Unbelievable......IMO!!!

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ReadyTeddyGo

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During my weekly cruise through Horsemart earlier I noticed a v.sweet ex racer up for peanuts. The advert says he is currently lame but may come sound with rest. I emailed to enquire what the injury was and vets prognosis etc to be told "I dont know I cant afford a vet to see him, he just came in lame from the field last week, I buy and sell ex racers to fund my competing". I dont know if I am over reacting but what the hell is someone doing buying and selling when they can't even afford a vets visit for one of these poor ponios:confused::confused::confused: Its made me quite sad :(
 
Seems to be a lot of over reacting going on here.Lets assume this person has enough knowledge to tell roughly where the lameness is. Do you call a vet every time your horse is lame in the foot? Personaly,I call my farrier first. If it isnt a shoeing problem and it isnt an infection, please tell me exactly what a vet is going to achieve. "Here,s some Bute, rest it" that will be £80 plus vat thanks.
 
Mike007 said:
Seems to be a lot of over reacting going on here.Lets assume this person has enough knowledge to tell roughly where the lameness is. Do you call a vet every time your horse is lame in the foot? Personaly,I call my farrier first. If it isnt a shoeing problem and it isnt an infection, please tell me exactly what a vet is going to achieve. "Here,s some Bute, rest it" that will be £80 plus vat thanks.
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Yes agree with you very much here!

Most lameness problems are common sense. Usually nothing like good care time and rest!
 
Mike007 said:
Seems to be a lot of over reacting going on here.Lets assume this person has enough knowledge to tell roughly where the lameness is. Do you call a vet every time your horse is lame in the foot? Personaly,I call my farrier first. If it isnt a shoeing problem and it isnt an infection, please tell me exactly what a vet is going to achieve. "Here,s some Bute, rest it" that will be £80 plus vat thanks.
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In which case then, why on earth didn't they just wait till it came sound and then sell on for twice the price? Also, if they really could tell where the lameness was, then why didn't they tell ReddyTeddyGo what was wrong?

Not having a go at you btw!
 
Actually Mike007 I think you have missed the point, the owner has no idea what the lameness is, nor has either a farrier or vet to see the horse from all accounts. As an owner, if you cant afford the bills you cannt afford the horse, and yes I can tell where my horse is lame from, but within 24 hours they are seen by an expert be that my farrier or vet, to ascertain the reason why, as leaving a problem can result in it being a bigger problem down the line, not the least to say about horse welfare. I would prefer to pay £80 than to trust to luck for a few days than have a horse out of action for months.

Also my vet has never ever said to me "heres some bute let it rest", he finds the problem and treats accordingly.

There is no excuse to put a lame horse up for sale, without at least knowing why it is lame and trusting lady luck will fix it, there could be a hundred different reasons why.
 
You do have a point. I suspect the sellers skills as a dealer are a bit lacking. I know of a few who wouldnt have even mentioned it and hoped a) the viewer wouldnt realise. or b) the horse would be sound by the time they visited. Its definately a bit of an odd advert. But I do stand by the idea that a vet is not always necessary, time heals a lot of things vets cant.
 
Too right time sorts things out....

My horse went badly lame last year, had x rays, where vet pronounced he had navicular... Offered me an operation at £2000 with no guarantee or have him pts because he would never be sound.

Good job i followed my own instincts. Barefoot, time and rest!

Year later horse 100% sound on no meds and back showjumping again!

I can quite happily say in most cases i know my own horse better than any vet.
 
My previous post was a reply to Bronsonnutter not Scally. Scally, either you have further information that was not in the original OP or you are exagerating. How do you know that a farrier has not looked, How do you know this persons level of knowledge? A dealing horse is a very different finnancial consideration to a competition horse.Look at how many lame horses the average competition yard has. All no doubt with huge vets bills. Now look at the success rate, not very inspiring ,is it. Rest has always been the best cure for lameness, and to be honest, in a dealing horse ,if this does not work ,then it is a gun job.
 
Originally Posted by Mike007
Seems to be a lot of over reacting going on here.Lets assume this person has enough knowledge to tell roughly where the lameness is. Do you call a vet every time your horse is lame in the foot? Personaly,I call my farrier first. If it isnt a shoeing problem and it isnt an infection, please tell me exactly what a vet is going to achieve. "Here,s some Bute, rest it" that will be £80 plus vat thanks.
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Daisychain said:
Yes agree with you very much here!

Most lameness problems are common sense. Usually nothing like good care time and rest!
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But that's not really/necessarily the case here. :confused:

According to the OP, the current owner/seller has stated that they are not getting the vet because 'they can't afford it', rather than them deeming it not necessary, but purely as it's suppose to be a 'money making/sell on' horse, then they are not prepared to, and would rather sell it cheap.

Not getting the vet for budget reasons, rather than the belief the horse shall benefit from rest, is very different. Selling the horse with an undiagnosed lameness, which hasn't even seen a vet, as opposed to having seen a vet who can't diagnose for sure, or a diagnosis that means they *may* come sound with rest, is purely irresponsible.

I don't give a monkey's watsit about an £80ish bill - my horses are my responsibility. I care about their comfort, and that's what you do, regardless of their value, or whether or not you plan to keep them or sell them asap! Sheesh, welfare and money may both involve a bit of common sense, but if you see a horse in pain and in urgent need then they are separate issues.
 
I would like to know where Mike007 I am exaggerating if you read the original post, it says the seller has know idea what is wrong with the horse. I am sorry a dealing horse is no different from a competition horse, a horse is a horse regardless I have both in my yard and not one would be left for any period of time, let alone put up for sale. I have horses competing at advanced levels in both eventing and SJ and fully aware of the cost involved, however at the end of the day the horses welfare is the first and last consideration.

I am not some idiot that calls the vet for no reason, however I am not a vet either and may have an idea as to what is wrong, and most of the time rest is the best cure, however your final comment totally shocks me, just because it is a dealing horse does not mean it should not get the best attention as one of my competition horses. One of the nicest horses I have in my yard is one of you so called "gun jobs".
 
No dealer can afford to throw money at a horse, for no return. If the horse is not suffering to an unreasonable extent,and a vet is not going to be able to assist the animal, what does it matter exactly where the lameness is. Just rest it.
 
This is where I think we must agree to disagree a horse is an animal, it is not like being a car dealer and it is a hard game, however the animals welfare must come first above profit. For a dealer to advertise a lame horse with no idea what the problem is, is unexcusable, whilst most might go sound after a period of rest, one return to work they may not stay sound and this is where dodgy dealers come to light. You make money on some and lose on others it is the name of the game.

A lame horse at the end of the day needs professional expertise sought, the Welfare Act quite clearly states this, if you are not able to take the risk and the costs involved then dont play the game, the horse in your care at the time is your responsibility and its welfare should be above anything else the primary concern.
 
I see far too many owners pouring their savings into horses that will never come right ,regardless of the latest gimick in veterinary medicine.Sometimes the gun is the kindest thing you can do for a horse. Why get a horse sound for a week,just to break some poor horse lovers heart. While I think the seller could have phrased things a bit better, at least there is a certain honesty about it. As far as I can see they are basicly saying ,"Ok he is lame, came in lame from the field". I am not prepared to pay for scans etc to tell me what is broken when the answer is going to be the same, rest.If you want to buy him great, if not Ok.
 
At exactly what level of lameness does the welfare act say that professional advice should be sought. One tenth lame ,on a five star vetting!This act was written by well meaning amateurs .
 
But this is where the problem lies, we are not asking the owner to pour their life savings into saving the horse however, they have not even got a professional opinion on what may be the problem. I am not opposed to having any horse shot if it is the kindest option or for financial reason the best option, having lost two this year, however bringing in a horse 10/10ths lame from the field the other week, 99% sure of the prognosis and 100% committed this horse is now likely to be come sound, rideable and with no lasting damage.

The Animal Welfare Act is there to protect animals, and I am sorry but if someone can not afford £100 to get the vet to look at the animal, they have no right to be in care of one. Owning a horse is a privelege not a god damn right as so many people these days seem to think, you have a responsibility to treat that animal with the best care at all times and that includes medical attention when it is required, if you can not afford £100 to do so, then you have no right in owning one, and give it away.
 
scally said:
But this is where the problem lies, we are not asking the owner to pour their life savings into saving the horse however, they have not even got a professional opinion on what may be the problem.
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Perhaps they are experienced enough to know what the the problem is in their own right I know people within the horse industry who I would trust more than some Vets.At least they are not trying to cover the problem up as happens so often.
From the fact the horse has dropped in value so rapidly would suggest to me that it had failed a vetting recently so perhaps the seller does have some idea of what is wrong.How many times do you see on this forum people spending thousands on exploratory lameness work ups only to get no definite outcome.Usually the best cure for any lameness is 12-18months in the field, and by far the cheapest.
 
Seller has horses on Horsequest at "£5,850 Must sell hence reduced price" so a guesstimate is that she can afford the vet, she is knowledgeable and has an inkling what is wrong and whether it will or won't recover, hence the price.
 
Irrespective of whether you should get a vet out to a lame horse or not, surely only an idiot would sell a lame horse at a much cheaper price if they don't know what is wrong with it. It does make me think they know exactly what is wrong with it and are trying to shift it quickly so they can avoid having to keep it or shoot it - either of which will cost them money.
 
Moggie said:
Seller has horses on Horsequest at "£5,850 Must sell hence reduced price" so a guesstimate is that she can afford the vet, she is knowledgeable and has an inkling what is wrong and whether it will or won't recover, hence the price.
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that's a HUGE assumption!
If it's irrevocably, disastrously lame, it should be shot, not sold on... for ANY price.

I am absolutely with Scally on this, i agree wholeheartedly with every word she's said. I'm not pathetic about horses, I don't spend thousands on hopeless cases nor expect other people to, but if one owns a horse, either fleetingly as a dealer or long-term as an owner/rider, one accepts the responsibility for any necessary care... and a horse brought in lame, and not responding to a day or two's box rest, a bit of hot tubbing if you think it might be shoe/foot/abscess, etc etc, needs to be examined by a farrier or vet. it's lame because it is in pain, therefore something must be done. palming the poor beast and its problem off on someone else is never the answer.
 
I think it's irresponsible to sell on a horse which has some kind of problem without making some effort to find out what that problem is. If you think you can tell what it is yourself, good on you, but most people would need to call out a vet or farrier (as appropriate). Only then can you decide what kind of future this horse could have and what is in its best interests.

Saying "it's lame, I don't know why and it's for sale" (if that is what the seller said) shows quite blatant disregard for the horse's welfare.
 
I do honestly think many vets can pump unknowledgeable people....

Think about it, if you have a pulled muscle or something in your leg and go to the doctor what does he say... Rest it for a few days and take a pain killer.

Exactly same incidence with a horse.... Ummm lets scan it, xray it give it a full lameness work out... load of bolox most of it. Ohh and heres £500 bill lol!

Don't get me wrong of course i use the vet, and some things we couldnt possibly do without.

I remember talking to Jonjo o Neil few months back, and his exact words were to me. If time and rest don't sort it out nothing else will.

I am quite sure this person is monitoring this horse and im sure its not crippled up in agony.

If its recently out of racing it could have many muscle or slight tendon issues, who knows. If the person is an experienced horse person im sure its ok.
 
Erm, daisychain, please define a "slight tendon issue". :( :(
i'm sorry, but if there is ANY tendon damage, you need an ultrasound scan by the vet to detect it (unless the tendon is obviously totally bowed and broken down, in which case the horse needs to be pts) and then careful management - icing in the early stages, rest, controlled exercise, etc etc. i know a LOT about tendons, unfortunately, but even then I don't ever guess about them... i've seen legs that were cold, straight and hard and yet on scanning showed a still-healing lesion (therefore more rest and very controlled exercise requd, even though the leg looked and felt fine so without the scan one would have assumed full exercise could be returned to), and legs that still puffed up a little but scanned as clear as could be expected, lesions fully healed etc.
 
Yes i have dealed with a fair few tendon injurys too. Its just good common sense rest and a year in the paddock. Obviously if its compleately ruptured thats going to be pretty obvious. But to be fair i have known a horse with compleately ruptured tendons have a year off and he now competes well in unaffiliated comps.

Oh and vet said pts!!! There very good at saying that lol!

Personally i wouldnt keep having the vet out every 5mins to tell me its healing or not, i think you can tell yourself which way it is going.
 
FMM said:
Irrespective of whether you should get a vet out to a lame horse or not, surely only an idiot would sell a lame horse at a much cheaper price if they don't know what is wrong with it. It does make me think they know exactly what is wrong with it and are trying to shift it quickly so they can avoid having to keep it or shoot it - either of which will cost them money.
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Agree with FMM - they know exactly what is wrong with it and are trying to get rid of it for any money. The buyer will have no comeback on them when they find out it might be a PTS case - as the seller told them it was lame.

Lets just hope no one is stupid enough to buy the horse.
 
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