Unshod to me but "Barefoot" to others!

Aces_High

Aces_High

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Following on from a thread in the Vets. I am interested to hear why people would use a "trimmer" to go "barefoot" with their horses. For me a horse is shod or unshod. My farrier takes my horses shoes off and leaves it unshod if it's going to have a break, box rest etc. I am maybe slightly old fashioned but I cannot understand why you would let someone who's trained for 7 weeks loose on your horses hooves over a person who's spent many years training and practising.

I do not know anything on the "barefoot" subject and would not choose to embrace it for my horses. Other than as I've said above when the horses are being left unshod and my farrier has trimmed their feet.

I feel it's a marketing thing similar to this Parelli carrot stick person.

My brother in law is a farrier and I have a lot of farriers as friends, they have very little respect for the "trimmer." I feel if it was that amazing the multi million pound industry I am in would have embraced it years ago.

One question I have, if you want to ride your horse unshod, why not ask your farrier to trim it's feet?? That's where I get confused. I wouldn't get a plumber out to fix my electrics.....

Anyway I am posting this as I would like to hear some opinions. I'd rather no one flew off the handle at me for not wanting to embrace "trimmers." I am only interested in opinions and a good hearty discussion :) .
 
Oh good lord - not this AGAIN!

I think you will find if you searched H&H forum that this has been debated over and over and over!

To me, I think you have answered your own question - you have your horses shoes taken off if your horses are going to have a break or on box rest. 'Barefooters' embrace the fact that horses CAN work fully and properly with no shoes, and address other issues like diet and environment.

I think that is the main difference between unshod and barefoot to me.
 
I'll get in before the Farrier v Trimmer debate gets going in full swing. :D

There are good and bad Trimmers the same as any professional.

Barefoot is an holistic approach to hoof care rather than a medical model which just concentrates on the hooves in isolation from the rest of the horse. Last time I looked, my horses hooves were still attached to them so getting them healthy with correct diet and correct exercise is also part of keeping hooves healthy. I have come to believe that hooves are a window to horses overall health so get them healthy and the horse will be healthy...

That's my thinking and reason for favoring 'barefoot' over just pulling shoes and carryiing on the same... this may be fine for some horses but not for many others.

Personally I can't wait until this thinking becomes mainstream and we no longer have these debates but all pull together to learn more to help our horses.
 
My horse is trimmed by a farrier and he is in full work without shoes. Has been for the whole year I have had him and I have never had a problem. He has had years of training so why would he be un able to trim but able to shoe? Yes the work done to prepare the foot for a shoe is diffrent to that when the horse will be working without shoes but if he is qualified to nail shoes on without getting it wrong then why would he not be able to trim a foot. If any thing my farrier is all for keeping him without shoes as he has good feet and has never been sore so it is cheaper for me and quicker for him.
 
If you and your horse are happier with an unshod horse and farrier trim - fine.


" " " " " " " "a shod horse and farrier - fine.



" " " " " " " " a barefoot horse and timmer - fine.



See? - No problems! :D
 
Oh, I'm always up for a good argument!

Aces_High said:
Following on from a thread in the Vets. I am interested to hear why people would use a "trimmer" to go "barefoot" with their horses.
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Because I have had three horses who were unsound in shoes who are sound without them. All failed by farriery. Two of whom would "never work without shoes" because of how sore they were without them on when being shod, according to their farriers.

Aces_High said:
For me a horse is shod or unshod.
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Are you "unshod" before you put your shoes on in the morning. No, you are barefoot and so are my horses. The term is used in the original True Grit film.


Aces_High said:
My farrier takes my horses shoes off and leaves it unshod if it's going to have a break, box rest etc. I am maybe slightly old fashioned but I cannot understand why you would let someone who's trained for 7 weeks loose on your horses hooves over a person who's spent many years training and practising.
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I don't. It's even worse. I do them myself and yet I have had no training at all :o And yet somehow I managed to cure a horse with navicular which was about to be put down and have a horse that 2 vets told me would never work without shoes go affilitated eventing.


Aces_High said:
I do not know anything on the "barefoot" subject
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Clearly - yet without knowing anything about it, you are happy to condemn trimmers.

Aces_High said:
and would not choose to embrace it for my horses. Other than as I've said above when the horses are being left unshod and my farrier has trimmed their feet.
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It's a shame you are not more open minded, your horses might benefit.

Aces_High said:
I feel it's a marketing thing similar to this Parelli carrot stick person.
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Errr - it costs LESS to have a horse trimmed than shod. Asking a farrier to keep working horses barefoot is like asking a turkey to vote for Christmas. There are far too many horses being shod by farriers who know full well that they do not need shoes - the cob in a livery stables who pootles in the school a few days a week, for example.


Aces_High said:
My brother in law is a farrier ]and I have a lot of farriers as friends, they have very little respect for the "trimmer." I feel if it was that amazing the multi million pound industry I am in would have embraced it years ago.
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Why would they embrace something which will devastate their revenue stream? Some absolutely great farriers have. If your relative and friends haven't then they will lose revenues to trimmers. The knowledge that horses do not need shoes to do hard work is a cat that has been let out of the bag. It's not going back in, and if your friends try to put it back in, then they are going to end up very scratched :)


Aces_High said:
One question I have, if you want to ride your horse unshod, why not ask your farrier to trim it's feet?? That's where I get confused. I wouldn't get a plumber out to fix my electrics.....
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My farriers told me the horse could not work without shoes. They were wrong, like so many of their kind.

Are you aware that general anaesthesia was introduced by DENTISTS not doctors? Why? Because a skillful surgeon was one who could operate really quickly so as not to have his patient screaming with pain for too long. They perceived anaesthesia as reducing their skill, and would not use it. Dentists took it up. Barefoot trimmers are the new dentists.

Show your farrier relative and friends this hunter. He isn't special (except that he likes jumping 6 ft hedges :)) and neither am I. Thousands of horses could do what he can do. With my facilities and experience, I reckon I could get the vast majority of horses to his performance levels, footwise.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4yCd-E43WOw/TbGASmTdZuI/AAAAAAAAAr8/DonyinFe8a4/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg

The question for me is not "why a trimmer" or "why barefoot" but "why shoes in the first place"?


Next?
 
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meh!
my farrier has shod and 'de-shod' my horse as and when required. he even said to us, 'she could do without shoes perfectly well' so off they came and she can do everything without 'em :D
said farrier trims her feet lovely when he comes as he does with all the other barefoot nags on the yard. i'd only really put shoes on her if we were going to do serious roadwork, and then only on the front feet. :D

tell me other barefoot people-do you do serious roadwork without getting a 'footie' horse?
 
the answer to me is very simply. You choose the expert with the most experience in doing what you want (as in all walks of life)
By unshod or barefoot horse most of us mean one that can do, unshod, exactly the same as it would shod not a field ornament or resting horse.

If the farrier has a long list of unshod performance horse clients then no doubt he will have tons of experience in producing unshod riding horses and will be the best person. If he hasn't and most of his client's are shod then surely asking someone who works day in and day out with unshod horses ie a trimmer would have advantages.

Whoever I chose I would be looking at their work and the level of perfomance attained by their client's horses before making a choice.

O/P you say you know little about barefoot horses. Performance barefoot horses are not produced by trimming. Perhaps research a little more and you will start to see there is a bit more to it than farrier v trimmer.
 
Ooo good post CP!

Although i am 'barefoot' and I would never go back to shoes, and I am also training to be a natural hoof care practitioner (which incidently doesn't take 7 weeks) I would never insist or go ON about becoming barefoot.

To me, if your horse is happy shod and you are happy shoeing your horse, or you are happy having a farrier trim your horse, and your horse is sound and hard working, then what's the problem?? However if you want to learn more, or want a more holistic and healthier approach to your horses hoof care, then yes, consult a trimmer (a well informed one) as MOST farriers will not embrace this thinking.
 
I have tried barefoot (complete with requiste trimmer) with a great lack of success for my pony who is now shod.

However, I rode a barefoot horse owned by a friend on Monday. We did a hack for an hour to a pub and back again, he did not feel footy. Whats more he got a best condition award on an 80KM endurance ride two weeks before! All my friend's horses and the ones she has in training are barefoot and compete in rides of upto 100 miles in a day including at FEI level. They certainly do road work on their rides. Her husband trims their feet if needed, mostly they rely on road work to wear any excess off.

I think it is something that works for some horses and not others, like most horsey things really!
 
Tazhazzamoose said:
tell me other barefoot people-do you do serious roadwork without getting a 'footie' horse?
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Yes I do!
I had a barefoot carriage horse (Welsh D). He did fun drives, carnivals and pleasure drives etc often out for hours. My pony now is barefoot and we go anywhere we like. He never slips, even when frosty/icy. If we meet a 'sharp' gravel track...I get off! He is trimmed by my farrier.
 
I can see where you are coming from those with unshod horses. I should have also added horses for courses :)

What I'd also like to add, is that I deal with TB's. I know that there is a trainer called Jeremy Gask who has some horses without shoes on which race and I think one has won. I cannot see that a majority of TB's would manage in a training environment without shoes. I suppose it also comes down to practicality the Welsh D where you get off if you approach a gravel track - that's all well and good but a string of 30 horses out on exercise, you cannot have all the lads hopping off and then hopping on again - it would be carnage!

I completely get the more native breeds who have strong feet being unshod. All of my ponies when I was a child were unshod and I used to hunt, pony club them etc and they were never lame.

Sorry I should have been slightly more specific in my post! CP - your hunter is lovely and looks like he thrives in the hunting field. As for speaking to my Brother in Law, his main interest is a sound, comfortable horse - if the "barefoot timmer road" was the way to go then I am sure he would change his views and implement their ideas. I did say that I know little about it, it might sound narrow minded but I know that the environment within which I work that a trimmer would not work.
 
Kind of sounds like a few of you who's farriers have taken a negative look on having a horse in shod need to get a new farrier :D.

At the end of the day, each and every horse is different. Personally, having a OH who is an apprentice farrier who has to train for 4/5 years and take more exams and tests than I have had hot dinners, it is hard to understand why anyone would choose people who have little or no training.

My OH has always taken on the opinion of his boss, which is- if the horse can manage then by all means we'll trim it instead of shoeing, and the only way you can tell is by trying!

I have heard of several cases of barefoot trims being RSPCA cases, as people who want to earn a few bob look into it and cause more damage than good because of so little training.

All this said, my horse has fronts on only and bare behind, my farrier does the whole job and she doesn't struggle on any ground. I am 110% confident that if I were to take her fronts off, she would 'after a while of adapting' cope equally as well as she does with shoe's. All down to regular (6/7 weeks) trimming and a bl@@dy good farrier!

:-) (sorry if parts of that don't make sence, Im on my phone and cannot re read and spell check it)
 
I hardly dare post on this forum, but i will "bite the bullet" and ask a Q, yes I know I am acknowledged as an expert on everything equine and I am only asking for the education of the masses [was that opium derived?]
My pony's feet never have those nice "rounded" walls when the soles are viewed, more like a series of little holes, , farrier tells me he is picking up stones and I could try brushing them, would this work [he is out at summer grass at the moment so I can't do it. or would weekly sandpapering do the trick?
before I am shot down for doing my own farriery, my farrier is of the opinion that we wait till the toes are long, but I am not [controversial eh] and the first thing he does is get that knife out and trims down either side of the frog, in to the translucent part, I don't know why,. but I know he will not come back if I keep protesting!
 
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Young TB's in training certainly don't suit barefoot no, you're right.. That's because in general, they are fed HIGH amounts of sugars and starches = recipe for diaster in terms of hoof health and overall health. They are kept in most of the time = disater time for hoof health and they are fed limited amounts of forage, again horrendous in terms of overall health of the horse.

If racers were kept the way that horses are designed to be kept, then yes, i'm sure far more would be able to go barefoot.

The REALLY sad thing about racing horses is that due to their rubbish start in life and that they are normally shod from 2 years old, they actually don't develop a healthy back of foot (digital cushion etc) and therefore will probably never be comfortable with or without shoes...sad fact, but true. Saying that my tb is completely rock crunching, so its all swings and roundabouts!
 
Anyone can take exams, courses, degrees and have experience but imo in the end it all depends on two things... how good and truly relevant the training/experience is and how good the individual is at learning, understanding and working from it and continued learning.
 
I think Simon Early set up a racing yard with the idea of barefoot performance:
Pea gravel tracks, , pebbles salt water troughs.
Generally there is grass beside the stone tracks, so horses that are footy can use these.
Not to decry him, or any other trainer, but he did not have/ has not had great success. They were NH [older, jump] horses so probably better placed that flat horses to go barefoot.
There are quite a few NH trainers who put horses out in paddocks all year round, in fact an odd few are trained "out of the fleld", but if you have 200 horses, like some flat trainers, logistics dictate that they have to be stabled every day, though many are out on the gallops in the morning, and on the horse walker in the afternoon.
http://www.simonearleracing.com/how_we_train_our_horses.html
 
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http://www.horsesfirstracing.com/ Simon Earle used to be the trainer here but left under whatever circumstances and Jeremy Gask is now the man in charge. I think it's great that they offer something different but it isn't something which will suit every horse. Having just had another look, they employ a farrier and I think all the horses there have shoes on. It was a bloke called Eammon Wilmott which wanted to have his horses trained with a different approach. Earle was the original trainer there and got the different equipment there. I think as Earle is keen to run horses without shoes that it's a shame he doesn't have the horsewalkers with the different surfaces to harden the feet etc up.

I know it's more natural for a horse to be unshod and in the wild they obviously are. I just think that the horses that I own have been so highly bred and in captivity that they need and have to work with what we want them to do. But then it's not natural to ride a horse, brush it, keep it in a fenced paddock, stable etc. I am not looking at this from a person who has a lovely Welsh Cob for instance who hacks, schools and jumps 4 times a week. I am trying to see it from a more commercial point of view.

The link I've put in is worth a look anyway - so have a peek!
 
Maybe I am old fashioned, but what is the difference between the two? My horses have always been unshod / trimmed feet . I have a very good farrier that is 'holistic' in all he does with my horses feet, he is very maticulous in his work, never rushes and gives lots of brilliant advice when needed, he says my horses have excellent strong feet. I would choose a qualified time served experienced farrier everytime? particulary one like my own that is forever doing continuous professional development in his field to keep up to date with current science and trends. What is the difference between a barefoot practitioner and a farrier, so much so many people are turning to the barefoot version? I just dont get it? Is it to be in with a new fashion? I have been with horses thirty years and not quite sure what all the fuss is about when it comes to the barefoot practice, what's so appalling that they have replaced a farrier? sorry I sound stern here, I dont mean to, sorry, i'm just baffled by it all. I am being thick in this topic as I trully do not know what it's all about as there is nothing un holistic about my farrier, ar epeople just jumping on a band wagon, what is so un-natural horsemanship about a farrier? I have also had two cobs (one a driver) that have needed shoes due to them not coping too well with lots of road work but in general, all mine have remained unshod for many years. Sorry if I sound dumb ;)
 
horsemadinpoulton said:
Maybe I am old fashioned, but what is the difference between the two? My horses have always been unshod / trimmed feet . I have a very good farrier that is 'holistic' in all he does with my horses feet, he is very maticulous in his work, never rushes and gives lots of brilliant advice when needed, he says my horses have excellent strong feet.
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There is no difference if you have a fab Farrier like this and horses with no problems. :)
 
Are people just a bit thick on this forum or what?
How many times has this barefoot v shod thing been done on here, and still people are saying they don't understand, or I ride on the road, or it wouldn't suit my horse, or my farrier doesn't like it.

Frustrating or what.
 
my farrier shoes those that need it, and trims those who dont and are happy unshod. all feet look lovely and horses are sound and balanced. seen some shocking trims from trimmers! Farriers train for many years, and do a lot of anatomy. not something that can be done in a few weeks. FARRIER every time for me whether shod or not.
 
Oooohhhhh a barefoot unshod no shoe foot thread! YAY!!!

Tallyho! Says: who gives a **** as long the horse can do what you want it to do without being lame, hurt or sore.

Let's all be very good friends in the name of the hoof... Beer anyone?
 
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