Unaffiliated vs affiliated & calendar oversaturation

[RachelFerd]

I thought the Adam Cromarty opinion piece in the H&H this week (https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/plus/opinion/adam-cromarty-big-money-unaffiliated-shows-774625) was interesting - with BS seemingly facing some of the same challenges that are plaguing eventing at the moment with the rise of unaffiliated competitions offering bigger money and oversaturating/undermining the affiliated calendar.

I've harped on about the topic quite a bit, but I do think there are huge risks here for future of organised equestrian sport if we don't collectively get a handle of building supportive competition structures... food for thought!

 

[ycbm]

The affiliated organisations have, imo, charged too much for too long. I got in a big argument on the BE forum 15 years ago where I said how I thought it would go if they didn't stop racking up the fees. I'm not sorry to be right. Why should BS and BE competitions and BD tests cost £s more than unaffiliated, for every single round/test in the case of BS/BD?

IMO, The vast majority of competitors don't aspire to national championships or even regionals, they just want a fun day out locally with the chance of getting their entry fee back. The affiliated organisations need to recognise that if they want to survive.
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[LEC]

Well if the poor eventer wasn’t stuffed every way because they won’t do a unified membership then what do they expect? The 6 month membership is crap value for money.

We have amazing unaff round here jumping for cash up to 1.20m. Why would I join BS? All BS course designers for unaff as well.
All the eventers round here do the unaff SJing because it’s good quality.

BS still gives same prize money as it did 16 years ago for a BN but entries have gone up by £10…..

my final thought is the sjers still join BS but you find them doing the unaff as well on older diesel horses who have topped out at 1m.

 

[Cragrat]

To compete affiliated, we pay a rider membership, a horse membership, and increased competition entry fees. The competition organsiers also have to pay a percentage to be affiliated.

I appreciate there are some advantages in safety checks, National standards and National championships etc, but I'm not sure it justifies the extra costs.

 

[Bernster]

Just starting to look at what’s on and there are loads of activities coming up for me. Unaff, small heights. I don’t do it for qualifications, it is a fun day out. Even if you’re interested in qualifications and champs, there seem to be a fair few things of interest at unaff. Admittedly, some venues may not be as swish as affiliated ones but I wouldn’t go if I didn’t think they were safe and well run , and quite a few run both.

 

[little_critter]

To compete affiliated, we pay a rider membership, a horse membership, and increased competition entry fees. The competition organsiers also have to pay a percentage to be affiliated.

I appreciate there are some advantages in safety checks, National standards and National championships etc, but I'm not sure it justifies the extra costs.

Not sure about BS and BE but BD train the judges and produce the tests that unaff comps use. I know that judges pay for training, I don’t know if what they pay fully covers the cost or whether it’s subsidised by the membership. Ditto there must be significant running costs associated with having an office and staff (which if you run a sizeable membership organisation is required)

 

[Jango]

I genuinely think the national bodies need to join up for some sort of 'Horse Sport UK' if they want to survive and flourish. You could massively reduce the admin burden (and therefore costs) by having one database, less staff etc. have different member levels e.g. 1 sport grassroots, multisport grassroots, 1 sport higher levels and multisport higher levels. I think a lot of grassroots amateurs (myself included) like to do a bit of everything, mostly locally and for fun. So to join/compete in all 3 is prohibitive. You are double charged by the national bodies (membership for yourself and your horse plus entry fees are higher) and the benefits don't really outweigh the costs for most people.

Also cost of living is rocketing at the moment and only getting worse, were also coming out of a pandemic. I think many people might be cutting down and changing from aff to unaff is an easy way to significantly reduce costs while still enjoying your horse.

 

[ycbm]

I genuinely think the national bodies need to join up for some sort of 'Horse Sport UK' if they want to survive and flourish. You could massively reduce the admin burden (and therefore costs) by having one database, less staff etc. have different member levels e.g. 1 sport grassroots, multisport grassroots, 1 sport higher levels and multisport higher levels. I think a lot of grassroots amateurs (myself included) like to do a bit of everything, mostly locally and for fun. So to join/compete in all 3 is prohibitive. You are double charged by the national bodies (membership for yourself and your horse plus entry fees are higher) and the benefits don't really outweigh the costs for most people.

This is exactly how it was 30 years ago. It didn't need to change.

 

[ycbm]

Are grass roots members paying through their fees for national team training and competing? If so, then grass roots members are voting with their feet not to do that by going unaffiliated.
.

 

[muddy_grey]

There is nothing left in Kent anymore. We have one affiliated venue within an hour (winter only) and it is crap. I am not currently competing, but not sure of bs is worth it unless I can find the time and childcare for stay away shows.

 

[Snowfilly]

To compete affiliated, we pay a rider membership, a horse membership, and increased competition entry fees. The competition organsiers also have to pay a percentage to be affiliated.

I appreciate there are some advantages in safety checks, National standards and National championships etc, but I'm not sure it justifies the extra costs.

Lots of us have got no interest in National or regional comps or leagues; no money to attend them and no ability to travel a few hundred miles to go anyway. There’s a good lot of unaffiliated course builders round me, and I’ve been jumping at shows in farmers fields in roped off rings for enough decades that I’m not precious about needing a surface and a BS standard track. I know all the local course builders and the 90% of them who can be trusted to build something safe.

Plus, there’s more prize money unaffiliated at the lower levels. BS just doesn’t have anything to offer until you’re routinely jumping 1.10 or so and looking to progress.

I think it’s the same with BD, my closest venue runs UA with very good judges up to medium so why bother affiliating unless you’re after points?

 

[LEC]

Lots of us have got no interest in National or regional comps or leagues; no money to attend them and no ability to travel a few hundred miles to go anyway. There’s a good lot of unaffiliated course builders round me, and I’ve been jumping at shows in farmers fields in roped off rings for enough decades that I’m not precious about needing a surface and a BS standard track. I know all the local course builders and the 90% of them who can be trusted to build something safe.

Plus, there’s more prize money unaffiliated at the lower levels. BS just doesn’t have anything to offer until you’re routinely jumping 1.10 or so and looking to progress.

I think it’s the same with BD, my closest venue runs UA with very good judges up to medium so why bother affiliating unless you’re after points?

I came 3rd at a National Championship BD and won £10, a hoof oil brush and a mug.

 

[LEC]

Are grass roots members paying through their fees for national team training and competing? If so, then grass roots members are voting with their feet not to do that by going unaffiliated.
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Youth teams BE are subsidised as they are charged an additional £25 per pony to take part in the youth programme. Any training is paid for by parents. The youth teams are also not supported to travel to champs hence the end of season fund raiser at Aston le Walls. Brexit has also had a big impact. Senior teams are supported by lottery. BE used to put £200k into the youth teams but I imagine they don't now as simply don't have the money for it, so parents need to fund their kids dreams.

 

[LEC]

I genuinely think the national bodies need to join up for some sort of 'Horse Sport UK' if they want to survive and flourish. You could massively reduce the admin burden (and therefore costs) by having one database, less staff etc. have different member levels e.g. 1 sport grassroots, multisport grassroots, 1 sport higher levels and multisport higher levels. I think a lot of grassroots amateurs (myself included) like to do a bit of everything, mostly locally and for fun. So to join/compete in all 3 is prohibitive. You are double charged by the national bodies (membership for yourself and your horse plus entry fees are higher) and the benefits don't really outweigh the costs for most people.

Also cost of living is rocketing at the moment and only getting worse, were also coming out of a pandemic. I think many people might be cutting down and changing from aff to unaff is an easy way to significantly reduce costs while still enjoying your horse.

This is how the French system works. There is no unaff. There is RC level for low levels and national above - much cheaper entries, prize money and breeding prizes. The French affiliation fee is very reasonable as well.

 

[Snowfilly]

I came 3rd at a National Championship BD and won £10, a hoof oil brush and a mug.

That’s terrible! I won an UA 80cm at a show a couple of years back, won £20 and a cup, as well as a money off voucher for the photographer who was covering that day.

Local BS doesn’t even give out rosettes down the line unless there’s a load of entries forward.

 

[Cragrat]

i'm not a showjumper, but I would hazard a guess that Sj is possibly one of the easier to standardise whilst remaining unaffilaited . I do feel dressage needs some sort of standardiising - it is too easy for judging to become so subjective that it becomes meaningless unless you stick to the same judge. Who would train judges not to give everyone 8's just to be encouraging?
Similarly with eventing - the best UA courses, in our area at least, are those that are built to BE standard. At least you have an idea what standard your horse needs to be at for each level, and MER's do at least try to reduce people tackling courses they aren't ready for.

I do like the sound of the French system, or some sort of all inclusive Equestrian Sport body. The current system is definitely unsustainable.

 

[LEC]

I do like the sound of the French system, or some sort of all inclusive Equestrian Sport body. The current system is definitely unsustainable.

there is also only one entry system…. Imagine that! Every horse on a single database. Horses without breeding recorded are not allowed to compete either above a certain level. Being french it’s a bureaucratic system but then again look at all the staff the 3 disciplines, BHS, BRC all have now.

 

[teapot]

there is also only one entry system…. Imagine that! Every horse on a single database. Horses without breeding recorded are not allowed to compete either above a certain level. Being french it’s a bureaucratic system but then again look at all the staff the 3 disciplines, BHS, BRC all have now.

Not forgetting RDA and PC too! There's a lot of perhaps unnecessary spending by these bodies...

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm definitely on the side of bringing everything together - I really think that the current situation is unsustainable - for us as competitors, but also for sport governing bodies and for competition centres too. Nevermind the wastefulness of the current system. Going to write something much more considered for the BEF once I've mulled it over some more...

 

[Pippity]

Horses without breeding recorded are not allowed to compete either above a certain level.

I don't like that. I can't imagine Blue and I would ever get to a level where it was an issue, but I'd like to be held back by our abilities, not because she's a mongrel with no idea who her parents are.

 

[shortstuff99]

The sports were all run by BHS and then there was a big falling out/ backlash which is why they became separate.

 

[LEC]

I don't like that. I can't imagine Blue and I would ever get to a level where it was an issue, but I'd like to be held back by our abilities, not because she's a mongrel with no idea who her parents are.

whereas I think it’s a great idea to stamp out the indiscriminate breeding which goes on, to give horses value and proper passports which make them traceable. People need to think bigger picture and longer term. If non breeding recorded horses had their value decimated overnight it would sure make people make an effort to sort it out. It wouldn’t be decimated anyway, there would still be a leisure horse market but they wouldn’t be able to compete at BD, BE etc only at RC. Anyway the British don’t need to worry about this as we love our murky messes around the industry and will never do anything about it.

The UK is an equestrian mess in so many ways and mostly admin ones. We have ridiculous levels of bureaucracy which wipe out riding schools, yet we have about 40 different passporting issuing points, cannot do a single database which manages the equine population, fragmented approach to international sport and welfare work is done by charities which leads to low levels of success and a long process which takes years to get a result.

 

[Alibear]

There seems to be an alternate group forming instead of BD too. I think the show has to pay BD quite a price to use each test which means venues can't afford to offer the higher levels with fewer entrants. It makes it very hard when you finally reach them, and there's nowhere to provide the competitions.
I remember when they were all under 1 umbrella, and that wasn't perfect as things had become very rigid and development seemed to be a swear word. Splitting up boosted things for a while, but perhaps now is the time to look for a new approach.
I don't do any English competitions, but I see it affecting friends and fellow liveries and it does seem to be challenging.

 

[LEC]

I remember when they were all under 1 umbrella, and that wasn't perfect as things had become very rigid and development seemed to be a swear word. Splitting up boosted things for a while, but perhaps now is the time to look for a new approach.
I don't do any English competitions, but I see it affecting friends and fellow liveries and it does seem to be challenging.

I think one of the issues is that BHS is a charity and wasn't geared up for innovation. Their basic mission is education and welfare and they are very good at that. Competition moves quickly and is constantly evolving which they are not good at. You only need to look at how clunky BRC is with everything who still come under the BHS umbrella though stand on their own two feet.

Things will not change as BE, BD and BS do not like handing back power. The nightmares that have happened at BEF are a very good example. Bullying, harassment, rigidity, revolving doors of CEOs. The BEF had to exist for BE etc to get access to lottery money as the sports have to come under one roof.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think one of the issues is that BHS is a charity and wasn't geared up for innovation. Their basic mission is education and welfare and they are very good at that. Competition moves quickly and is constantly evolving which they are not good at. You only need to look at how clunky BRC is with everything who still come under the BHS umbrella though stand on their own two feet.

Thing is things will not change as BE, BD and BS do not like handing back power. The nightmares that have happened at BEF are a very good example. Bullying, harassment, rigidity, revolving doors of CEOs. The BEF had to exist for BE etc to get access to lottery money as the sports have to come under one roof.

There's no doubt that the whole thing is an organisational nightmare. I keep looking at it from a macro level and seeing a big gap - BEF is doing the international teams funding stuff, and it is also doing the participation funding stuff - trying to get more people into the sport from a diverse range of backgrounds. There's a big gap in the oversight of BEF, which is that point between riding schools and affiliated competition - where people may have joined a riding club, pony club or be BHS members, but seem to be more likely to not have any link into the orgs that sit under the BEF umbrella. Which is all fine until it goes wrong - whether thats for equine welfare, safeguarding, doping, cheating reasons etc. etc.

FWIW I think the changes happening at British Eventing are designed to help bridge that gap, but eventing isn't usually where the intro to competing starts - that's more with BD and BS and RC....

Then there's the issue of wastage in duplication - multiple coaching pathways, *so* many databases, parallel competition structures, so many memberships... it doesn't make any sense to me that there should be separate youth eventing structures in Pony Club and in British Eventing and separate senior amateur eventing structures in British Riding Clubs and British Eventing.

I do keep looking across to France and see more logic in the set up.

The challenge for me in seeing how this all fits together comes back to the competition centres themselves - who are obviously under pressure to be commercially successful, and are in direct competition with other local venues. Of course they want to offer what their customers want, which is usually cheaper entry fees for equivalent competitions. Or equivalent on surface level.

My self-interest in all of this is wanting to continue to enjoy the sport I love... and whilst the threat of member bodies collapsing is a real one, the even bigger threats are the looming issues of societal license to involve horses in sport - which we will only be able to navigate with strong support structures in place.

 

[LEC]

My self-interest in all of this is wanting to continue to enjoy the sport I love... and whilst the threat of member bodies collapsing is a real one, the even bigger threats are the looming issues of societal license to involve horses in sport - which we will only be able to navigate with strong support structures in place.

I agree with you, we run a ridiculously fragmented system. Thing is we run on a historical history where the background was hunting and competition is relatively a very recent thing and a lot of that came out of the hunting field. Anything which did not come out of the hunting field came out of the cavalry but unlike other European countries the cavalry tradition was eroded very quickly thanks mainly to huge debts after WW2. I think the other big fundamental difference on the continent is horses are, and have remained agricultural in taxation, access to subsidy and government funding. This is what has set them up better for the modern world and why they tend to be one decent large unified federation and why aspects such as riding schools are much better able to prosper.

 

[teapot]

whereas I think it’s a great idea to stamp out the indiscriminate breeding which goes on, to give horses value and proper passports which make them traceable. People need to think bigger picture and longer term. If non breeding recorded horses had their value decimated overnight it would sure make people make an effort to sort it out. It wouldn’t be decimated anyway, there would still be a leisure horse market but they wouldn’t be able to compete at BD, BE etc only at RC. Anyway the British don’t need to worry about this as we love our murky messes around the industry and will never do anything about it.

The UK is an equestrian mess in so many ways and mostly admin ones. We have ridiculous levels of bureaucracy which wipe out riding schools, yet we have about 40 different passporting issuing points, cannot do a single database which manages the equine population, fragmented approach to international sport and welfare work is done by charities which leads to low levels of success and a long process which takes years to get a result.

I'd say poor business management is what wipes out riding schools in reality. The licensing process while tedious to get done is the only formal paperwork required, and then BHS/ABRS approval if you want it. You can run a decent riding school and not go anywere near the BHS or ABRS if so desired.

You've just given me an idea for my next blog post @LEC , and fits nicely with my two latest ones, thank you!

 

[YorkshireLady]

I think one issue is as they are all sep organisations there are bound to be overhead duplications....which adds to the money they need coming in to run. I do think that in a few years is a possibility for financial reasons alone they will need to consider working more closely together if not combining fully.,

There is also the new organisations trying to form....like the Dressage Circle which is interesting but I cannot see how it will be sustainable in the saturated market place as previously mentioned....seeing as is also going for membership.

 

[JGC]

Just to add on the French system, my mare is "ONC" (no pedigree) because her birth was registered when she was a two-year-old and information was given on her parents. Otherwise she would have been "OC", which would have allowed her to compete at all levels. Even as "ONC" she can compete at all levels in "préparatoire" classes, so I could probably manage to find enough classes to take her up to PSG (won't be an issue though ).

For the riding club level, the yearly sign up is 36 euros for adults, 25 for juniors, and then dressage entries are between 15-20. Some extra insurance is included for that price. For the higher levels, you have a competition licence around 70 euros, I think. Entries increase as you go up the levels, but it's still a lot less than in the UK! And I've occasionally won back the price of my entry.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think one issue is as they are all sep organisations there are bound to be overhead duplications....which adds to the money they need coming in to run. I do think that in a few years is a possibility for financial reasons alone they will need to consider working more closely together if not combining fully.,

There is also the new organisations trying to form....like the Dressage Circle which is interesting but I cannot see how it will be sustainable in the saturated market place as previously mentioned....seeing as is also going for membership.

Yes I find the new organisations trying to form to be an interesting symptom of the problems - noting that Eventing-UK facebook group appears to also be structuring into a more commercial operation with regional reps trying to drive forward more organisation of the unaffiliated market...

@JGC those sound likely delightfully affordable options!