Unlearning what you "know"...

[Spotherisk]

I didn’t have many lessons as a child or teenager, my first ever canter and gallop was on a riding holiday when I was 11 - I thought you had to lean forwards a lot when you went fast, and I’m sure I gripped up, I certainly lost my stirrups a lot. In my 20’s I had some ‘proper’ lessons, I had no understanding that you could ask for canter, or that you sat for it etc.

In 1997 I bought my first horse, and I learnt a lot from books because there wasn’t an internet, You Tube etc etc. so I did things like build a double bridle and attach it to the newl post at the bottom of the stairs, and watch how the bits moved with my hand movements. Then I remembered this when I rode the horse in a double. I read an awful lot of books and squirrelled away tips from them all, trying them out when hacking (most of the yards I was at didn’t have a school), so me and my horse learnt together. Leg yield, shoulder fore, walk to canter were all read in books, then practised on byways and green lanes, alone. A lot of the things I did weren’t unlearning, they were self education because I couldn’t afford lessons, but I wanted to be the best I could for my lovely, generous, horse.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think the thing that clicked the most for me was a coach explaining that your relationship with a horse should be as close to a 50/50 partnership as possible - but you always want to hold the majority so you can overrule in a situation where you are able to see further / understand more than the horse does. So the ideal balance is actually 49/51, in favour of the rider.

Sometimes we start with an imbalance, and the rider holds greater authority over the horse but the art of a good partnership is to aim to get to that 49/51 balance.

In terms of what I have had to unlearn - generally the more basic “how to” tips in terms of position. Heels down, toes up, hand position etc. When I started to understand weight, balance and the line of contact that I was giving the horse, then I started to worry less about the rules and think more about the physics and the individual horse’s needs from a conformation and way of going perspective.

 

[toppedoff]

I think the thing that clicked the most for me was a coach explaining that your relationship with a horse should be as close to a 50/50 partnership as possible - but you always want to hold the majority so you can overrule in a situation where you are able to see further / understand more than the horse does. So the ideal balance is actually 49/51, in favour of the rider.

Sometimes we start with an imbalance, and the rider holds greater authority over the horse but the art of a good partnership is to aim to get to that 49/51 balance.

In terms of what I have had to unlearn - generally the more basic “how to” tips in terms of position. Heels down, toes up, hand position etc. When I started to understand weight, balance and the line of contact that I was giving the horse, then I started to worry less about the rules and think more about the physics and the individual horse’s needs from a conformation and way of going perspective.

thats super interesting, especially the 49/51

 

[Anna Clara]

It is a fascinating topic. I have ready about how existing thoughts and beliefs are what help us feel anchored in the world - when we know what we think about something I suppose we feel comfortable and like we know our place in that paragigm. And perhaps having to relearn something can be harder than learning at the first place? If all the letters changed place on a keyboard we may find learning to type harder again or driving on the other side of the road feels more unnatural than whichever side we started on - therefore harder to relearn something. I think when you ask people to change their way of thinking about horses you are almost ripping their roots out from underneath him which his hard, and messy and probably painful.

I didn't have horsey parents and throughout my teenage years rode a motley collection of rescue types and then youngsters with no pony club, no lessons, just some Heather Moffett and Kelly Marks books to guide me. I ended up known for helping local people with kids ponies that just needed some help getting back on the right track. I constantly used to balance a camera on the fence of the field I rode in to try and see if I was riding "correctly!" I've realised how lucky I was to have had very little outside influence on my relationship with the horses I had. I was just a teenager in a field, figuring things out. I do some backing and teaching work now and I just feel so many people have had so many "old school" influences and it is of course so hard to change the way you think when you have been paying professionals to help you think that way for years. I love working with people who are open to new ideas and these are mostly what many would disparagingly call novices or happy hackers. I know I look like one myself when I'm hacking out barefoot and bitless, often jumping off to walk my (previously very stressed, very tense, therefore turned out in a field for years) adopted dressage horse. In reality, I've team chased, hunted side saddle in Ireland, ridden out hundreds of event horses on the gallops, backed too many to remember, trained horses out in Kenya etc etc.

But I really feel so lucky that those roots from my time in a field trying my best for a horse I loved to death have given me such an open base to work from. And I feel sad that not everyone has that and that it makes it much harder to change thought patterns.

I am of course constantly learning and constantly doubting whether or not I'm doing the right thing which is uncomfortable and I can see why people might reject doing that. It can feel like I'm a bit lost and not sure what my roots are. I do understand how hard it is to maybe recognise that there are things we need to change in a world we have been immersed in and built our foundations in.

 

[Love]

apparently no one feeds garlic anymore..?!

edited to add: just to clarify, I don't feed garlic and am aware of the research - just joining in with the nature of the post!

 

[Cortez]

apparently no one feeds garlic anymore..?!

Why would anyone feed garlic in the first place? It’s a gut irritant (science).

 

[Love]

Why would anyone feed garlic in the first place? It’s a gut irritant (science).

I agree! But back in the day everyone I knew fed it to keep the flies off

 

[Tarragon]

I think that my biggest light bulb moment is the understanding of how in hand training and teaching the horse leads to lighter aids when ridden. I think I learnt how to ride using my seat and aids as a rider, a bit like how to operate a machine, without any finesse. If a horse had been schooled well, it kind of worked. My enjoyment in riding always came about when the horse and I wanted to do the same thing, like having a gallop, or jumping a log. So I appreciated that the best times happened when we were in tune. What I lacked was any ability to understand how to create that relationship.

 

[Goldenstar]

apparently no one feeds garlic anymore..?!

Well that something good it’s not good for horses .

 

[Love]

(Just to clarify - I don't feed garlic.... was just joining in the with the nature of the post )

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

@ Anna Clara makes a very good point. We should all be open to learning all the time, then we might not get so stuck in the tramlines of 'we've always done it this way'.

 

[Cortez]

I agree! But back in the day everyone I knew fed it to keep the flies off

Feeding garlic was a fad for a while, it was not a traditional thing (I’m quite old, so “traditional” goes waaay further back), and doesn’t even work for it’s supposed purpose either.

 

[SEL]

apparently no one feeds garlic anymore..?!

edited to add: just clarifying I don't feed garlic - just joining in with the nature of the post!

I know a few people who insist on it for the flies despite the research. "I've always fed it and my horses have always been fine"

 

[ycbm]

@ Anna Clara makes a very good point. We should all be open to learning all the time, then we might not get so stuck in the tramlines of 'we've always done it this way'.

This forum has been my main learning source for that. I can't think of any instruction I've paid for which has hugely challenged the way I keep and manage horses, and only small increments on how I ride. This forum, especially in the last few years, has turned my thinking on its head.
.

 

[J&S]

Keeping horses (or any other animals) puts you into a constant state of learning. Watching my horses, or those of other people, is in itself educational, one can start to anticipate their next move just from very small indications. This also becomes massively useful to be able to pick up quickly changes that might mean a problem is on the way, help one choose one horse from another as a future purchase from a herd etc etc. Any thing that you can learn about or from horses can be useful, even if it means you discard it later as science moves on. (but, lets face it, over my life time (70 + yrs) science has changed its mind on many matters!). So I do not feel I have had to unlearn any thing, I simply keep on adding to a pool of knowledge and understanding.

 

[equinerebel]

I have read this forum for maybe a year now, and only just joined, but I read as a guest with great interest the many recent threads about social license. I think I first started questioning what I was asking from horses when I became vegetarian many years ago and started questioning my relationship with animals in general. But it wasn't until I really looked into the specifics with horses, thanks to this forum, that my relationship with them and horse sports totally changed.

 

[Ossy2]

I don’t think it should be a case about unlearning as such it’s a case of evolving knowledge about these animals. There are things I’ve learned in the past that I would not do now as knowledge evolves, do I want to unlearn those things, no, as they are part of my journey to knowing what I know now. There are things now that I think I wish I’d known that 5 years ago but hey ho I didn’t. There are also things now that I don’t agree with there you go.

 

[marmalade76]

I know a few people who insist on it for the flies despite the research. "I've always fed it and my horses have always been fine"

Yep, the feed shops are still well stocked with it and it's still on the ingredient lists of a fair few feeds so it's obviously still popular.

 

[canteron]

One of my favourite sayings is

“Tradition is just bullying by dead people”

Just because it’s always been done that way, doesn’t make it right. I love investigating new things and being open to new ideas. Working at liberty with my horses is the most amazing experience, and denied to my stick in the mud hunting diehards, poor them.

 

[humblepie]

A very interesting thread. My thought is that it’s evolving not unlearning. I think I had good horse values installed in me through non-horsey but sensible parents and pony club. First lot of riding was at a dealers yard but many of how they did things are still relevant albeit with a modern approach. I’ve fed a small amount of chaff before riding for years - not scientific on stomach ulcers but because it is routine that the horse has breakfast. In this case a small breakfast but mentally the horse has had their same routine. So getting to the same place a different way. Am very much still learning and hopefully developing

 

[Cortez]

One of my favourite sayings is

“Tradition is just bullying by dead people”

Just because it’s always been done that way, doesn’t make it right. I love investigating new things and being open to new ideas. Working at liberty with my horses is the most amazing experience, and denied to my stick in the mud hunting diehards, poor them.

May I just interject that not everything that is traditional is bad, and quite a lot of new thinking has been proven to be on a sliding scale of not quite right/effective, through plain bonkers, to downright harmful (rollkur, anyone?).

 

[ycbm]

A very interesting thread. My thought is that it’s evolving not unlearning.

I had to unlearn some stuff I was taught in bad places. I was taught to ride being able to see my toe in front of my knee sitting in a chair seat. At the same place I was taught that if a horse puffs out its stomach when you go to do up the girth you knee it hard in the belly. Later when I had my own I was taught that you can finish hunting on the last meet day in March and throw fully clipped horses straight out into the field when you get them home, unrugged. That every horse needs 2 bucket feeds a day. That oats are the work of the devil. That turnout is unnecessary. That horses ridden on roads have to wear shoes. That you can use one saddle for every horse with a prolite pad (that came from a household name event rider of the 70/80s and was said to me by them around 1997.). Etc etc, the list is pretty long.

 

[humblepie]

I had to unlearn some stuff I was taught in bad places. I was taught to ride being able to see my toe in front of my knee sitting in a chair seat. At the same place I was taught that if a horse puffs out its stomach when you go to do up the girth you knee it hard in the belly. Later when I had my own I was taught that you can finish hunting on the last meet day in March and throw fully clipped horses straight out into the field when you get them home, unrugged. That every horse needs 2 bucket feeds a day. That oats are the work of the devil. That turnout is unnecessary. That horses ridden on roads have to wear shoes. That you can use one saddle for every horse with a prolite pad (that came from a household name event rider of the 70/80s and was said to me by them around 1997.). Etc etc, the list is pretty long.

I can see the unlearning in that although it is also moving on and questioning. I was taught to grip with the knees as was the thing back then so yes have had to unlearn or evolve my riding.

 

[J&S]

I was taught to grip with the knees as was the thing back then

Aha, but I had a series of lessons with Pat Burgess was back in time and to quote her........." Forget your dressage seats, I don't mind if you grip with your knees, calves or thighs but you can't ride at a big fence without doing one of these."

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I had to unlearn some stuff I was taught in bad places. I was taught to ride being able to see my toe in front of my knee sitting in a chair seat. At the same place I was taught that if a horse puffs out its stomach when you go to do up the girth you knee it hard in the belly. Later when I had my own I was taught that you can finish hunting on the last meet day in March and throw fully clipped horses straight out into the field when you get them home, unrugged. That every horse needs 2 bucket feeds a day. That oats are the work of the devil. That turnout is unnecessary. That horses ridden on roads have to wear shoes. That you can use one saddle for every horse with a prolite pad (that came from a household name event rider of the 70/80s and was said to me by them around 1997.). Etc etc, the list is pretty long.

Good grief!

 

[honetpot]

I had to unlearn some stuff I was taught in bad places. I was taught to ride being able to see my toe in front of my knee sitting in a chair seat. At the same place I was taught that if a horse puffs out its stomach when you go to do up the girth you knee it hard in the belly. Later when I had my own I was taught that you can finish hunting on the last meet day in March and throw fully clipped horses straight out into the field when you get them home, unrugged. That every horse needs 2 bucket feeds a day. That oats are the work of the devil. That turnout is unnecessary. That horses ridden on roads have to wear shoes. That you can use one saddle for every horse with a prolite pad (that came from a household name event rider of the 70/80s and was said to me by them around 1997.). Etc etc, the list is pretty long.

Sounds pretty normal for then. We had frying pan saddles that were made for sitting back on, with serge panels, and you just put a saddle on, no one bothered if it fitted if it girthed up. Where I worked in the 70's the drag hunter that was clipped and working that weekend was turned straight out, and then it snowed, so we had to cobble together a rug to fit an 18.2, because the owner would not pay the full livery and it was cheaper for it to be out at grass.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

I think I'm unlearning a lot, as a child I learnt from people who thought you should show them whose boss when they misbehaved, I now don't see it as misbehaving but as them trying to tell me something, like they're scared or in pain or in the case of my cheeky pony he's generally come to a grinding halt because he's seen a particularly tasty looking bit of grass.
I think other than the ride them through it and force them to do what you want attitude my instructors as a child did teach me to ride well, we spent a lot of time stirrupless, bareback and with our reins knotted infront of us only to be used in an emergency!

I am trying now to always listen to my ponies which has made most others on my yard think I have lost the plot, but I'm starting to see fantastic results from it!

Today I "lunged" my young pony at liberty in the field, all the tiny pieces I've been quietly teaching him just all slotted together perfectly, the feeling of being able to ask my pony to go around me in a circle with absolutely no equipment or tack and change his speed and direction just by using my body language and energy and him staying with me when he could have just as easily just trotted off to join his mates, it was fantastic, I've never known a pony so enthusiastic to do stuff with me and he can read me so easily which has made me work on myself a lot to because if I have even a fleeting thought of he's going to stop/spook etc he knows and then does whatever I was thinking of.

Today I felt like a child just playing with my pony again, my goal now is to keep childlike joy and fun about everything we do, I don't care what we do as long we both enjoy doing it.

 

[palo1]

May I just interject that not everything that is traditional is bad, and quite a lot of new thinking has been proven to be on a sliding scale of not quite right/effective, through plain bonkers, to downright harmful (rollkur, anyone?).

Not only that but a number of 'traditions' which have been previously dismissed have indeed come round again as good practice in the light of science and reconsideration. For example, it was tradition to feed oats to horses in hard work. Then along came the compound feeds, the balancers, the shiny bags of 'modern nutrition' which we all loved for their convenience, simplicity and the thrill of scientific claims. But now we have come to realise that oats are not only traditional but fed traditionally by horse keepers for good reason. It was tradition to remove a horse's shoes for a period of time (hunters in the summer, polo ponies in the winter lol and ponies just didn't wear shoes...) because there was an understanding that horses feet, and indeed their whole systems benefited from being unshod. Then along came the proliferation of the all weather surface and the increase in liveried leisure horses which meant that horses without a specific, seasonal role could and would be ridden all year. So the shoes stayed on, horses were worked in leisure and sport all year round and b***er me, but horses developed problems in all manner of ways. We then 'invented' barefoot! And now it is far more common again for horses to spend periods of time, or their whole lives, unshod. Tradition is not the enemy but a clear look at management practices and the reasons for those are important at any time.

 

[humblepie]

Aha, but I had a series of lessons with Pat Burgess was back in time and to quote her........." Forget your dressage seats, I don't mind if you grip with your knees, calves or thighs but you can't ride at a big fence without doing one of these."

Friend used to have lessons with Pat. Must admit the very whizzy ponies I had gripping with knees was probably quite sensible

 

[Time for Tea]

And horses who aren't used to people hanging on their gob can get very dangerous very quickly if their rider doesn't drop the reins.....

I was always taught to leave their heads alone. My horses and ponies have been the best teachers. I wish I had listened harder. But there is still time to learn