Unbelievable! Vets offering mating service!

cinnamontoast said:
http://www.nethanvets.com/dating-mating/

No mention of health tests. Crazy! :mad:
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Evidently people who have complained have been struck off their list as they know what they are doing - even the ones who just asked surely heath testing and awards would be better than endering qualities.

Obviously trying to drum up their next generation of unhealthy pets to make money from.
 
That is shocking. It looks like they are suggested breeding stock is chosen on their "endearing features" not whether they are good specimens of their breed with health tests.:mad:
 
They do offer advice and information on health issues and related topics but state they are not providing the dating service to make extra money.

Its a good idea because it would open up the gene pool. Too many breeders producing pedigrees puppies from too few dogs and too many breeders breeding puppies for the wrong reasons.

Why should owners be more irresponsible ? Judging by the people I usually see in the vet's waiting rooms, they probably love their dogs a little too much.

Its only a bad idea if we assume all pet owners are idiots. Many breeders seem to have a chromosome missing themselves, so aren't devoid of the idiot gene either.
 
Unfortunately it does not surprise me, my vets are brilliant but so far I have been asked by one of the young vets if they can use my beddy on their lurcher bitch as she is cute. another trainee vet told me it was a real shame I had spayed my whippet bitch as I could have made a fortune breeding beddy whippets from her.
it seems to be the young inexperienced vets who have no bloody idea of the impact of breeding and rescues and unwanted dogs. I am sure it is not deliberately looking to increase their work, but ignorance is no excuse and somone irresponsible will look a that advert and think thats a great idea, no need to health check cos 'my vets have agreed it'
 
Looking at their website they seem to be just a one vet practice, and doing a lot on the behavioural front. Have to say I have never heard of a Human:Bond Centred Veterinary Practice.:p
Bosworth, I can't speak for all veterinary universities but at least one uses a lot of dogs that are pts by local pounds and I would imagine most of the students who graduate from there are sadly only too aware of the stray situation.
Horserider, as I suspect the only people who would avail themselves of this service would be people whose dogs aren't kc registered etc I can't really see how it can open up the gene pool. As the dogs will probably all be local it is not impossible they will even end up inbreeding.
 
horserider said:
Its a good idea because it would open up the gene pool. Too many breeders producing pedigrees puppies from too few dogs and too many breeders breeding puppies for the wrong reasons.
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How would a service open to and advertised to the same clients of one vet clinic, which I assume would serve people in the same local radius, OPEN the gene pool?!

And if people are breeding unregistered, untraceable dogs, how do they know anything about which dogs are IN or not in that gene pool? There is no way to stop breeding dogs with related genetics if you don't know the lines/have them recorded in the first place.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Looking at their website they seem to be just a one vet practice, and doing a lot on the behavioural front. Have to say I have never heard of a Human:Bond Centred Veterinary Practice.:p
Bosworth, I can't speak for all veterinary universities but at least one uses a lot of dogs that are pts by local pounds and I would imagine most of the students who graduate from there are sadly only too aware of the stray situation.
Horserider, as I suspect the only people who would avail themselves of this service would be people whose dogs aren't kc registered etc I can't really see how it can open up the gene pool. As the dogs will probably all be local it is not impossible they will even end up inbreeding.
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For instance; my BT is KC registered, a lovely specimen who's brother won his class in crufts. I have absolutely no interest in showing or the KC. I just like a good, healthy dog with a nice nature. Before I had him castrated, although people expressed an interest in breeding from him, the time was never right.
I would have considered it, if the right bitch had been available. I generally avoid pedigree dogs, I prefer X breeds. I just want a nice family dog. A similarly minded owner would have been perfect, as I'd have loved to have had one of his off spring.

The chances of those dogs staying in the same area is no more than dogs bought from a breeder. With internet advertising, people travel for a good dog.
If all dogs have to be KC registered in order to breed, then the gene pool is diminished.

Some of the healthiest dogs are X breeds and many people prefer them. The breeding policies of some breeders are very questionable.

Just don't make the assumption that all dog owners are irresponsible. Why not limit the number of dogs bred by professionals rather than deter responsible family dog owners who have no wish to follow the KC route.
 
Yes some breeders have questionable breeding policies, maybe I should not have said KC registered as I agree it is not a guarantee of responsible breeding. In my experience most reputable breeders sell puppies with an endorsement that they cannot be used for breeding unless the breeder has seen them and considers them of good type, and also have had all necessary health tests. This is why my thinking is that someone availing themselves of this vets service is maybe not breeding for the right reasons or from the best stock.

I do not assume all dog owners are irresponsible (that wouldn't make me very popular on here or amongst my friends:p) , but I still maintain that people breeding on a whim because their dog has "endearing features" are not doing it for the best reasons.
 
horserider said:
Some of the healthiest dogs are X breeds and
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And again, how how this myth not yet been exploded? :rolleyes: Healthy dogs come from healthy parents and the only way to ensure that is thorough health testing. Mongrels are not some of the healthiest! Some bad breeders/puppy farms have led to badly bred pedigrees. I would suggest that there are very few breeders of designer cross breeds who bother to health test.
 
horserider said:
If all dogs have to be KC registered in order to breed, then the gene pool is diminished.

Some of the healthiest dogs are X breeds and many people prefer them. The breeding policies of some breeders are very questionable.
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I know people who drive across the continent to mate their female to a quality male and spend thousands importing quality dogs - that to me is better for the gene pool and far less 'questionable' and much more helpful to the gene pool than reversing one unknown dog into another and saying 'hey! these will be more healthy!' with no health tests to prove either way.

I'm no cheerleader for the KC but they are improving.
There are other FCI-affiliated registries apart from the KC. My last three dogs were all registered to recognised registries, just never bothered having them registered with the KC as well.

I find it disturbing that one television programme has encouraged anyone with an unregistered dog or a bitch to think that they are 'expanding the gene pool' and creating healthier dogs and destroying the bad nasty old KC when all they're doing is just...producing more unknown, untraceable dogs with no way to stop any genetic problems when they do occur, because there is no way of recording the details of the breeding.
 
I'm just wondering how many of these puppies would then go on to be bred from anyway. Breeders breed. The majority of pet owners have a dog or two for its life and never breed at all. They don't want the massive upheaval of having puppies at home.

Regulars at the vets tend to be the better owners. They have they dogs vaccinated and pay for health care. Should the ones that would like to breed from their pet be thought of as irresponsible ?


If the vet was sticking an advert on Gumtree offering a pet dating service, I'd agree that it was bad. However, Most vets know their clients so it isn't unlikely that the owners would seek advice before risking their pets. Unless, you're of the opinion that all pet owners are stupid. Some maybe, but not all.

Domestic cats have historically mated with who ever was around at the time, no register, no nothing. Cats have thrived as tough, hardy little critters for centuries.

If breeders were doing such a great job, why do so many pedigrees have genetic problems and why are labs hip scored ? Why can't British Bull dogs breath easily, why do Bassets suffer with skin problems ? etc, etc.

Perhaps the vet's clients can do a better job ?

BTW, what is a designer cross breed. Is the definition someone who breeds a mix for profit, ie, a breeder ? Quite different to a good old fashioned mutt of dubious parentage of which I've had several.
 
I will say it again, the majority of puppies bred by responsible breederswill not be bred from as they will be sold with endorsements.
I love the idea that this vets clients would be able to improve their respective breeds with a few random litters, I think that is unlikely. Not quite sure if you fully understand what hip scoring is, as you seem to be grouping it with problems in other breeds.:confused:
 
Labs are hip scored because they're prone to dysplasia, whether KC reg or not. I most certainly would not rely on my vet saying I could breed: mine couldn't see a problem with Zak when we took him in. We could see the lameness, the vet couldn't.

Does this vet screen before allowing random dogs to breed? Or just he just say, 'Yeah, endearing lab, I know another that you could breed with' then the dam's owner ends up with a litter of dysplastic pups?

Designer breeds, as I'm sure you know, are those with silly made up names, often ending 'oodle' and are touted as non shedding, hypoallergenic blah blah when it's 50/50 whether the pups will inherit the poodle coat or the other breed's. They are usually more expensive than a registered pedigree of either breed for no good reason.

I think it's highly irresponsible of the vet to advertise this service because some owners will be swayed by him being a vet, thinking under the medical umbrella of his practise, everything will be fine. So wrong.
 
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horserider said:
Domestic cats have historically mated with who ever was around at the time, no register, no nothing. Cats have thrived as tough, hardy little critters for centuries.

If breeders were doing such a great job, why do so many pedigrees have genetic problems and why are labs hip scored ? Why can't British Bull dogs breath easily, why do Bassets suffer with skin problems ? etc, etc.
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My Nan's cats were all snotty nosed critters which died young. Ever seen some of the problems caused by inbreeding feral cat communities? Yuck!!

ALL animals bred in large numbers will have genetic 'problems', humans included! If there is one problem animal in a pedigree breeding, there can equally be one problem animal in a crossbreeding.
Take for example a dysplastic lab, as you mentioned labs - mated to a poodle, which can also suffer from hip dysplasia, the problem will reverberate down through the generations whether they are mutts or not or whether the poodle has clear hips or not.

The way to stop it is to stop breeding from dysplastic animals or those known to throw dysplasia - how do we know if they are dysplastic or not, if their hips are never x-rayed.

Re hip scoring, all of our GSDs have been from generations of low-hip scoring animals (not just mum and dad), my mother started participating in the hip scoring scheme in the mid 1970s.
None of our dogs has ever had hip dysplasia and all of our dogs have traceable lineage so that if a problem does present itself, we have a better idea of where it might have come from, and we can avoid those lines in future. That's good enough for me :)
 
Horsesforever1 said:
Can people complain to the Vets registration body?
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They're not breaking any laws, nor ethical restrictions.

When will the world wake up to the fact that "Puppies mean Pennies"? ;)

Veterinary practices are businesses, just like any other business.

Veterinary practises will tell you what they think that you want to hear.

Veterinary practices, generally, will keep an animal alive whilst there's money to be earned.

Veterinary practises will, in the event of serious problems, first check on whether the animal is insured, and the next question will be the limit of the insurance. If there is no insurance, then the advice will be "Perhaps we should consider what's in Fido's best interest", which is often exactly the same advice offered when the insurance limit is reached.

Face up to the above facts, and you wont be so surprised at CT's opening post! ;):D

Alec.
 
If these were my vets I would be going elsewhere but first I would tell them why.

What they are doing may not be illegal but its sure as hell irresponsible and unethical.
 
I am currently looking at suitable stud dogs to use in 2 years time, I am choosing between 3 possibles who will be a good match for her. Hmmmm. Maybe I should ask my vet. NOT!
 
MurphysMinder said:
I will say it again, the majority of puppies bred by responsible breederswill not be bred from as they will be sold with endorsements.
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Quila's breeder does exactly that! I got away with having none because I had no intention to breed or show her. I did toy with the idea but 100% would have approached her beforehand for advice (on her quality and picking a dog etc).

I keep being told I should breed Tia to make a bit of money.....NOT A PRAYER!

When it comes to animals.....people really bloomin' annoy me 90% of the time :mad:
 
a cross breed and a true heinz 57 are very different, there are not many heinz 57 left as people generally want some idea of what the finished article will look like. cross breeds generate more profit as people still believe the hype that they are healthier than pedigrees, that you can predict temperament, that you are getting wht they say they are selling and that anything crossed with a poodle will not moult.

i feel like banging my head against the nearest wall, when will people learn itis a load of c**p?

however most true mutleys/heinz 57 are healthier and more long lived than MOST pedigrees/crossbreeds due to the gene pool being more diverse-i am not saying every mutt or every time but often.
 
I have to say, much as I like my vet, he would not be the first person to ask if I was considering breeding or what I should be looking for in a sire or a dam to compliment the breeding animal - I think he is probably too busy treating sick animals to devote himself to studying bloodlines and identifying what certain dogs and bitches in each individual breed might bring to a breeding.
 
slightly OT but my neighbour has a cross bred bitch. never goes out apart for into their small back garden. wets itself and gets very very excited if she sees me in the garden.basically untrained. owner told me yesterday they are thinking of letting her have puppies, to sell. ---spaying is expensive, puppies can be sold.
SPEACHLESS
 
Jools2345 said:
however most true mutleys/heinz 57 are healthier and more long lived than MOST pedigrees/crossbreeds due to the gene pool being more diverse-i am not saying every mutt or every time but often.
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My point exactly.

My own mutts of undetermined genetic genealogy have all had long lives uncomplicated by illness and genetic defects.


When will breeders stop being irresponsible in trying to produce the perfect pedigree motivated by their own vanity and not the future of the breed ?

Why should it be assumed that a vet's client would be more irresponsible than them ? Perhaps you've (generic)assumed the clients are all intellectually challenged.
They might just be professionals, horse trainers and even, heaven forbid, just thoroughly decent people.

Of course, local breeders might not like the vet's idea. They might have to reduce their breeding programme.
 
horserider said:
My point exactly.

My own mutts of undetermined genetic genealogy have all had long lives uncomplicated by illness and genetic defects.


When will breeders stop being irresponsible in trying to produce the perfect pedigree motivated by their own vanity and not the future of the breed ?

Why should it be assumed that a vet's client would be more irresponsible than them ? Perhaps you've assumed the clients are all intellectually challenged.
They might just be professionals, horse trainers and even, heaven forbid, just thoroughly decent people.

Of course, local breeders might not like the vet's idea. They might have to reduce their breeding programme.
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So you are happy for dogs to be allowed to reproduce indescriminately - maybe allowed to roam or do you prefer ferals?

Responsible breeders pay out so much to ensure the puppies they produce, and they are generally breeding for the best they can for themselves to keep, are a correct & healthy as possible that they will have done their research, had the testing, searched for the best pairing. Someone looking for a mate on a vets website is akin to looking on Preloved which is where to quote your phrase " intellectually challenged" would look. An educated "breeder" would go to their pets breeder or the breed club or the working group they are part of.


The people who will use this vets planned service will just be after cute puppies to sell -the very breeders who do the breeds a disservice. You seem to have a strange idea of "the prefect pedigree", influenced perhaps by poor journalism?
 
s4sugar said:
So you are happy for dogs to be allowed to reproduce indescriminately - maybe allowed to roam or do you prefer ferals?
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thats a bit of a leap from what was said.

personally the healthiest dogs i have ever seen have been working dogs-i go beating and many of the dogs that pick up are bred by the gamekeepers, often they are lab or lab types that have been bred to good healthy long lived dogs that have led a long trouble free working life or form lines that tend to have healthy histories. they are not often registered as at some point they would have been bred out for sought after features. working lurchers are a very healthy type with strong in bred traits and long lived (if they dont crash at speed), to my knowledge the are are no known health issues for them and if a line does show a problem/a litter show undesired traits then most breeders dont breed from them again. same with working terriers. the need for testing has been created by selective breeding without regard for health issues for so many years we just wanted them to look 'right'. yes good breeders are now trying to rectify this but it is a result of selective breeding and mans interference that created the problem.

there are breeds that i like and i am still not sure if i would ever have a pedigree or first/second cross-i just wish people would see things for what they are-humans interfered and we created a huge problem for many breeds of dog.
 
My own breed was for generations only bred to work and yet PRA was discovered within two generations from working stock.
As a late onset recessive that didn't affect the breeds' working ability it was never selected against by the people producing reknowned working dogs.
This has left a legacy that show breeders, raising funding for DNA research & eye testing are hopefully going to remove in about three generations. It could be removed in one fell swoop but that would compromise the gene pool so a measured approach where no dog will be affected -ie go blind - will be born unltil the breed can be declared clear.

My oldest dogs have been Chihuahuas -17 & 19 with no vet bills until extreme age. The oldest dog I know is a poodle. I see a lot of working terriers with Patella luxation which usually gets dismissed with a "doesn't bother him" as the dog sires more affected puppies.

Jools2345 - where are the mongrels going to come from then?
 
s4sugar said:
My own breed was for generations only bred to work and yet PRA was discovered within two generations from working stock.
As a late onset recessive that didn't affect the breeds' working ability it was never selected against by the people producing reknowned working dogs.
This has left a legacy that show breeders, raising funding for DNA research & eye testing are hopefully going to remove in about three generations. It could be removed in one fell swoop but that would compromise the gene pool so a measured approach where no dog will be affected -ie go blind - will be born unltil the breed can be declared clear.

i have no doubt that good breeders are doing everything to rectify problems that were created many moons ago

My oldest dogs have been Chihuahuas -17 & 19 with no vet bills until extreme age. The oldest dog I know is a poodle. I see a lot of working terriers with Patella luxation which usually gets dismissed with a "doesn't bother him" as the dog sires more affected puppies.

Jools2345 - where are the mongrels going to come from then?
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some lurchers are a true mutts-but apart from that you have me there as they are difficult to find, when i have space for another dog i shall be keeping my eye out at work with the strays we get in and looking in the pound. i shant be giving any support to the kennel club by buying a pedigree though as i feel they have been largely responsible for the down fall of many breeds despite the determined efforts of good breeders
 
Jools2345 said:
some lurchers are a true mutts-but apart from that you have me there as they are difficult to find, when i have space for another dog i shall be keeping my eye out at work with the strays we get in and looking in the pound. i shant be giving any support to the kennel club by buying a pedigree though as i feel they have been largely responsible for the down fall of many breeds despite the determined efforts of good breeders
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Lurchers are pedigree -cross bred but pedigree. Do you not know the different between a pedigree & a purebred. I have no problem with someone adopting a dog from a pound or rescue situation but it is staements such as you have made that can lead to mutts being produced. FWIW I spend a lot of time explaining to clients why "fluffy" should not be bred from.

Few pure breds are worthy of being allowed to reproduce but no mutt should breed. There are too many pups born and too few permanent homes.
 
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