Unhappy Greyhound

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elsielouise

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Hi

This is a very long shot and I hope no one minds me posting this but my poor old girl is not happy.

Simply I have two retired greys and a Jack and all was fine before my son came along. They used to have the run of the house and I let them wander around at will. BUT I had baby two years ago and whilst none of my dogs has ever shown an ounce of agression towards my son I am simply not prepared to have the three of them around when I may not be in the same room with my little boy every second.

The Jack is fantastic with my son and given my son is now bigger then her they play together and are fine. My male grey is too stupid (really!) to care what happens and is content to sleep anywhere.

The problem is my coming up nine year old bitch who seems generally depressed with the 'sectioning off' I have had to do in my kitchen. They are walked daily, get to run off the lead and have access to the yard but she is still not happy.

I got as far as phoning the kennels last year and telling them and they said just bring her back but I couldnt bear to do that to her.

What she needs is to be a dog in a household without small children (not that she is unsafe and indeed my son loves her) but where she can be free to wander round (so older chldren who wouldn't sit on her would be fine -My son still thinks you sit on animals because you ride horses don't you?).

Dont get me wrong, I do not allow my boy to torment the dogs in any way but a greyhound lying flat out on the floor takes up a lot of space and is easily stood on by an adult neve rmind a child.

I would therefore allow her to be rehomed if I thought she would be happier and I know what she wants is to sit on a sofa with her head on someones knee. She is housetrained, excellent on the lead, not great with cats but OK with hens and horses.

We are in Kent and I would want to vet any potential home. I would also cover the cost of insuring her and vet bills as she is an older girl and would also be happy to use our vet who is a greyhound specialist.

I am in no rush to rehome her but if anyone knows of anyone who genuinely wants to offer a home to an old girl who would really appreciate a different lifestyle please pm me.

I've already asked around friends and family and my vet and dont want her going into a kennel - she's better of here than that. I am happy for her to see out her days here but you know when you can tell she's just not happy.


Sorry for mammoth post
 
poor girl
this must be soo hard for you
please try not send her back to the kennels
try posting on' k9 community' forum,there are people on their looking for greys esp good with cats

my friend had to give her whippet up due to the fact she had moved and this whippet wasnt coping with the move..hes as happy as larry now in his new home
 
Perhaps try oldies club or kent greyhound rescue to see if they can help rehome her from your house rather than have to go into kennels. I did think perhaps a crate would help give her own permanent den & you could shut her in when needed but sounds like you may not have room for one.
 
Thank you for that.
Will have a look at the 'oldies' web site. Have already spoken to retirement place I got her from (think is the Kent one anyway) and they wont rehome from my house but are happy to take her. That's not happening as she's been in a home four years.

I do have room for a crate and actually have one but the area we've created for the dogs has got several 'cubby' holes with dog beds in (underneath work tops etc) and she still chooses to lie out on the floor most of the time and has never been interested in going in the crate.

Its so sad as I took them all out for a run this morning and off the lead she was bounding along tail up and delighted with herself. Its just when we get home and I have to put her 'away' that she's sad. We do let her out of course but I am constantly on edge with my son who is just two and really doesn't get that she doesnt want her feet counting all the time. She doesnt tolerate pain well and I worry he might hurt her accidently, although she NEVER has snapped, I know she might if hurt- Have witnessed what she tried to do to the vet when he removed a corn!

I am sure her dozy mate isn't remotely concerned, he can barely stay awake long enough to lie down never notices if C sits on him and the Jack is usually out with my son and I anyway. Poor poochie.
 
:( how sad. Have you considered (and I understand where you are coming from, really I do) that whilst the situation may seem rather depressing and hopeless at the moment your son will grow up and things will get easier. IMO you have done the hardest bit but can see how now you have a two year old toddling about and into everything that it seems a tricky situation. Given her age I wouldnt look to rehome her, away from you and her canine buddies shes bound to be very unsettled by the change (especially given her reaction to the change you have had within the house). As your son gets older you will be able to give her more time and more space again. If shes having her happy part of the day still out walking etc I would soldier on with things in the knowledge it WILL get easier. She certainly hasnt got a terrible quality of life with you! Also greyhounds only really need that good walk in the day and then are more than happy just sleeping for the rest of it. Perhaps age is taking its toll too? She may seem more sombre in the house but maybe thats because a good walk now takes it out of her more than it once did? I dont know, shes obviously your dog and you know her best, just trying to add some angles you may not have thought of. To me though (and I certainly do not mean this offensively) this sounds like a post of someone who is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I think things will get better and easier (and remember she wont remember this period of time where things were slightly worse for her, dogs live in the moment. When your son is old enough to be told and understand not too disturb her when shes sleeping by the fire, which isnt that long off now, she will be perfectly happy and content I'm sure). :)
 
TBH Vizslak this is/was/remains my starting point. My son loves animals, understands 'gentle' and WILL stop falling over his own feet and onto dogs eventually. I really am looking for the home that is significantly better than she has and I know that her life is certainly not all bad. When I am look at it rationally she is never home alone as there are three of them, I don't work and can let them out through the day and usually plan full days out when I know my cleaner is around to let them out so they really are never left and are in a very settled 'pack' with lots of squashy beds and underfloor heating!

I was just hoping that maybe out there is someone, perhaps with older family who wants a companion dog to potter around with and she could go back to sleeping at the foot of the bed on a carpet (I just darent allow this with a toddler upstairs - of course this is just my safety precaution I know).

Perhaps the fact that I'm ill at the moment with flu and have kept up walking the dogs, feeding horses, hens, child and fish makes it all seem v difficult. And the pressure of the creatures all needing something when I need to be in bed is difficult today. And then when you know you can't give them everything they need....

< BIG Sigh>
 
haycroft said:
i can cross post your thread if you would like me to other forums
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Thank you. If you can do that with the whole thread that would be appreciated. I suspect she will be with us for the duration but I can't stand to see her looking the way she does and I certainly would only let go if someone genuinely wanted to make her life better. She is a sweet dog and though will steal socks occasionally really is only like having a large cat about the place (but you know that from what I see in your sig perhaps :) ). In the meanwhile - lets hope the ice holds off and my virus goes so I can get my dogs and buggy out!
 
I'm going to be honest and say that i think she is better of staying with you.

Your son will grow up. She's 9 years old. She knows her family. I don't think it would be fair to pass her on.

Do they get bones or stuffed kongs when they are shut away during the day?

Do you have her in with you after you son is in bed?

Do you play with them at all during the day?
 
Hope you make the right decision for you. I'll be following this thread with interest, as I have two small dogs and am currently pregnant with my first child. I had thought about staying in the city for a while, but it sounds like space ought to be optimal with child and dogs. I only know that my two try to break down doors if they're shut in another room, so that won't be an option for us.
 
prosefullstop said:
Hope you make the right decision for you. I'll be following this thread with interest, as I have two small dogs and am currently pregnant with my first child. I had thought about staying in the city for a while, but it sounds like space ought to be optimal with child and dogs. I only know that my two try to break down doors if they're shut in another room, so that won't be an option for us.
Click to expand...

Then you need to get working on their separation issues.
 
I feel for your situation and my hat goes off to you, no wanting to just get her out (as they do) in these situations.
If im to be hnest I have 10 dogs and if I fell pregnant, which is a possibility, (well if I im ever brave enough to remove the coil) :rolleyes: then my dogs would remain, every one of them, because I just could not part with them, knowing they could end up anyhwere (and I rehome dogs) I would indeed be using my doggy room, which I do now and the dogs would be in there whilst I sorted sprog, then they would be with me in the main house again when sprog was sleeping or in bed, much as they are now when Im busy or sleeping off the night shift, they would also be around the sprog whenever I was there, so they would still spend alot of time with me, and looking sad is alot better than living in a worse situation altogether.
I would also crate the sprog :rolleyes:
My rotti would not go into the dog room, she is a mammys girls and is never far from me, so I doubt things would change with her, she would still sleep on the landing and be my shadow, I would just take care to not leave her alone with sprog incase it tormented her (then I would smack it backside) ;) *joke* I would when it was old enough to know though :rolleyes::D
I think maybe if u can indeed find her a home with a mature couple and u home check thoroughly and get a good feel for the home then let her go, otherwise start thinking les about her looking glum and more about "where she could end up"

Do u have a garage? could u convert that into a doggy room with heat, setees, big beds and have a run on (thats what mine is like)


Prose u are preggers :eek: how did I miss that :o congrats missus.:D
 
elsielouise said:
Hi

This is a very long shot and I hope no one minds me posting this but my poor old girl is not happy.

Simply I have two retired greys and a Jack and all was fine before my son came along. They used to have the run of the house and I let them wander around at will. BUT I had baby two years ago and whilst none of my dogs has ever shown an ounce of agression towards my son I am simply not prepared to have the three of them around when I may not be in the same room with my little boy every second.

The Jack is fantastic with my son and given my son is now bigger then her they play together and are fine. My male grey is too stupid (really!) to care what happens and is content to sleep anywhere.

The problem is my coming up nine year old bitch who seems generally depressed with the 'sectioning off' I have had to do in my kitchen. They are walked daily, get to run off the lead and have access to the yard but she is still not happy.

I got as far as phoning the kennels last year and telling them and they said just bring her back but I couldnt bear to do that to her.

What she needs is to be a dog in a household without small children (not that she is unsafe and indeed my son loves her) but where she can be free to wander round (so older chldren who wouldn't sit on her would be fine -My son still thinks you sit on animals because you ride horses don't you?).

Dont get me wrong, I do not allow my boy to torment the dogs in any way but a greyhound lying flat out on the floor takes up a lot of space and is easily stood on by an adult neve rmind a child.

I would therefore allow her to be rehomed if I thought she would be happier and I know what she wants is to sit on a sofa with her head on someones knee. She is housetrained, excellent on the lead, not great with cats but OK with hens and horses.

We are in Kent and I would want to vet any potential home. I would also cover the cost of insuring her and vet bills as she is an older girl and would also be happy to use our vet who is a greyhound specialist.

I am in no rush to rehome her but if anyone knows of anyone who genuinely wants to offer a home to an old girl who would really appreciate a different lifestyle please pm me.

I've already asked around friends and family and my vet and dont want her going into a kennel - she's better of here than that. I am happy for her to see out her days here but you know when you can tell she's just not happy.


Sorry for mammoth post
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ive sent you a pm
 
Sorry to hijack, OP, but Cayla, the preggers thing just kind of happened. Like, immediately :D It's very early days yet, so we have plenty of time to work on any dog issues, which are some separation issues when we're home. Not always, but they do like to be close, the pug especially.

They are both brilliant with kids. They're used to being manhandled by my nephews and their friends, although I do need to teach Stella not to jump up and kiss noses when a child screams in excitement. I also imagine the filthy pug will try to eat dirty nappies.

We plan to stay in NYC, although I'm all but certain we'll decamp to the country in due course. I'm sure I'll be tearing my hair out, trying to steer a buggy and two small dogs on the narrow city streets.

KatieLou, we do plan on working on things sooner rather than later. Creating separate areas is not easy in an open-plan apartment, which is why I suspect I'll take Stella's advice and just move permanently to a damn house.
 
I know how you feel, having a two and a half year old boy and three dogs myself and i don't blame you if you feel overwhelmed - having a toddler in the house makes your head spin sometimes :rolleyes:

I took a different approach to you and have never separated the dogs from the child (other than the fact that the dogs never go upstairs anyway). The one who I thought would be most trouble was the Jack Russell bitch and with her i have encouraged my son to "train" her so she will now sit, roll over and walk on lead for him (for treats only lol) but this has made her think he is useful :rolleyes: and worthy of respect. The other two, a whippet and lurcher, are totally at ease with him and he knows not to poke or prod them or tread on them etc (I am not averse to showing him how it feels if it happens to him...)

Of course there is always the risk of an accidental tail trodden on or tripped over but tbh i would expect my dogs to maybe yelp then scoot out of the way if i tripped over them so I wouldn't expect any different reaction if my son did. Does your girl snap at you if you tread on her?

I guess what I am trying to say is it will get better very soon and perhaps you could start to relax the segregation and see how it goes - both your child and your animals will learn the rules but you may have to repeat yourself a thousand times to get there :rolleyes: :D
 
katielou said:
I'm going to be honest and say that i think she is better off staying with you.

Your son will grow up. She's 9 years old. She knows her family. I don't think it would be fair to pass her on.
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This...she's an old gal, it would not be fair to move her on at this age, IMO, I'd rather see her PTS if she was mine, my mother did the same to a much younger dog, his issue was over protectiveness and with me being a tiny baby, she couldn't juggle us both - but he could have gone so much more wrong if passed on to someone else.

But you've had some great advice and I bet you'll get this sorted, it probably seems like a lot of pressure now but you'll have plenty of support on here :)

And congrats, Prose :D
 
katielou said:
I'm going to be honest and say that i think she is better of staying with you.

Your son will grow up. She's 9 years old. She knows her family. I don't think it would be fair to pass her on.

Do they get bones or stuffed kongs when they are shut away during the day?

Do you have her in with you after you son is in bed?

Do you play with them at all during the day?
Click to expand...

Hi

They are in my utility room so I am in and out of there all day so they frequently get a 'pat and a chat'. My greys are not big on playing in the house, they prefer a run when they will use my Jack as a lure and chase her till she turns round and chases them back!

They were in racing kennels til the age of five and so they never learnt to play which is sad but they seem to cope. I dont give them bones anymore no - the impact on their digestion system is NOT for the faint hearted but tbh they really are a lazy breed and my male sleeps maybe 20 hours out of 24 with three hours having a quiet lie down. The bitch isnt much different except she gets up when I go in rather than just opening one eye like the other one!

We do let them out of course but for the last week or so havent with us all being ill and me going to bed at same time as son!

I KNOW many people think she will be better off where she is and art of me does think so too BUT she does demonstrate some attention seeking behaviours too (asking to go out when doesnt need to) which further tells me she's unhappy.
 
It sounds to me OP as if you are just feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment, and maybe guilty that you feel your old girl isn't happy. Just a thought but it isn't just that she has slowed down a bit with age so maybe doesn't seem the same dog?
I had 4 GSDs when my first child was born, they had always been used to spending some time either out in a kennel and run or in the kitchen away from us and I actually didn't change anything when I brought my daughter home from hospital. I had a very close bond with one bitch in particular (I had to stay in hospital for a week and demanded my OH brought the dog to hospital so I could go out and see her :p), and was a little worried she would be jealous but she became my daughters best friend. The toddling stage is probably the worst in that little ones can fall over dogs, or pull themselves up on them, but it soon passes and a child learns how to teach a dog with respect.
As you say your old girl is very unsettled by the change, I would imagine going to a new home would be stressful for her, if possible I would try and work through things. Perhaps put an old chair and a bit of carpet in the dogs area if you haven't already done that, and having the dogs through with you when your little one is in bed, etc. I hope you can work it out.
And Prose, brilliant news, congratulations.
 
CAYLA said:
I feel for your situation and my hat goes off to you, no wanting to just get her out (as they do) in these situations.
If im to be hnest I have 10 dogs and if I fell pregnant, which is a possibility, (well if I im ever brave enough to remove the coil) :rolleyes: then my dogs would remain, every one of them, because I just could not part with them, knowing they could end up anyhwere (and I rehome dogs) I would indeed be using my doggy room, which I do now and the dogs would be in there whilst I sorted sprog, then they would be with me in the main house again when sprog was sleeping or in bed, much as they are now when Im busy or sleeping off the night shift, they would also be around the sprog whenever I was there, so they would still spend alot of time with me, and looking sad is alot better than living in a worse situation altogether.
I would also crate the sprog :rolleyes:
My rotti would not go into the dog room, she is a mammys girls and is never far from me, so I doubt things would change with her, she would still sleep on the landing and be my shadow, I would just take care to not leave her alone with sprog incase it tormented her (then I would smack it backside) ;) *joke* I would when it was old enough to know though :rolleyes::D
I think maybe if u can indeed find her a home with a mature couple and u home check thoroughly and get a good feel for the home then let her go, otherwise start thinking les about her looking glum and more about "where she could end up"

Do u have a garage? could u convert that into a doggy room with heat, setees, big beds and have a run on (thats what mine is like)


Prose u are preggers :eek: how did I miss that :o congrats missus.:D
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Hi - We DO have a garage and yes I have thought of it but that feels like isolating them more. My husband has even suggested buying them a 'log cabin' stylee creation but I want them in the house. I agree of course, we either have to find trhe home or just 'live with it' and this is why I am posting here rather than taking her to the nearest adoption centre. As you say, a mature couple would be ideal for her.
 
Brownmare said:
I know how you feel, having a two and a half year old boy and three dogs myself and i don't blame you if you feel overwhelmed - having a toddler in the house makes your head spin sometimes :rolleyes:

I took a different approach to you and have never separated the dogs from the child (other than the fact that the dogs never go upstairs anyway). The one who I thought would be most trouble was the Jack Russell bitch and with her i have encouraged my son to "train" her so she will now sit, roll over and walk on lead for him (for treats only lol) but this has made her think he is useful :rolleyes: and worthy of respect. The other two, a whippet and lurcher, are totally at ease with him and he knows not to poke or prod them or tread on them etc (I am not averse to showing him how it feels if it happens to him...)

Of course there is always the risk of an accidental tail trodden on or tripped over but tbh i would expect my dogs to maybe yelp then scoot out of the way if i tripped over them so I wouldn't expect any different reaction if my son did. Does your girl snap at you if you tread on her?

I guess what I am trying to say is it will get better very soon and perhaps you could start to relax the segregation and see how it goes - both your child and your animals will learn the rules but you may have to repeat yourself a thousand times to get there :rolleyes: :D
Click to expand...

Hi

We did plan to not segregate but my son was premature so we had to be very careful. re accidentals the jack is very good at moving out the way the greys less so and they are SO big they knock him over themselves if they just turn round. At the moment relaxing the current method not a practical option really. tried a few weeks ago =Slate floors, child crying, dogs unable to follow command to sit (Greyhounds also rubbish at this), me trying to catch toddler..... Jack Russell thinking is all a huge joke and doing tricks.

It would be significantly easier if they all were as well trained as my Jack - got her as puppy and she is great but the bigger dogs really were difficult to train and still much of their response to commands is very slow and a bit hit and miss (in terms of what I call good anyway.)
 
How incredibly sad that you are thinking of rehoming an oldie like this :( I would agree with those who say have her PTS rather than make her go through the distress of being re-homed yet again at her age :(

Poor old girl :(
 
Tomato said:
How incredibly sad that you are thinking of rehoming an oldie like this :( I would agree with those who say have her PTS rather than make her go through the distress of being re-homed yet again at her age :(

Poor old girl :(
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I just wrote a long reply to this but computer ate it. But I will retype the bit about apologies if I am less coherent than yesterday as now have conjuntivitis to add to flu!

Anyway - I am sorry but I feel its a bit extreme to go from me considering whether there may be a 'perfect' home out there for my somewhat depressed dog to having her PTS!
The dog is NOT a rescue case I am enquiring to see if anyone genuinely wants to offer a 'better than she has now' home to an older dog - and some people prefer older dogs, she is nine and could live another five or six years so is not THAT old for a big dog.

She's not much of a poor old girl really, she's not even unwanted and if there is no better place for her than here, she stays here. I know for example a neighbour of mine would take her like a shot but for their older dog who wont mix and just maybe she will end up there if she loses her dog first. How can that be worse that killing her? I cannot for the life of me think that IF there is a similiar person with no restrictions looking for her type that giving her the opportunity to be happier is not a good thing? She can always come back here if it doesnt work! Thats not worse than putting her in kennels when we go on holiday even!

I have three good vet friends and can JUST imagine their faces if I asked them to kill her because I feel guilty and she wants a duvet!

Sorry again - didnt mean for this to become a debate at all, too ill to make sense anyway.
 
elsielouise said:
I just wrote a long reply to this but computer ate it. But I will retype the bit about apologies if I am less coherent than yesterday as now have conjuntivitis to add to flu!

Anyway - I am sorry but I feel its a bit extreme to go from me considering whether there may be a 'perfect' home out there for my somewhat depressed dog to having her PTS!
The dog is NOT a rescue case I am enquiring to see if anyone genuinely wants to offer a 'better than she has now' home to an older dog - and some people prefer older dogs, she is nine and could live another five or six years so is not THAT old for a big dog.

She's not much of a poor old girl really, she's not even unwanted and if there is no better place for her than here, she stays here. I know for example a neighbour of mine would take her like a shot but for their older dog who wont mix and just maybe she will end up there if she loses her dog first. How can that be worse that killing her? I cannot for the life of me think that IF there is a similiar person with no restrictions looking for her type that giving her the opportunity to be happier is not a good thing? She can always come back here if it doesnt work! Thats not worse than putting her in kennels when we go on holiday even!

I have three good vet friends and can JUST imagine their faces if I asked them to kill her because I feel guilty and she wants a duvet!

Sorry again - didnt mean for this to become a debate at all, too ill to make sense anyway.
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ETA (wouldn't let me do it the other way)

That I do really appreciate the support received in this thread.
 
What terribly emotive language you use - no-one is suggesting you ask your vet to "kill" her, simply to humanely put her to sleep. I can only think you have never had a dog PTS and therefore do not realise how peacefully they go.

I have had rescue greyhounds for around 12 years now, and I am well aware that it takes a new rescue dog between 6 and 12 months to adjust to a new home. During that time the dog is reserved, bewildered, and withdrawn. I personally would not contemplate putting a 9 year old greyhound through that; as far as I am concerned when I rehome a rescue greyhound it is with me for the whole of its life. Incidentally the average life expectancy of a greyhound is 11 years old, yes they can and do live to 14 or 15 as you suggest but that is not usual.
 
Tomato said:
What terribly emotive language you use - no-one is suggesting you ask your vet to "kill" her, simply to humanely put her to sleep. I can only think you have never had a dog PTS and therefore do not realise how peacefully they go.

I have had rescue greyhounds for around 12 years now, and I am well aware that it takes a new rescue dog between 6 and 12 months to adjust to a new home. During that time the dog is reserved, bewildered, and withdrawn. I personally would not contemplate putting a 9 year old greyhound through that; as far as I am concerned when I rehome a rescue greyhound it is with me for the whole of its life. Incidentally the average life expectancy of a greyhound is 11 years old, yes they can and do live to 14 or 15 as you suggest but that is not usual.
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As I said, I never wished for this to become a debate and NEVER for it to become a rehome or euthanasia debate! (I am amazed it was even suggested tbh) Regardless, in this case, PTS/killing; whatever you call it, its the same outcome = dead dog. The dog does not deserve or need to die, however peacefully. And yes, in thirty years of dog ownership I've been with a few at the end.

Finally, my experience of rehoming greyhounds is clearly different to yours so lets just leave it here please and thank you to all those who offered positive comments and suggestions. As the original post stated - I would still love for her to have an opportunity to spend however many years she has left in an environment that I KNOW (she is my dog after all) she would prefer.

Thank you
 
No one meant to upset you OP, but of course people are worried that such upheaval would unsettle an older dog. But as you say, you know your own dog.

I was the first person who said PTS so I will take responsibility for that comment and yes in my opinion, if it were my own dog, I would PTS because I know from experience, those lovely homes for older dogs are the exception, rather than the rule and I would go out of my mind with worry about where and how an old dog could end up - although of course on here we have had success stories before like the lovely Candy, what might have happened to her :( and I hope you get similar help.


Yes, my mother did 'kill' a dog because the alternative did not bear thinking about, either chained up in a yard as a guard dog or seriously hurting someone potentially, after we had passed him on. Different breed, different scenario I know.

You say she will be with you for as long as possible and that is the best thing - I have one myself who is much younger and I doubt she will grow old here, but like you, she will stay here as long as she needs to until I find a 5* home for her.
 
elsielouise said:
I just wrote a long reply to this but computer ate it. But I will retype the bit about apologies if I am less coherent than yesterday as now have conjuntivitis to add to flu!

Anyway - I am sorry but I feel its a bit extreme to go from me considering whether there may be a 'perfect' home out there for my somewhat depressed dog to having her PTS!
The dog is NOT a rescue case I am enquiring to see if anyone genuinely wants to offer a 'better than she has now' home to an older dog - and some people prefer older dogs, she is nine and could live another five or six years so is not THAT old for a big dog.

She's not much of a poor old girl really, she's not even unwanted and if there is no better place for her than here, she stays here. I know for example a neighbour of mine would take her like a shot but for their older dog who wont mix and just maybe she will end up there if she loses her dog first. How can that be worse that killing her? I cannot for the life of me think that IF there is a similiar person with no restrictions looking for her type that giving her the opportunity to be happier is not a good thing? She can always come back here if it doesnt work! Thats not worse than putting her in kennels when we go on holiday even!

I have three good vet friends and can JUST imagine their faces if I asked them to kill her because I feel guilty and she wants a duvet!

Sorry again - didnt mean for this to become a debate at all, too ill to make sense anyway.
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sent you a pm
 
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