Unlearning what you "know"...

[SatansLittleHelper]

This is sort of a spin off from YCBM's social licencing post, just thinking about training and tack etc.
For those who have been in horses a long time, what things have to had to unlearn that we're once a given or common knowledge etc??
Having had various napping and anxiety issues with one of my boys I decided that I didn't want to "fight" him and enlisted the help of a lovely lady who is an equine behaviourist. It's been such a lightbulb moment for me....just learning that horses literally do not have the brain capacity or even the part of the brain for "naughty" behaviour has dramatically changed the way I interact with my boys. I've never felt truly comfortable with the "you must MAKE him/her do it" and "don't put up with any crap" mentality but felt that perhaps I was just a bit of a pony patter lol. But I have quite often ploughed over what my horses are trying to tell me because I was always taught you must be the "boss" etc.
One of the phrases I hate most in society is "but we've always done it this way", without having the openness of mind to concede there may be better ways to do something.
We know so much more about horse's pain cues, how different tack works, how correct veterinary care helps etc...I just don't understand how we can not want to embrace new knowledge wholeheartedly?? Having to unlearn stuff is very hard sometimes, I'm still not getting it right alot of the time but I'm working very hard to change my own mentality and I feel my horses are happier for it

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I do wonder who taught some posters their skills.

I had my 1st riding lessons in the 1960s and was taught to work with the pony/horse. Subsequently I learned a great deal from contemporaries of those RS owners (all members of the same Hunt), again working with the horse/pony. People who grew up working with horses on the farm know perfectly well that you get a better result from understanding the horse's character and working with that. When your ponies can teach a variety of riders, including RDA, go hunting, showing and sj, you know that your training is on the right lines.

I can only think that in the intervening years for some reason, some trainers have forgotten about working with the horse and been determined to.impose their will regardless.

 

[windand rain]

It wasn't hard to unlearn my starting point which was basically to get on and go. It was learning pressure/release that was my light bulb moment. That subtle cues were all that was needed. Shouting is something I hate unless disabled animals are not deaf unlike a lot of humans

 

[View]

I'm another that was taught from the start to work with your horse/pony/mule/donkey. Always have done and always will. Was always drummed into me that if I didn't get the desired result, think about why and ask the question a different way. Equines are stronger than us - we cannot force them to do what they don't want to do.

PaS hits the nail on the head that some people have forgotten that we work with our partners, not impose our will.

 

[Jenko109]

Phrases like 'hes taking the piss' were regularly banded around when I was a teenager.

Looking back on it, the reason why Rider A could get a tune out of a pony and the same pony napped with Rider B, was no doubt nothing more than the pony trusting the leadership of rider A and not feeling that same sense of security with rider B.

Furthermore, opening up a can of whoop ass on a pony who will not cross the water, may get you across the water faster, but he has not learnt that the water is nothing to be scared of. Firm but fair, allowing time for them to figure it out for themselves somewhat, will always trump compliance created through fear.

 

[ycbm]

I learned in a bad riding school, kept my first horse in another bad riding school and then in a very traditional hard hunting yard where the horses were simply machines. I've had to unlearn almost everything from how I sit on a horse to how to feed it, and I'm still unlearning as science progresses.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I didn't have the best start the first riding school barely taught you to stay on then you went on hacks, so I didn't have the first idea how to ride properly for years and little knowledge of how to care for them.

I had a friend that had ponies when I was a kid 2 were in her garden her Mum taught me alot and I rode there ponies and she started to teach me properly, I even did a few shows with them and i learnt alot.

I had various yard jobs some with some not very nice dealers couldn't do it anymore so did other things for years had a break from horses, then shared one then got a great job with a lovely lady that really taught me how to school properly and how to run a full livery yard properly.

I still do so much today that originally came from working and riding with her I think I owe her alot she was a very good example of how to do things right.

I think things have moved on and I would like to say I'm pretty open minded though abd happy to be corrected on things.

 

[Cortez]

When I started riding and training Spanish horses I had to basically totally revamp the way I rode and trained. This has meant two things, 1. I had to be a very still, subtle, generous rider. 2. I don't want to ride most other people's horses. Oh, and a 3rd thing - I can no longer bear to watch modern dressage.

 

[sassandbells]

Not sure if this is really relevant but I learned from a lovely lady, who always put the horse first and the sport second. She taught me to observe & question everything. Sadly, she wasn’t an instructor and while she could teach me a lot I still went to various different instructors for lessons. The “he’s taking the piss, push him on” phrase was one I heard regularly and pops into my head a lot when a horse I’m riding shows some undesirable behaviours..

That being said, I was incredibly lucky to grow up with access to a lot of resources (and this forum!) so every time I heard this phrase (and many others) I’d go and look into it to try and understand what was happening a bit better. I still occasionally think it and start to try and push through, depending on the behaviour, and sometimes it takes me a while after to really sit back and try and unpick what happened to figure it out.

That’s probably the biggest thing I’ve had to unlearn.. well that, and the fact I can’t do the same jump off turns as I could when I was on my little 12.2 jumping machine

 

[paddy555]

I do wonder who taught some posters their skills.

for me no one. My dad was anti horse, I had to pay for any rides myself so very limited there and my parents did nothing to encourage me towards horses.
I hated that and would have loved proper lessons, stable/horse care lessons etc. Pony club would have been beyond my wildest dreams.

I liked watching show jumping until I heard about rapping and then I lost interest so little there to unlearn. I've never really had any horsy friends so I never get drawn into the acknowledged way of doing things.

It had it's good side however because I had nothing to unlearn and I had to learn quickly once I was surrounded by horses and then got my own. So I most likely did what seemed practical and I could afford. It left me very open to the ideas of "what is the point of this, why are we doing it, is there a better way"

My first horse removed anyone who showed the slightest arrogance or know it all but I managed to stay on him so he must have taught me to work with a horse. I couldn't stop him so got rid of the bridle and found I could so he must have taught me to reduce tack if there is a problem not add more.

I had never learned or had horses conventionally in a stable yard so nothing there to unlearn.
I was free to soak up stuff that interested me.

 

[littleshetland]

When I started riding and training Spanish horses I had to basically totally revamp the way I rode and trained. This has meant two things, 1. I had to be a very still, subtle, generous rider. 2. I don't want to ride most other people's horses. Oh, and a 3rd thing - I can no longer bear to watch modern dressage.

I made a switch from mostly riding WBs to acquiring my first ever PRE nearly 3 years ago now....he seems to be at least 50% smarter than any other horse I've ever had and has taught me so much about horses. Thats not to say any of the other horses I've been lucky enough to have in my life were 'lacking' in anyway at all..far from it, but my PRE is showing me a different way.

 

[stangs]

I do wonder who taught some posters their skills.

Excuse my being a numpty, but are you trying to compliment those posters or is this an insult?

 

[SEL]

I've definitely had to unlearn the "make him do that" and "kick on" mentality

Very much the riding instructor approach when I was a kid - UK & Germany. I thought I'd got away from all that then the Appy came into my life with her muscle problems and I really had to take her corner from the "pressure / release" crowd. I feel ashamed that there were times when I didn't - but she'll forgive me for pony nuts.

Also rein contact. I was pretty balanced but working in Australia where they were used to being on the buckle at all paces really taught me the difference between thinking you had a secure seat and really having a secure seat. Fortunately I was never a yanky, yanky head down rider but I certainly wasn't the most tactful.

 

[smolmaus]

I had the benefit of an excellent, horse-focused RS instructor from I was a child. When I took a long break and came back to riding with other instructors (she has mostly retired and is too far away from where I live now) it was a bit of a shock to the system.

I know I don't want to ride like the horse is a machine or a manipulative child that needs to be forced to comply but if I didn't have a handful of friends who also have been taught better it would be so easy to fall into those patterns. Its so common.

I caught myself at it this week when pony did a huge spook sideways at a white electrical box that has been beside the arena ALWAYS and nearly had me off and herself tangled in a cavaletti. She scared me. So I try and make her go past it, shes being stupid, more leg, stronger hand etc etc and we both end up even more stressed and flustered. That's me losing my temper because IM scared, it's not training. She's just on more grass this week, all the other horses are still in the field, the box is turned on because there's sheep in the field when it wasn't turned on all winter and is obviously making noises my deaf butt can't hear, I'm just adding more stress to the situation. These moments of disappointing myself are becoming less frequent and pony did forgive me, I did better the next time, but it is hard to look at yourself and admit you f-ed up when almost everyone else is telling you that you were right and to just make her do what you want.

 

[Fieldlife]

I know I don't want to ride like the horse is a machine or a manipulative child that needs to be forced to comply but if I didn't have a handful of friends who also have been taught better it would be so easy to fall into those patterns. Its so common.

I caught myself at it this week when pony did a huge spook sideways at a white electrical box that has been beside the arena ALWAYS and nearly had me off and herself tangled in a cavaletti. She scared me. So I try and make her go past it, shes being stupid, more leg, stronger hand etc etc and we both end up even more stressed and flustered. That's me losing my temper because IM scared, it's not training. She's just on more grass this week, all the other horses are still in the field, the box is turned on because there's sheep in the field when it wasn't turned on all winter and is obviously making noises my deaf butt can't hear, I'm just adding more stress to the situation. These moments of disappointing myself are becoming less frequent and pony did forgive me, I did better the next time, but it is hard to look at yourself and admit you f-ed up when almost everyone else is telling you that you were right and to just make her do what you want.

This is so familiar and so easy to revert to. I can relate. We can only keep trying to do better.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Also rein contact. I was pretty balanced but working in Australia where they were used to being on the buckle at all paces really taught me the difference between thinking you had a secure seat and really having a secure seat. Fortunately I was never a yanky, yanky head down rider but I certainly wasn't the most tactful.

It's amazing how many people don't realise they rely on balance through their hands and reins until they take them away.

 

[SEL]

It's amazing how many people don't realise they rely on balance through their hands and reins until they take them away.

And horses who aren't used to people hanging on their gob can get very dangerous very quickly if their rider doesn't drop the reins.....

 

[palo1]

I was always taught that you must work with a horse, always act in it's best interest and respect their behavioural cues which are always telling us something (often about ourselves). Even the very old school breeder I learnt to ride with asserted those things and he was fairly keen on turning a profit on the horses he bred and trained. As for unlearning stuff...well., the only way that can happen is by listening to stuff, respecting other people's opinions and experiences and interrogating both your own and other's viewpoints in a critical but open minded way. That is actually far, far more difficult than many people realise and the vast majority of people do seem to quite enjoy living in their echo chambers socially, culturally, politically etc. Equestrianism is very 'norm-positive' and particularly here in the UK which I think is a bit sad as we have a great deal to learn from other horse cultures. Mostly what we seem to do is dismiss or deride them. But of course if you have respect for people who approach things differently as a starting point, then it is not so difficult in my experience.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Excuse my being a numpty, but are you trying to compliment those posters or is this an insult?

Neither it's a statement of fact.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I had the benefit of an excellent, horse-focused RS instructor from I was a child. When I took a long break and came back to riding with other instructors (she has mostly retired and is too far away from where I live now) it was a bit of a shock to the system.

I know I don't want to ride like the horse is a machine or a manipulative child that needs to be forced to comply but if I didn't have a handful of friends who also have been taught better it would be so easy to fall into those patterns. Its so common.

I caught myself at it this week when pony did a huge spook sideways at a white electrical box that has been beside the arena ALWAYS and nearly had me off and herself tangled in a cavaletti. She scared me. So I try and make her go past it, shes being stupid, more leg, stronger hand etc etc and we both end up even more stressed and flustered. That's me losing my temper because IM scared, it's not training. She's just on more grass this week, all the other horses are still in the field, the box is turned on because there's sheep in the field when it wasn't turned on all winter and is obviously making noises my deaf butt can't hear, I'm just adding more stress to the situation. These moments of disappointing myself are becoming less frequent and pony did forgive me, I did better the next time, but it is hard to look at yourself and admit you f-ed up when almost everyone else is telling you that you were right and to just make her do what you want.

There are different ways of getting a horse to do what you want, that's the thing

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

There are different ways of getting a horse to do what you want, that's the thing

My sister and I share our horses, our first one, a gelding was straightforward to deal with and ride. After him we got 2 mares who were both quirky in their different ways, which meant that we had to work with them, rather than just get on and ride. Fortunately we had the good grounding from the RS, so looked for less obvious ways to do things.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

That’s probably the biggest thing I’ve had to unlearn.. well that, and the fact I can’t do the same jump off turns as I could when I was on my little 12.2 jumping machine

One of the first things I was taught was that horses are not machines!

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I've definitely had to unlearn the "make him do that" and "kick on" mentality

Me too. I never had any proper lessons, just put on a horse and rode. It was only really when I got my own that I began to learn and soon realised that trying to force a pony to behave only taught them more ways to evade you. Much better to work out what was going wrong and find a way round the problem. The owner of the RS I worked at came from a hunting family with polo connections. Not much subtlety there at all.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Well when I was in Pony Club (late '60's into early '70's) it was all very much a case of "Get on, kick on, and stay on". If you had the temerity to do an unscheduled dismount you were immediately hoiked back into the saddle and told to get on with it.

You had ONE saddle and that fitted everything. Everything! I remember it being common to see horses with white hair growing on their withers - all the vets back then were dealing with fistulous withers a lot; and it was also routine to see horses out in the hunting field having been Fired.

If your pony napped you were told to "use your whip". If it reared you were told to Get Off, Stay Off, and Ring Kennels. End of.

So yes, quite a bit to re-learn!

 

[palo1]

Me too. I never had any proper lessons, just put on a horse and rode. It was only really when I got my own that I began to learn and soon realised that trying to force a pony to behave only taught them more ways to evade you. Much better to work out what was going wrong and find a way round the problem. The owner of the RS I worked at came from a hunting family with polo connections. Not much subtlety there at all.

I think it's interesting how people have experienced learning in horse terms; there is a 'skill' approach where the intention seems to be mastery through method, mentoring and practice and a more technical/mechanical approach (this action=that result). Both can be appropriate of course but one of my total bug bears about equestrianism in the UK is that we NEVER refer to our own horse culture or history in teaching; it is always about riding the horse rather than understanding how we got where we are today. I get that this is a philosophical thing and not really appropriate for lots of learning riders but in other cultures there is a very proud knowledge and understanding of their history and that also informs learning, attitudes, expectations etc. I think we could learn from that; particularly where that embraces an understanding of the kind of relationship we want to have with horses. Our culture seems so acquisitive (trophies/rosettes etc) which is really contrary to what a great many riders seem to really want which is true connection as well as mastery of skill and understanding. Yet nowhere is that really taught. But back to how to unlearn; it is sometimes helpful to immerse yourself in a different approach before coming back to where you are now to reassess all that.

 

[Ceifer]

I was educated at a very strict BHS establishment. Very old fashioned (we wore shirts, ties and a sweatshirt as a uniform) and there was a hierarchy that basically educated junior students they were stupid and that you shouldn’t question anyone senior. It stuck with me for years that I was unworthy of questioning how things were done and if there was a better way.

The plus side to this was that the rider training was exemplary. Hours of no stirrups, lunge lessons, jumping with no reins.

 

[palo1]

I think it's interesting how people have experienced learning in horse terms; there is a 'skill' approach where the intention seems to be mastery through method, mentoring and practice and a more technical/mechanical approach (this action=that result). Both can be appropriate of course but one of my total bug bears about equestrianism in the UK is that we NEVER refer to our own horse culture or history in teaching; it is always about riding the horse rather than understanding how we got where we are today. I get that this is a philosophical thing and not really appropriate for lots of learning riders but in other cultures there is a very proud knowledge and understanding of their history and that also informs learning, attitudes, expectations etc. I think we could learn from that; particularly where that embraces an understanding of the kind of relationship we want to have with horses. Our culture seems so acquisitive (trophies/rosettes etc) which is really contrary to what a great many riders seem to really want which is true connection as well as mastery of skill and understanding. Yet nowhere is that really taught. But back to how to unlearn; it is sometimes helpful to immerse yourself in a different approach before coming back to where you are now to reassess all that.

I just wanted to add to this an example of what I mean...Mostly these days our equestrian culture is derived from a military one: as a result of 2 world wars requiring particular equestrian attitudes and skills (more WW1 than 2 but even then we had a whole host of equestrian attitudes as a result of WW2), where we needed soldiers to learn specific skills quickly and for particular purposes. This 'machine' of exposure, instruction and skill did work really well for that purpose and many people benefitted in lots of ways outside of the military from the efficiency of this approach but it kind of steamrollered much earlier, historic attitudes and experiences around horses and the development of skill for working with them and for leisure too. We have forgotten much of that due to the success of the military equestrian tradition which is relatively new. Perhaps if that history was taught as part of our equestrian eduction, people would challenge attitudes and approaches or consider earlier and more contemporary ideas. But because our history and culture isn't really considered or discussed in equestrianism here in the UK that never seems to be part of the dialogue.

 

[honetpot]

Where I grew up no one had lessons, and the only person who looked like the pictures in books,was someone who was taught to ride in the army. There were two books in the school library, and a tv series on learning to ride, and I could no understand why the very rough untrained ponies I rode did not respond. I was lucky that when I was sixteen I was taught to ride 'properly', learned about dressage, went to lecture by top riders, and learned it did work, but you have not only to teach yourself, but what ever you are riding first. Going back home was difficult because no one thought as I did, but the penny had dropped that I needed to train them to respond, and I had to be consistent, even if I was rubbish at it.
The last time I had BHS lessons, was about twenty years ago, just gauge how much I actually knew,even through it was supposed to be about stable management the horse and how it reacted to its environment was not really a factor, and I found it depressing. I find a lot of the BHS training is aimed at competition and passing exams, riding as a sport, that you have to be seen as winning at. I had a young horse and was asked by a pro what did I want it to do, my reply,'what ever it is good at and enjoys', was greeted with a laugh.
The ponies and horses that I have bought in that have issues have all at some time been pressured, they are generally not happy to see you, but they are so drilled they are often very obedient, but need a bit of thought in how they are handled. The ones I have had from two and for the rest of their life, were always happy to see you, easy to handle, and did the same amount of work.
I am not a softy, if a horse has a nice life, twenty two hours a day doing as it pleases, I expect it to be accepting, inline with it's training, for the two hours it has to be handled and 'worked'. Most problems are solvable without gadgets and getting cross, or spending hours lunging the legs off it. I think people just need to see a lot of horses, I was lucky that riding for a dealer as a child I had an endless supply, three that were my 'own' and spares that were fun to ride but not saleable. I saw how not to do it, it nearly always leads to more resistance, and then had the tools to try and solve the problem before it is one, even if I was no expert.
I think owning your own is often a curse, because you do not learn to adapt your riding and learn to understand the horse is like learning a foreign language, you may think you speak the same language, but the meaning is often lost in translation

 

[lynz88]

It's amazing how many people don't realise they rely on balance through their hands and reins until they take them away.

I was taught to ride without reins and mine rides on the buckle at all paces. It is how you are taught to ride in Canada....don't interfere with the horse! I "unlearned" this when I came over here and shared/rode other horses which is a real shame. Thankfully since bringing mine over we are back to mostly lllooonnngggg rein but due to a lot of injuries over the years, no longer have the position that I used to....sometimes don't even have the balance thanks to the pain (when it returns)....poor horse!

 

[Kaylum]

I learnt from books and my friends very fat pony that I would look after when she went on holiday. Couldn't get a saddle on it when she wasn't there as I didn't really know how to put it on. So rode bareback no riding hat. No thought about traffic or where I rode, I was only 9. Used to take it home 3 miles away across loads of main roads. Never thought about how dangerous it was to ride like that or whether the pony was bombproof as didn't know about things like that. Had no fear at all as hadn't thought about it. I would have been all over social media in todays world. "Whose child is riding that pony bareback down the main road without a hat?"