Unexpected lameness during vetting

[PaintPony]

I've recently been looking for my first horse and believed I'd found the perfect one. Had him vetted this morning and he's sadly failed on the lunge. Passed the 1st stage perfectly, passed his trot up and flexion tests perfectly (he's flawless!) but then we popped him on the lunge and trotted him in the grass school. The vet has said that he's bilaterally 2/10 lame on both hind legs, but only the one on the inside of the circle. To my untrained eye I really couldn't see this. Vet said he isn't stiff, and his back is still soft, he was not tracking up properly and was bringing his inside leg out (?) each stride. Also reluctant to canter on both sides. This horse has been out of proper work for months, has been lunged about 4 times in his life and has never showed this lameness. He was stabled for 14 hours prior to the vetting which he isn't used to, and it has been wet and windy here the past few days so potentially could've slipped in the field. As a first time horse buyer I am rather lost, and was wondering what other peoples thoughts were. The vet has suggested nerve blocks? I understand this could be so many different things, I'm trying my best to work with the seller to find a solution. I've suggested she videos him being lunged each week to keep track of the lameness, and I've also suggested getting another vet out for a 2nd opinion. Any thoughts?
Reasons we've thought of so far are: Wet grass (trying not to slip), unbalanced, hurt himself in the field, stiff from being in the stable, back/hip/pelvis issues, joint issues, suspensory/ligament issues, neurological issues, general unfitness.
Thank you everyone!

 

[shortstuff99]

What are you wanting the horse for? If it is anything more than light hacking I would walk away and find a different one.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If the vendor is willing to investigate at their expense and take whatever action is necessary, then allow you to re-vet, I would take that option. I don't really understand why he had been kept in for 14 hours. How old is the horse? Could it be something age-related? What do you want to do with him? The thing is that if you pay for a vet opinion, it is sensible to listen to their advice.

 

[SOS]

Why’s he been out of work for months? Why was he stabled for 14 hours before the vetting if this is not his routine?

You paid a vet for their opinion, they given it and steps forward. I would speak to the seller and see if they would investigate the lameness if you really want the horse and then revet when sound. But personally there’s enough horses out there without buying one that’s already lame!

 

[Birker2020]

If a horse is stiff to the point of being lame after 14 hours in the stable he is no good for you anyway.

If the vet says his lame I would want to know why, but be warned it could be costly, particuarly if the seller knows the horse is lame and is trying to palm him off on some unsuspecting person and will not want to pay to find out why. If he is reluctant to canter this could be a whole host of issues.

Also if the horse has been out of work for several months then did you question why this was?

I went to view a horse in August whose owner approached me. She'd heard I was looking to buy a horse. He was a lovely horse, just what i was looking for. But on our return home from the viewing I showed an equestrian professional videos of the horse and she noted a number of things and advised me not to go any further without her seeing him in the flesh. She felt he has some serious issues and the fact he'd been warmed up in long grass first prior to going in the school rang a warning bell with me and my partner as we couldn't see him move his limbs! At this point my friend and I were going to go back and see him the following week as the seller said she wasn't going to put him on the market for a few weeks.

After a day or so the same friend text me to say the horse was being advertised and the seller inexplicably increased the price by £2K. So I rang her and said I wasn't interested at the new price and passed on the professionals comments about the horse not being sound. I wondered what she would do so a few days later I text the seller on my work phone and pretended to me someone else and said I was interested in viewing her horse for sale and she told me he'd come in lame from the field and was withdrawn from sale until the vet could assess. I firmly believe she was trying to palm the horse off someone, thought I'd be stupid enough and knew there was a problem with the horse.

 

[PaintPony]

If the vendor is willing to investigate at their expense and take whatever action is necessary, then allow you to re-vet, I would take that option. I don't really understand why he had been kept in for 14 hours. How old is the horse? Could it be something age-related? What do you want to do with him? The thing is that if you pay for a vet opinion, it is sensible to listen to their advice.

The seller will have to investigate and so I assume she will. The horse is 8/9yrs old, fairly low mileage. He was stabled for 14 hours prior to vetting as that's what the vet asked for. I am looking for a horse to go out hacking, do riding club activities with and small clear rounds. Low level dressage, tiny hunter trials. Max 80cm. This will not be a common occurrence and the horse will usually be taken out hacking or will be schooled. The vet was unfortunately very vague when she picked up the lameness, suggested that getting nerve blocks done would be a good way to start, then left! No advice, no potential causes or cures. I know they can't predict things but I thought she would be a bit more thorough than that. Also the horse has been out of work for months as the person selling him has partly lost interest, and partly has not got the time for him any more, it's not due to injuries or otherwise.

 

[PaintPony]

If a horse is stiff to the point of being lame after 14 hours in the stable he is no good for you anyway.

If the vet says his lame I would want to know why, but be warned it could be costly, particuarly if the seller knows the horse is lame and is trying to palm him off on some unsuspecting person and will not want to pay to find out why. If he is reluctant to canter this could be a whole host of issues.

Also if the horse has been out of work for several months then did you question why this was?

I went to view a horse in August whose owner approached me. She'd heard I was looking to buy a horse. He was a lovely horse, just what i was looking for. But on our return home from the viewing I showed an equestrian professional videos of the horse and she noted a number of things and advised me not to go any further without her seeing him in the flesh. She felt he has some serious issues and the fact he'd been warmed up in long grass first prior to going in the school rang a warning bell with me and my partner as we couldn't see him move his limbs! At this point my friend and I were going to go back and see him the following week as the seller said she wasn't going to put him on the market for a few weeks.

After a day or so the same friend text me to say the horse was being advertised and the seller inexplicably increased the price by £2K. So I rang her and said I wasn't interested at the new price and passed on the professionals comments about the horse not being sound. I wondered what she would do so a few days later I text the seller on my work phone and pretended to me someone else and said I was interested in viewing her horse for sale and she told me he'd come in lame from the field and was withdrawn from sale until the vet could assess. I firmly believe she was trying to palm the horse off someone, thought I'd be stupid enough and knew there was a problem with the horse.

he was actually not stiff at all after being stabled for so long which surprised me too. very supple in his back, vet said he wasn't stiff at all on the lunge, just lame! it's all very strange and i cannot for the life of me think why.

 

[Pinkvboots]

The being out of work for months is a bit worrying but if you really like him get the owner to investigate and then if its something fixable negotiate a price and buy him.

I also wouldn't want a horse lunged on grass at a vetting the footing is not great I think a lot of horses will move differently and be a bit guarded on wet slippery grass.

I know both of my horses would be reluctant to canter on wet ground especially on a circle.

What are his feet like was he shod?

 

[ester]

If the horse hasn't done a lot of it (and even more so if not done a lot of it recently) I don't think lunging on wet grass (given the time of year) was probably great for assessment. I'd likely vet again but transport somewhere with a surface to do so.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I wouldn't even attempt to lunge a horse on grass atm - the ground is waterlogged and any horse, shod or not, would be holding itself carefully trying not to slip. So that may be it, but only 'may'.

 

[PaintPony]

The being out of work for months is a bit worrying but if you really like him get the owner to investigate and then if its something fixable negotiate a price and buy him.

I also wouldn't want a horse lunged on grass at a vetting the footing is not great I think a lot of horses will move differently and be a bit guarded on wet slippery grass.

I know both of my horses would be reluctant to canter on wet ground especially on a circle.

What are his feet like was he shod?

It certainly wasn't ideal, but we had no where else to lunge him on a soft surface!
He is shod on all 4s, was last shod at the start of this month. The vets husband is a farrier and she said he has brilliant feet, which I can agree with.

 

[Pinkvboots]

It certainly wasn't ideal, but we had no where else to lunge him on a soft surface!
He is shod on all 4s, was last shod at the start of this month. The vets husband is a farrier and she said he has brilliant feet, which I can agree with.

Oh right can rule that one out then thing is if the horse hasn't been worked it could have had this lameness from a while back but owner hasn't noticed, because unless you are looking at them regularly you have no idea they are lame or when it started.

Maybe take a punt and get him taken somewhere with a school and get vetted again, I am assuming he only looked lame on the grass on a circle?

 

[stangs]

If I were you, especially because you think he’s perfect otherwise, I’d want a vetting on a different terrain, even if you have to hire an arena for it.

Was he fine to be trotted up on hard ground?

 

[PaintPony]

If I were you, especially because you think he’s perfect otherwise, I’d want a vetting on a different terrain, even if you have to hire an arena for it.

Was he fine to be trotted up on hard ground?

yes, he was sound as a penny on concrete which is what has really stumped me. I know flexion tests can be controversial but they didn't affect him at all, so why has trotting on the lunge brought out this low-level lameness? I think it would be worth hiring an arena too, I just have no idea where the closest one is to him!

 

[ester]

Because you were on wet ground, horses don't move with confidence on wet ground on a lunge circle particularly if they aren't used to it. I'd say it was more predictable than stumping!

(As someone who used to lunge on a field all through winter because that is what they have)
The owner should know what facilities are available locally, I'm surprised they didn't suggest it before, or that the vet agreed to do the vetting without a suitable surface.

 

[ycbm]

Vets often ask for horses to be kept in the night before a vetting. I think it's an unreasonable request because any horse for sale where a stable is not available will not have that done and will still be vetted. I never do it, unless the horse was due to be in at night anyway, I just bring the horse in an hour before the vet is due.
.

 

[ycbm]

Because you were on wet ground, horses don't move with confidence on wet ground on a lunge circle particularly if they aren't used to it. I'd say it was more predictable than stumping!

(As someone who used to lunge on a field all through winter because that is what they have)
The owner should know what facilities are available locally, I'm surprised they didn't suggest it before, or that the vet agreed to do the vetting without a suitable surface.

This. If the horse is sound on concrete and on an arena surface then personally I'd take very little notice of what is was doing on wet grass.

 

[PaintPony]

Thank you everyone for your advice. Just rang the seller and we're going to try and book an arena to lunge him in to assess whether he's genuinely lame or whether he was trying to self-preserve on wet grass. Hopefully it was nothing more than him being careful!

 

[PaintPony]

Because you were on wet ground, horses don't move with confidence on wet ground on a lunge circle particularly if they aren't used to it. I'd say it was more predictable than stumping!

(As someone who used to lunge on a field all through winter because that is what they have)
The owner should know what facilities are available locally, I'm surprised they didn't suggest it before, or that the vet agreed to do the vetting without a suitable surface.

Mmm.. possibly! I just really didn't expect him to fail on something so simple I suppose. The vet just asked for either an arena or grass school, no mention of wet/dry ground unfortunately.

 

[NR88]

The onus is on the owner to investigate the lameness and, as far as possible, get a firm diagnosis and prognosis.

The reason your vet didn't offer suggestions on the lameness or how to treat it is because they were there acting on your behalf. The vet failed the horse as not suitable for your requirements based on what they saw on the day. If you owned the horse the vet would discuss a plan of action to diagnose and treat the lameness.

Shoes on wet grass are very slippy ad a horse guarding itself may not track up or move freely but that is different from a bilateral hind lameness. Bilateral lameness can be hard to see and that's one of many reasons to have a vetting.

Also the being sound on concrete vs lame on grass. Soft tissue injuries show up more obviously on soft ground in the same way that hard tissue injuries show more on hard ground. So it is feasible that a horse appears sound on concrete but not on a surface or grass.

I have been where you are where a horse I was invested in failed a vetting. The seller was fly and played on my emotions by "kindly" offering to take her horse to the vets for me to get the lameness investigated. That brought me to my senses very quickly!

I appreciate that you want this horse but really you have to walk away. If the owner gets the horse treated then you can always get a second vetting done.

As always there are antidotes from people who bought horses that failed vettings and never had any bother but it is a gamble. Given that this will be your first horse it really isn't worth the gamble.

Of course anything can go wrong with any horse but as much a possible you don't want to buy a problem and your vet has failed this horse because there was a problem making the horse unsuitable for what you wish to do.

 

[PaintPony]

The onus is on the owner to investigate the lameness and, as far as possible, get a firm diagnosis and prognosis.

The reason your vet didn't offer suggestions on the lameness or how to treat it is because they were there acting on your behalf. The vet failed the horse as not suitable for your requirements based on what they saw on the day. If you owned the horse the vet would discuss a plan of action to diagnose and treat the lameness.

Shoes on wet grass are very slippy ad a horse guarding itself may not track up or move freely but that is different from a bilateral hind lameness. Bilateral lameness can be hard to see and that's one of many reasons to have a vetting.

Also the being sound on concrete vs lame on grass. Soft tissue injuries show up more obviously on soft ground in the same way that hard tissue injuries show more on hard ground. So it is feasible that a horse appears sound on concrete but not on a surface or grass.

I have been where you are where a horse I was invested in failed a vetting. The seller was fly and played on my emotions by "kindly" offering to take her horse to the vets for me to get the lameness investigated. That brought me to my senses very quickly!

I appreciate that you want this horse but really you have to walk away. If the owner gets the horse treated then you can always get a second vetting done.

As always there are antidotes from people who bought horses that failed vettings and never had any bother but it is a gamble. Given that this will be your first horse it really isn't worth the gamble.

Of course anything can go wrong with any horse but as much a possible you don't want to buy a problem and your vet has failed this horse because there was a problem making the horse unsuitable for what you wish to do.

I appreciate your input on this situation! My poor friend has been worried sick that I'm going to end up buying a lame horse, but the truth is if the horse is not 100% sound I'm not buying it! If he still clearly shows lameness on the arena surface, then there is really nothing more I can do than step back and wait until she either gets it investigated further or tries to sell him to a home that doesn't get him vetted (which i hope doesn't happen!). I understand this is a very dodgy situation to be in, and as disappointing as it is I still must think with my head over my heart! I do truly hope it was just a fluke, but you never really know with horses. I will continue looking for more horses in the meantime but he will certainly stick in the back of my mind.

 

[Goldenstar]

If it’s worse on the soft I would be worried it’s PSD I would move on .

 

[gallopingby]

Maybe get a second opinion? How experienced is the vet and is she your own vet or one picked at random?

 

[ester]

having it in the back of your mind was why I suggested trying again on a surface you can probably start with lunging and if it's lame straight off then stop the vetting going any further. (I'd probably get a different vet as totally clear point of view then)

 

[MuffettMischief]

I’d be taking the horse to an arena/decent surface and just get a vet to meet you there to watch him/her lunge on the soft and give their opinion. If they think the horse looks ok you could revet then, if not then you have your answer. Lots (most!) shod horses would look a bit crap being lunged on wet grass and it’s a bit of an unfair test. Best of luck ?

 

[teddypops]

Why’s he been out of work for months? Why was he stabled for 14 hours before the vetting if this is not his routine?

You paid a vet for their opinion, they given it and steps forward. I would speak to the seller and see if they would investigate the lameness if you really want the horse and then revet when sound. But personally there’s enough horses out there without buying one that’s already lame!

My vet always asks for the horse to be stabled before a vetting so that any stiffness shows up.

 

[nutjob]

OP I would already be walking away due to 2 red flags, one is that the horse has been out of work for months and the other is that the vet has detected a bilateral lameness. Bilateral PSD is difficult to see, I had one which appeared sound and I only took to the vet due to behavioural problems, he was PTS age 6. A friend bought one which passed a 5 stage and had to be retired about 2 months after she got it age 5, no insurance pay out as deemed to be pre existing - which it probably was.

Before investing any more time, money and emotional energy there are a couple of things you can do to see if there are any more red flags.
If it's from a dealer post on dodgy dealers fb asking for peoples experience, you can post anonymously. Find out if it has recently come from Ireland, a lot of hind leg lame horses I have looked at have been recently imported and are on copy passports, including some which are well bred and £10k +.
Is the person selling the horse the owner? Is it a sales livery, selling for a friend?
Look at the passport, is it a copy, if not write down all the names of previous owners and google them and horses stable name and passport name. If you can find any of previous owners on fb you can sometimes see videos they posted. A horse I tried was slightly off but which could be seen to be not right in a video posted a year prior so not a recent tweek, a long standing issue. Get a more experience person to view these if nec.
Try contacting previous owners, there shouldn't be many for a horse that age, see if they sold it with known vet issues which will limit the work it can do. Loads of horses sold or loaned as companions only are being snapped up by dealers atm and sold for 1000's.
Good luck.

 

[PaintPony]

OP I would already be walking away due to 2 red flags, one is that the horse has been out of work for months and the other is that the vet has detected a bilateral lameness. Bilateral PSD is difficult to see, I had one which appeared sound and I only took to the vet due to behavioural problems, he was PTS age 6. A friend bought one which passed a 5 stage and had to be retired about 2 months after she got it age 5, no insurance pay out as deemed to be pre existing - which it probably was.

Before investing any more time, money and emotional energy there are a couple of things you can do to see if there are any more red flags.
If it's from a dealer post on dodgy dealers fb asking for peoples experience, you can post anonymously. Find out if it has recently come from Ireland, a lot of hind leg lame horses I have looked at have been recently imported and are on copy passports, including some which are well bred and £10k +.
Is the person selling the horse the owner? Is it a sales livery, selling for a friend?
Look at the passport, is it a copy, if not write down all the names of previous owners and google them and horses stable name and passport name. If you can find any of previous owners on fb you can sometimes see videos they posted. A horse I tried was slightly off but which could be seen to be not right in a video posted a year prior so not a recent tweek, a long standing issue. Get a more experience person to view these if nec.
Try contacting previous owners, there shouldn't be many for a horse that age, see if they sold it with known vet issues which will limit the work it can do. Loads of horses sold or loaned as companions only are being snapped up by dealers atm and sold for 1000's.
Good luck.

He's been out of work for a while as the girl selling him no longer has enough time to take him out and ride him. He's taken out on short hacks when she has the time, but as far as I'm aware he's not ridden for weeks at a time. He did come from Ireland when he was 4, she's had him ever since as she got him as a birthday present! I know she got him from Harry Evans (which I truthfully am a bit worried about too) but apart from that I really don't know the rest of his background. He has a very odd 'passport', it's one sheet of paper, with his markings on one side and a form of some sort on the other. She isn't a dealer and is selling him simply because he's being wasted and she wants him to go out and have some fun, she seems incredibly genuine and is honest about never having sold a horse before. It's so heartbreaking and I do feel stuck, I will still get a 2nd vets opinion of him in an arena but things unfortunately are not looking too great. As I'm a first time horse buyer I honestly don't know if the paper with him is a passport or not, it's not a little booklet like the other ones and i've never seen one like it before. Do you think it would be worth contacting the vets that are stamped on the paper, although I'm not sure if they'd be able to tell me anything?

 

[laura_nash]

It sounds like what they have is a completed application for a passport that was never sent off (in which case the seller is breaking the law).

 

[PaintPony]

It sounds like what they have is a completed application for a passport that was never sent off (in which case the seller is breaking the law).

Well I certainly didn't expect that!