Unhappy livery clients. What should I do?

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Pink Gorilla

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I run an extremely small livery yard. It is really my own personal stables with three liveries to provide a bit of income. They have recently called a yard meeting with me because they are unhappy about certain aspects. They come from big comptetiotion yards, despite being just happy hackers themselves. Anyway some of the things they are asking for are things either beyond my control, or budget. Such as drainage stone putting in the poached gateways because it may pull their horses shoes off. We have clay soil and each horse is one once acre each, however the liveries all section their paddocks off much smaller and slowly strip graze. Two of the liveries horses go in together, so they strip graze one of their fields at a time. There sometimes is water accumulating on the surface of the field too. It used to be a flood risk area hence why the previous land owner went bankrupt, but since my father in law bought the land, he put extensive underground drainage in. But it still does gather some water. One of the liveries has a laminitic horse and doesn’t like us fertilising their paddock once a year. But we feel this is necessary, as we didn’t do it last year and her paddock suffered. Also because it is such a new crop of grass (only sewn two years ago), the grass is still rather sparse. Hence why we feel the need to also top it once a year, which they don’t like us doing either. A starvation paddock of there’s was becoming extremely poached as it had two horses on such a small area (one of which has never had laminitis) and I asked them to make the section a little bigger and I was accused of caring more about the land than a horses metabolic needs. This is not true, I am a horse lover through and through and would never ask anyone to do something with their horse to put it at risk. My own horse has cushings, so I have to limit his sugar intake. Are these reasonable requests, or should I stand firm and say no to them? We don’t have a big budget as I am a stay at home Mum and my partner works for a small wage on his dad’s Farm (his dad has loaned us the field so I had somewhere to keep my horse and do a little livery business). I really want to be fair and not unreasonable, but I feel I can’t possibly meet their expectations and I’m worried they’ll leave. I’m also scared to go down my own yard as I feel it’s them against me. Please Can I have some advice?
 
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Let them pay for their own stone if you spread it for them.

I don’t see that you need to fertilise the paddock of a laminitic.

Not sure what the problem with topping is?

Get different liveries if they are making you miserable.
 
A difficult situation. I run a small yard and am also on clay so my first thought is that having just 1 acre per horse is going to be a problem by mid winter as it will get very muddy and not just the gateways so however hard you try the land will suffer and not look it's best, much the same in summer if they restrict in any way, mine gets bare in places and does recover without any fertiliser which I will not use because of the laminitis risk.

I know that having just a few DIY liveries will barely be worth it financially by the time everything is taken into account so would suggest if you want to keep some income and remain in more control you offer a full grass or part livery service which will bring in more from one or two with less hassle and less pressure on your limited grazing.
 
The first thing is you have to drop the scared bit you can not run a livery and be a shrinking violet .Bluntly your the yard owner not their friend .
I don't think the liverys requests are that unreasonable ,sorting gateways is something I do here all the time, every year in a clay place you will be doing something .
Fertiliser and horses ...I am not a fan I do sometimes use it but only the slow release type you could swop to using somethat just add nutrients IME this works well .
You can stop fields getting wet when it rains .
There's also the question of cost because realism has to prevail if you don't charge a lot there's no spare money for things like stone how ever if you keep on top of things like that the place will soon be a mess .Are you charging the correct rate for the area how does what you provide compare with other liverys around you this is a buisiness you need to understand and know your market .
Topping is a good thing but you have to provide them somewhere else to put their horses for a period after it's done .
Livery with turnout in winter is in short supple if they leave you will find others .
You need to embrace that dealing with stuff like this is part of running a yard and you have to be fair but firm and not afraid to show the door to those who you can't work on with .
I am also not sure what you are getting at about them being happy hackers who used to be at competition type livery but happy hackers are just as exacting when it comes to what they expect for their horses as riders who compete .
 
All you need to do is say, "this is the way we run our yard, if it isn't the way you want your horse to live, please feel free to find somewhere else for your horse. I will accept your notice whenever you like" You will find liveries who want what you offer but I would say yo need more than one acre per horse on clay.
 
As a YO I would listen to them and call another meeting very soon. Say you have listened to their complaints and say you are taking control of the situation. as from now all horses will go into a communal paddock of 3 acres in size this will mean 1 gateway. there will be no strip grazing. you will pay to sort out the gateway with hardcore but livery price will go up by £5 per week. Then say they are of course free to go elsewhere. new regime beings next weekend. and no fertilizer. topping is good it encourages grass growth and keeps down weeds. tell them to leave if they keep moaning.
 
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I have a very similar yard and I did put hardcore down in the gateways because the clay soil was just gets so deep and sticky so I can understand the concern it was a right PITA but if you think it's not an issue then stick to your guns, if they continue whining tell them that turnout will be restricted to "save the fields" they may put up and shut up then!
 
FfionWinnie said:
Let them pay for their own stone if you spread it for them.

I don’t see that you need to fertilise the paddock of a laminitic.

Not sure what the problem with topping is?

Get different liveries if they are making you miserable.
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Do they rotate fields or do they each stick to the same one all the time?
I agree, I'd not be happy with fertiliser being applied to a laminitic's field, especially as it sounds like they are working hard to control it's grass intake.
Ditto topping, this will encourage fresh new sweet growth, they may be happy grazing down the longer stalky grass - so in effect the grass will get 'topped', but by pony rather than tractor.
Would grass mats work in the gateways? Are they cheaper than stone?
 
We offer an indoor barn to store equipment etc, a small locked rack room, a 12x12 timber stable, an acre per horse and free straw. The price we ask is average for the area and facilities, as I’ve done my market research. We offered 1acre per horse as that’s the minimum recommendation by the BHS, and most livery yards around us actually offer half that size, so we thought that was ample. Although in hindsight perhaps the larger paddocks would have been better for the soil type. But I don’t think they’d use them anyway! At the moment the two horses together are sectioned off in about one fifth of an acre, rather than being allowed the full acre each and the other livery’s horse is very slowly strip grazed and has only ever been on about two thirds of the field at once. It is only the gateways and front fence line that get poached. Not too badly, at the very worst it gets ankle deep. The rest of the field stays in good condition, but sometimes a shallow amount of water sits on the top in the odd patch (not the whole field) during heavy rainfall. My partner has said he will put some drainage stone in the gateways, I just hope they don’t moan about stones getting caught in shoes or something afterwards. My partner is very adamant about applying fertilizer as he doesn’t want weeds, or non-planted varieties of grass to take over, but he does use a slow release type and only puts a very light scattering on the fields. Not as much as he would like to. He doesn’t do it more than once a year either.
 
I agree with the points above, but it would also depend on what diy services you outlined in the yard agreement. They do all have a copy of the yard agreement??? For instance does it include use of a school, are they expected to clean the hay barn after themselves, poo picking, sweep up etc. It also depends on what you are charging for diy. Sometimes, and NOT everyone but just sometimes DIY liveries expect top notch facilities for as little money as possible. Its important you outline exactly what they can expect from you for DIY and what you expect from them. In writing...and signed by all parties.
I absolutely agree with using one field, shared grazing, one gateway in your present circumstances. When I had DIYs I always gave individual grazing and it was the DIYs who were responsible for keeping it in good order, but they always got a 2.5 acre field between two. Poo picking was not optional, they had to do it but they strip grazed and kept in good order. We topped and tidied as necessary, no fertilizer as our grazing is quite lush.
Once you are happy you have all agreements in place and everyone is clear, then you can say " and this is how we are going on from here. I hope you will all feel happy enough to stay but you must all do what is right for you". AND STOP BEING SCARED TO GO INTO YOUR OWN YARD!!!! (and good luck, its not funny when you feel outnumbered)
 
LincsLady22 said:
We offer an indoor barn to store equipment etc, a small locked rack room, a 12x12 timber stable, an acre per horse and free straw. The price we ask is average for the area and facilities, as I’ve done my market research. We offered 1acre per horse as that’s the minimum recommendation by the BHS, and most livery yards around us actually offer half that size, so we thought that was ample. Although in hindsight perhaps the larger paddocks would have been better for the soil type. But I don’t think they’d use them anyway! At the moment the two horses together are sectioned off in about one fifth of an acre, rather than being allowed the full acre each and the other livery’s horse is very slowly strip grazed and has only ever been on about two thirds of the field at once. It is only the gateways and front fence line that get poached. Not too badly, at the very worst it gets ankle deep. The rest of the field stays in good condition, but sometimes a shallow amount of water sits on the top in the odd patch (not the whole field) during heavy rainfall. My partner has said he will put some drainage stone in the gateways, I just hope they don’t moan about stones getting caught in shoes or something afterwards. My partner is very adamant about applying fertilizer as he doesn’t want weeds, or non-planted varieties of grass to take over, but he does use a slow release type and only puts a very light scattering on the fields. Not as much as he would like to. He doesn’t do it more than once a year either. As I said, he didnt fertilise their field at all last year at their request, but the grass really suffered over the winter due to extreme over strip grazing.
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Personally I'd be unhappy about individual turnout (presumably the strip grazed horse and your own are both alone?) - you'll always find people with different preferences and you're unlikely to _ever_ be perfect for any livery. That is just how humans are. It doesn't mean you can't be a really *good* YO.

But, as you have individual turnout at the moment, and the liveries are anyway beginning to pair horses up, could you use it to help sort out the grass management situation?

My limited understanding is that fertilising is a really lousy idea for horses and whilst your partner may want lovely green uniform lawns horses won't benefit from them. But it isn't quite as bad if they are kept off it for a time, no? As a compromise could you consider putting your own horse in with the lone livery and asking your partner to fertilise only the two unused fields each time? Similarly with topping. If you have four fields and four horses (who are all, presumably, stabled at some points at least over winter - e.g. in during the day/out at night?) I'm thinking that gives you two unused fields at any one point that can be fertilised/topped/rested and left for a few months? Someone on here with more experience than me could probably suggest what to be done when and if you want to use the wettest ones to get trashed over winter or try to keep them on the drier ones then etc etc.

Gateways are up to you to decide on (although if you do pairs turn out you'll only need to fix two gates for the winter paddocks?); asking for a pen to be made bigger will probably not make much difference to your grass but annoy (and worry!) your clients. But these all seem like sort-able issues one way and another?

Importantly this is a public forum and you've given enough details to be recognisable so don't be surprised if your liveries come to the meeting having read this.

Good luck. Honestly it sounds like a pretty amazing life to be leading.
 
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Depends what you charge but I would be telling them you can do (some of) the works but that will mean their rent will have to double. Might concentrate their minds!
 
Sorry to read that you are having trouble.

Life is too short. You should be enjoying your lively set up. Find different liveries. Even if you do these jobs it sounds to mensure as tho they will demand more x
 
2 horses on about 1/5 of an acre? I wouldn't stand for that. tell them to take the fence down immediately. my 2 horses are on 5 acres now on 21/2 acres in the spring and summer. totally ridicules what you are putting up with. I still think the fertilizer is the big issue here. STOP putting fert on. the grass sound too rich for horses from what you are posting. weeds can be kept in check by mowing them off. they are horses not cows or sheep the ground doesn't need fert it will cause laminitis.
 
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Are they DIY or full liveries? If DIY then if you really do your sums you will find you are making next to no money in any case. My friend charged £25 per week and by the time she worked out water and electricity use, insurance, rates, and maintenance, she was actually making a loss.
 
Downton Dame said:
2 horses on about 1/5 of an acre? I wouldn't stand for that. tell them to take the fence down immediately. my 2 horses are on 5 acres now on 21/2 acres in the spring and summer. totally ridicules what you are putting up with. I still think the fertilizer is the big issue here. STOP putting fert on. the grass sound too rich for horses from what you are posting. weeds can be kept in check by mowing them off. they are horses not cows or sheep the ground doesn't need fert it will cause laminitis.
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And if those horses are laminitic prone good doers?
Mine lives on fresh air, I don't know what acreage she is on but she is strip grazed along a narrow margin of my paddock (approx 5-7m x 40m at the moment) . If I were told I must turn her out on 2 to 5 acres then I'd have to move because she WOULD become obese and be at risk of laminitis.
 
I'd have one big paddock and a track round the outside for the lammi prone etc. The track will get trashed but the paddock in the middle will be fine and can be split to be rested. That way you could just do one gateway. Everyone should then be happy and actually you could charge more as track livery attracts a premium.
 
LincsLady22 said:
. My partner is very adamant about applying fertilizer as he doesn’t want weeds, or non-planted varieties of grass to take over, but he does use a slow release type and only puts a very light scattering on the fields. Not as much as he would like to. He doesn’t do it more than once a year either.
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And here is where you have a basic conflict between your partner and the horses' requirements. Whether the liveries are being too demanding or not, your grass management has to focus on horses' needs.

I wouldn't say never fertilise or weed as a stressed field won't help anyone but I would do some research on the best approach for horse friendly grazing. There are some weeds you definitely want to get rid of but diversity is actually a good thing for horses and ideally you want to be encouraging different varieties.

The mix you originally used may not be ideal, rye grass isn't great for horse generally but it's touch and quicker growing as well as being high is sugar so it turns up in grass seed marketed for horses. Sometimes mixes aimed at laminitics are a good place to start.

I haven't looked at the specific BHS recommendations but I remember being taught 1 acre per horse BUT a minimum of 4 acres overall to enable rest and rotation. These are also minimums and in very wet areas and giving wetter warmer winters, these may be a little optimistic. However as suggested consolidating some of the the turnout into bigger fields with more horses, could help you maintain the land. It will be easier to allow areas to regenerate naturally with some careful reseeding of poached areas. You can then decide if it is very wet, that only certain areas are used during wet times of year, allowing them to become poached but it keeps your other fields healthy. You can then fence off a bit for the laminitic in summer but you may need to accept this area may not look pretty.
 
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The 1 acre per horse is actually an average of sorts - I believe the original advice was 1/2 acre in summer and 2 in winter. Can't track down the link to that info at the moment.

We're on a small yard with clay soil and from now until about the end of Feb the horses will trash 3 paddocks. They are sacrifice paddocks to give them some daily turnout with piles of hay. Yard rules are in overnight to help preserve the ground, but the majority of the land is rested. If you've given your liveries an acre each then to me its their responsibility to rest and rotate grazing as needed. Your partner will just have to deal with poached land if you're renting it to horse owners.

And I'd be fuming if my paddock was fertilised given I have 2 with metabolic problems!
 
I think your set up sounds great - I would tell them to lump it or leave it if they are not happy.

We have 4 acres for 3 horses, which we rotate during summer and then they are in one 2 acre paddock over winter which is very poor draining and gets very poached but manages to recover over summer. We fertilised it this year as it hadn't been done for a long time and we didn't seem to get much grass growth in summer. Two of the horses are heavy weight cobs which are very good doers, one is lami and the other a TB so we try to tailor to the needs of each horse and strip graze the cobs through summer.

We are on what sounds like a very similar yard to yours, apart from YO lives in Scotland and has no contribution to how the yard is run. If we go to her with an issue she just tells us to sort it ourselves. Sometimes that approach is great, and sometimes annoying as it would be good to have an 'authoritative figure' so to speak. Anything we want doing we more often than not pay extra for it ourselves. We pay £20 p/w livery so it's give and take.
 
I have had a couple of DIY liveries, I got rid of them.
I am on clay, and have 16 acres for at the moment eight, nearly all under 15 hands.
In summer its great, this year I had far too much grass which they are still eating now, in winter its a waterlogged swap. So to manage the land most of mine are in barns with half an acre thrash patch and the rest an acre thrash patch, which by the end of the winter looks like a war zone.
I do fertilise, I do spray and your partner is completely right. Horse care and field care are a constant battle, but it is possible to do both, and I think your liveries have no idea about costs and land management.
I have had one field gate way drained and two foot of stone put in, and really it made no difference, the mud just went further back as the stone acted as a dam. Now its getting wetter I put an electric fence corral round the gateway, but the mud is further back just not falling over mud round the gate.
I have one area each year I do not put fertiliser on, this is my, if we get a good year grass wise, safe place for my fatties, because it changes every year the grass never really get demolished and the winter swamp gets reseeded with the cheapest grass ever which greens it up for the summer ready to be thrashed again.

I would sit down with your partner and work out finances, how much do you actually make from these people and decide whether its worth the ag. I get the feeling they have no idea what they really want, if it was weed strewn desert, I sure you would be criticised because it looked a mess and wonder why they were paying for grazing.

If it was me I would get rid of them all, they will never be happy. There is not enough profit in it to make them happy and if you give in you be having nipping at you for ever more. Its your yard, its on clay live with it. I assume all the land around is clay so they could pull a shoe out hacking.
Its your home/yard, they are making you feel unhappy, they can move you can not.
 
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I'm afraid your livery is right and you just can't fertilise a laminitic's field. If your partner wants good looking fields, you need to graze sheep rather than horses. I would agree that a larger area during winter would save your grazing, but it seems that your liveries feel that their current space is too much if two horses are on 1/5 of an acre. No wonder your fields get poached!
 
Leo Walker said:
I'd have one big paddock and a track round the outside for the lammi prone etc. The track will get trashed but the paddock in the middle will be fine and can be split to be rested. That way you could just do one gateway. Everyone should then be happy and actually you could charge more as track livery attracts a premium.
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I was thinking this too ^^^^
 
Honestly, if you feel uncomfortable going to the yard that says it all. There are sensible people looking for livery, it sounds like you have potentially got a good set up for the right people. Might be easier with 1/2 with more than one horse? I'd be inclined to say to the present lot that you are sorry you can't accommodate them, then look for more suitable clients. Expecting to have 2 horses on 1/5 acre in winter in the UK is madness, I wouldn't allow it.
Re. the gateways, we do put hardcore down and it does help, it takes a few months to bed in properly, so can be pretty poached to begin with but eventually it firms up. Yes, the muddy area then moves back but at least you can get in and out of the gates.
 
An acre per horse isn't really enough on clay soil with all year turn out. When you say they are strip grazing have they started at the front of the field or the back? If the front that will make the gateway worse whereas if they start at the back the gateway will regularly move forward and not be so bad. That said I dont think wanting hardcore is unreasonable.

If your fields aren't getting rested then I guess you will need fertiliser although I agree with them that I would be wary and would want to be off the field for a couple of months
 
Maintaining grazing for good doers and so that it doesn't start looking like the somme in the middle of winter on clay is a balancing act. We manage 4 acres for 2, in summer we have masses have grass, in winter we use it as foggage to mostly protect the ground though any bad patches do always come back because it grows so well.

It does sound like the trouble you will have is that these unrotated paddocks are going to become horse sick and weedy pretty quickly with the current management so although having been at livery where pretty fields were rated a bit too highly (excessive topping and fertilising) there is a balance between that and trashing the place to be mud that is going to cause injuries, at which point making an all weather turnout and feeding hay would seem a better option.
 
ester said:
Maintaining grazing for good doers and so that it doesn't start looking like the somme in the middle of winter on clay is a balancing act. We manage 4 acres for 2, in summer we have masses have grass, in winter we use it as foggage to mostly protect the ground though any bad patches do always come back because it grows so well.

It does sound like the trouble you will have is that these unrotated paddocks are going to become horse sick and weedy pretty quickly with the current management so although having been at livery where pretty fields were rated a bit too highly (excessive topping and fertilising) there is a balance between that and trashing the place to be mud that is going to cause injuries, at which point making an all weather turnout and feeding hay would seem a better option.
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We have summer and winter paddocks, we also swap winter paddocks (so you don't have the same person in the furthest paddock every year).
The down side of this is that if you really look after your paddock, you don't get the benefit of that care next year. You might get one that wasn't well cared for.
On the plus side (for the YO) you get a mixture of good / poor doers etc on the paddocks over the years. Some years a paddock will be trashed, some years it will have an easy winter.
 
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