they have available. They will eat other plants too so as they reach their dry matter content. Why is good always put with sugar? They eat the best of what they can get to, they dont go ''oh look this grass is poor and much better for my feet ill eat that'' in the wild do they :/

Might just be my experience but most 'barefoot' people do more harm than good by messing
 
badgermyers said:
They eat the best of what they can get to, they dont go ''oh look this grass is poor and much better for my feet ill eat that'' in the wild do they :/
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Well actually my Shetland used to do exactly that. While the big boys were eating the clover, he would be under the electric fence down a ditch eating the tops of rough grass higher than his own belly. Very low sugar and high fibre stuff. Of course very few horses get their choice of twelve acres of unfertlized hill meadow. Most of them seem now to be on what most people call "good grass" - lush green ryegrass.
 
I guess each to their own. I just dont like the barefoot Taliban. I find them rude, opinionated and think they are better than everyone else. Most of the ones I know just battle footsore horses, trying to hack and obsessing over feeding. Everyone else I know has happy horses, competes and generally has an easier time.
 
badgermyers said:
Might just be my experience but most 'barefoot' people do more harm than good by messing
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You've definitely met the wrong ones ;). Most of the ones I talk to have been responsible for returning to full work horses that vets and farriers have recommended should either be pensioned off or put down.
 
badgermyers said:
By good grass I don’t mean sugar. I mean horses will eat the best grass they can find in the space they have available. They will eat other plants too so as they reach their dry matter content. Why is good always put with sugar? They eat the best of what they can get to, they don’t go ''oh look this grass is poor and much better for my feet ill eat that'' in the wild do they :/
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No, but then in their natural habitat the sugary grass simply wouldn't have been there. Of course they will head for the tastiest bits - if you let a child loose in Sainsburies they ain't going to head for the vegetable aisle ;).

Might just be my experience but most 'barefoot' people do more harm than good by messing...

I just dont like the barefoot Taliban. I find them rude, opinionated and think they are better than everyone else
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That's an unnecessarily abrasive thing to say. I could say that the people I know who shoe all know enough about feet to fill a postage stamp, but that would be rude.
 
cptrayes said:
You've definitely met the wrong ones ;). Most of the ones I talk to have been responsible for returning to full work horses that vets and farriers have recommended should either be pensioned off or put down.
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Like I say I can only go from experience. I am not shooting it down, ive just only seen it cause more issues than good. The only thing I dont like is how the barefoot people go about trying to promote what they do and how they assume every horse can be barefoot.
 
whisp&willow said:
you cant beat a bit of Scottish hillside..! :cool:
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How high are you? I'm 1100 feet and it really helps. The season is 4 weeks shorter at either end and my boys are out 24/7 now where 5 miles away down on the plain I would not dare to turn out my lami risk full time yet. I also got rid of the sheep I used to borrow and let it go wild. It looks a total mess, but I think it's perfect :D
 
badgermyers said:
Like I say I can only go from experience. I am not shooting it down, ive just only seen it cause more issues than good. The only thing I dont like is how the barefoot people go about trying to promote what they do and how they assume every horse can be barefoot.
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Well we don't do either on this board. We just answer people's questions. They don't always like what we write though :)

It is a shame you have not seen barefoot done properly.
 
TwoStroke said:
No, but then in their natural habitat the sugary grass simply wouldn't have been there. Of course they will head for the tastiest bits - if you let a child loose in Sainsburies they ain't going to head for the vegetable aisle ;).



That's an unnecessarily abrasive thing to say. I could say that the people I know who shoe all know enough about feet to fill a postage stamp, but that would be rude.
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Only going from experience, I too know people who shoe that fit your description but they dont go preaching to others about how to look after their horses feet.

I understand feet, I understand some horses can go barefoot, some simply cannot when in work. I compete, I need shoes and studs. Some who dont compete do not and thats fine. I understand some horses have good feet and balance and some do not. Some can come with issues barefoot and some cannot.

I just find every barefoot enthusiast is positive that ALL horses can go barefoot...
 
badgermyers said:
I guess each to their own. I just dont like the barefoot Taliban. I find them rude, opinionated and think they are better than everyone else. Most of the ones I know just battle footsore horses, trying to hack and obsessing over feeding. Everyone else I know has happy horses, competes and generally has an easier time.
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Who are these horrible people? No-one on this board is battling a footsore horse that I know of.

Everyone else you know has happy horses? You must go to different show venues than I do, because in summer around a quarter of the shod horses I see warming up and competing are unsound.


Rude and opinionated. Pots? Kettles?
 
cptrayes said:
How high are you? I'm 1100 feet and it really helps. The season is 4 weeks shorter at either end and my boys are out 24/7 now where 5 miles away down on the plain I would not dare to turn out my lami risk full time yet. I also got rid of the sheep I used to borrow and let it go wild. It looks a total mess, but I think it's perfect :D
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im not sure: i'd have to look up the o.s map! one field is higher than the other, and it feels bloody high when you are hiking up the lane!

they have not been fertilised other than horse- self fertilisation for a long long time, and there is a huge variety of plants and herbs across the sward. they seem to do very well on it anyway!

at the moment my youngster ( who was footy, with flat soles... but has improved thanks to cutting out molasses and adding minerals ;) ) is not on my fields, but at a friends, and they have just moved onto GOOD GRASS... she will be coming in for a portion of each day, and is in right now as a matter of fact.

i can only go by what o have seen in Willow- she is clearly affected by the sugars in grass/feed, where as my other two are not it would seem. :cool:
 
badgermyers said:
I just find every barefoot enthusiast is positive that ALL horses can go barefoot...
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I believe all horses are born barefoot, and that that is the default - not shoeing.

Can every horse cope barefoot in the modern livery yard system? No. I don't think you'll find many barefooters who truly think otherwise. Sometimes the circumstances are just too difficult.

But this is all way OT.
 
I am not on about at shows, I dont know everyone personally and I am not on about this thread. Its more a general feeling I have got from experience.

I am open minded and willing to learn more about the barefoot stuff, but without it feeling like a religion (if you get me?).

I would be interested in the science behind it. I am doing a dissertation on foot balance in competing showjumpers and the shoes they wear and correlating this to lower limb injuries. Trying to find a link between footbalance and the shoes they have to suit this and injuries. I was also going to try and find a barefoot showjumper (going to be difficult at the level I want to use) and look at the same thing for a reference and something to talk about.

I am interested in this, I just find its generally quite forceful (not on this thread)
 
badgermyers said:
I understand feet, I understand some horses can go barefoot, some simply cannot when in work.
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In your understanding of feet, which ones can't go barefoot? And have those that "just can't" had their diet tuned, or was that just too much effort and it was easier to nail on some steel?

As I said before, I accept that there are a small number of horses which cannot work barefoot, but I cannot accept that any individual horse is one of those until it has been fed a high fibre low sugar minerally balanced diet.


I compete, I need shoes and studs. Some who dont compete do not and thats fine.
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Some who do compete don't need shoes and studs. Me for one of many.
 
cptrayes said:
In your understanding of feet, which ones can't go barefoot? And have those that "just can't" had their diet tuned, or was that just too much effort and it was easier to nail on some steel?

As I said before, I accept that there are a small number of horses which cannot work barefoot, but I cannot accept that any individual horse is one of those until it has been fed a high fibre low sugar minerally balanced diet.




Some who do compete don't need shoes and studs. Me for one of many.
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What do you compete doing? My horse was unshod for a good while when I got him but he just slipped over all the time! Now he has a full set he hardly ever slipped and appears more balanced. I need studs when showjumping on grass, especially in the jump off when turning
 
badgermyers said:
I am not on about at shows, I dont know everyone personally and I am not on about this thread. Its more a general feeling I have got from experience.

I am open minded and willing to learn more about the barefoot stuff, but without it feeling like a religion (if you get me?).

I would be interested in the science behind it.
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The first bit of science behind it has just been published. The numbers are small but it was a properly done study. It showed that 7 weeks of shoeing not only altered the hoof pastern axis for the worse (no surprise) but measurably reduced the size of the hoof at the coronet band. Search for threads I have started if you want the pointer to the abstract.

There is no scientifically valid evidence for shoeing that I can find.

The overwhelming amount of information is simply anecdotal.
 
cptrayes said:
The first bit of science behind it has just been published. The numbers are small but it was a properly done study. It showed that 7 weeks of shoeing not only altered the hoof pastern axis for the worse (no surprise) but measurably reduced the size of the hoof at the coronet band. Search for threads I have started if you want the pointer to the abstract.

There is no scientifically valid evidence for shoeing that I can find.

The overwhelming amount of information is simply anecdotal.
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Thank you I shall look at that as will be useful for my dissertation. Like I say I am not shooting the barefoot thing down, its just the way some people go about it. I would prefer to learn and make my own decisions.
 
badgermyers said:
What do you compete doing? My horse was unshod for a good while when I got him but he just slipped over all the time! Now he has a full set he hardly ever slipped and appears more balanced. I need studs when showjumping on grass, especially in the jump off when turning
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I competed 5 horses BE including three complete beginners. Two to Novice affiliated eventing (SJ to 1m 15) the others to BE90/100. I did not have the issues with slipping that you have had with your horse. I ran whatever the ground conditions. I now hunt a horse and jump 6 ft hedges with him. No hunters stud, which always makes me laugh at the insistence of other people that horses need studs.
 
Thank you twostroke, that is the sort of response I hoped for. Yes it's obvious she has different needs to the others, it's why I posted.
Pasture is far from just grass, it is old fashioned pasture with many other plants but there is lots of it.
It's ridge and furrow in the main but with little change in the actual surface other than hardcore in gateways of which there are several. She comes up a very stoney track every day to the yard but otherwise has little surface variation.
Thanks for your thoughts, I will investigate offering a greater variety of surfaces.
Just to throw something else out there to consider. When in work racing or hunting she had virtually no grass although I can't guarantee her diet was low sugar. Since coming home but before breeding she had very limited grazing on very poor land due to my location at the time. I have always fed high fibre low cereal diets. She has always been footy on stoney ground without shoes. Since being a brood mare on good grass she is no better, no worse. Hence my request for advice from all camps, whatever the opinion. From those that consider its the way she is to those that believe it can be changed with diet and environment. Mostly it's been
given generously and politely and
has been much appreciated.
 
Thats interesting! May inbox you when it comes to my dissertation as dont know anyone else jumping to the level I need. As for correlating injuries, its a long shot but I wanted a bit more of a medical aspect to my project not sure my findings will be useful and may all be coincidence but its interesting at least. Thanks for your input I enjoyed it and much more open minded than my past experiences!

Thanks again
 
No problem. There is someone competing to Intermediate who would make a better study for you than me. Let me know when the time comes and I'll try and get her name for you.

or both of us, I geniunely do jump 6ft hedges, it's not just a boast, I have the most fabulous hedge hopper ever born :D
 
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