Unsteady in contact

[DawnS]

Hi, I am working on this problem with the help of my instructor but hoping the forum can throw up some suggestions I might not have considered.
I have a TB type horse competing at BD Novice and was hoping to move up to Elem soon. However I'm being held back by consistent feedback from judges that he is opening his mouth/moving his head/generally unsteady in the contact. He has always had this issue but it's only a real problem now I want to progress in dressage.

Teeth: he's had his teeth checked numerous times by a dental specialist vet. He did have a mouth problem which went undiagnosed by another vet for a while, but the head problem started before this and has continued since.
Back/saddle: been treated recently by physio and McTimoney therapist, with consensus that he needs to develop postural muscles. Had a new saddle fitted last month as the old one didn't fit.
Bits/bridle: he's in a hanging cheek barrel snaffle and a Micklem, have tried all sorts of (mild) bits. Tried his noseband loose and tight, makes no positive difference. It's been suggested that I shut his mouth with a drop noseband, but I haven't tried it.
Riding: he is the same for my trainer as for me, so I'm pretty sure it's not my hands. He can produce lovely work, but it's on a knife edge - too much contact, or slightly uneven contact, results in him bobbing his head, opening mouth, etc etc. He's worst in walk and best in canter. At present I'm having to ride him very 'out' to the bridle to keep him happy, which in tests translates to being over the bit at times. I want to ride more leg into hand but while he is off the leg (could always be better), the hand part of the equation is a problem! I should add that he doesn't fuss when lunged in a pessoa/equi-ami attached to the bit.

Any (kind) suggestions very welcome, I want to get the basics right however long it takes (though he's no spring chicken, so sooner would be better...).

 

[My Boys M&D]

From what you're describing it sounds like a lack of connection between hand and leg? As in you can't ride him off your leg into an elastic contact?

When mine comes off the bridle like this and loses that connection it's been when his navicular has flared up and he has gone very slightly (1/10) bilaterally lame. It's pretty difficult to spot and it took me a few years of the cycle before I twigged but it's now pretty definite- when he's lame I feel like I'm riding 2 horses if that makes sense.

If you've had everything else checked, given he goes the same for your trainer and is showing no sign of improvement I would get a performance workup by a vet specialising in subtle lameness issues. At the very least to eliminate anything.

I would also get a proper bit specialist out to professionally fit his bit, especially as you said he has/had a mouth problem.

 

[DawnS]

From what you're describing it sounds like a lack of connection between hand and leg? As in you can't ride him off your leg into an elastic contact?

When mine comes off the bridle like this and loses that connection it's been when his navicular has flared up and he has gone very slightly (1/10) bilaterally lame. It's pretty difficult to spot and it took me a few years of the cycle before I twigged but it's now pretty definite- when he's lame I feel like I'm riding 2 horses if that makes sense.

If you've had everything else checked, given he goes the same for your trainer and is showing no sign of improvement I would get a performance workup by a vet specialising in subtle lameness issues. At the very least to eliminate anything.

I would also get a proper bit specialist out to professionally fit his bit, especially as you said he has/had a mouth problem.

I was sort of afraid someone might say this - which doesn't mean you're not correct! When yours gets that way, does he keep a contact ok on the lunge (e.g. to side reins)? As mine seems happy in side reins provided they're not attached high up to a roller.
The mouth problem was a cheek abscess rather than anything structural, though I am on the lookout for a bit consultant when I can get one.

 

[My Boys M&D]

Unfortunately yes! I lunge him in an equi ami and he's always better in his head carriage then, but actually is probably sitting behind it.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[milliepops]

from your description this seems like a horse who generally does not accept or understand the contact in the most basic sense.
I'm afraid there aren't really any short cuts and it will likely boil down to working on the basics.

Tinkering with bits and nosebands is worth it if the horse is uncomfortable but from the POV of teaching the horse what the contact is about and how he needs to respond, it's not going to plug that gap in understanding.

Part of this will be about getting him to work consistently from behind/over his back etc because if that's not established then no matter what you do to the front, it won't have the desired effect.
I think the poster above is probably right that in side reins etc the horses often look great on the surface but are actually behind the contact.

I have one that has always been prone to opening her mouth if the rest of the work is not 100%. she is now in a double bridle so there's no option to strap her mouth shut, i have to work on improving her throughness and submission to the contact and self carriage, and then the mouth opening goes away. I've generally taken that approach with all my horses unless it's gawping to the extent that I simply can't teach the horse about the contact in which case I like a drop noseband as they don't have to be very tight to be effective.

So... i'd go back a few steps and really critically evaluate your basic training. is the horse straight, is he supple, does he work in a rhythm, is he soft in his back and will he engage behind, are your transitions correct etc. if all that is as good as you can make it, then it's time to think about how the horse accepts the bit, does he go "in an outline" in spite of it, or can he understand how to work properly through from behind into your hand?

 

[Goldenstar]

Connection and therefore contact comes with time and it develops and changes throughout the training .
It sounds as if you horse just needs longer doing the basic training .

 

[Leandy]

The issue is caused by tension somewhere over the topline. The root cause of this could be many things. It could be a physical pain issue which means he is trying to protect himself from pain somewhere (it could be anywhere TBH) and so is not relaxing and letting go entirely or it could be a schooling issue caused by not fully understanding what he is being asked to do, or a temperamental issue where he is just a busy horse which holds tension and is more easily distracted than a dressage judge would like to see (which is really a schooling issue but some horses are more suited to dressage than others). Have you tried changing your trainer for some fresh eyes and maybe a different approach? That could be worth trying also. A change of instructor can spark a light bulb moment for you and the horse in tackling things in a different way so that he understands, and you ride, the basics better.

 

[milliepops]

I just wanted to mention for the OP that although it can feel like a game of snakes and ladders where you think you're climbing up the ladders and you end up going down a snake to work on *basics* when you want to move up a level... that is just Dressage! the basics never go away, you never stop working on them, you just develop a better version of them as you go along.
my horse is starting a lot of the GP exercises and what have we been working on...? basics. Being even MORE on the aids, being even more truly forward, being really through, even better acceptance of the contact etc etc. so don't be disheartened. When you get the basics better, the stuff that feels more interesting to work on will suddenly feel a lot easier.

 

[tristar]

we had a horse like this he was ridden in a kk sprenger mid lozenge training bit, the day i tried a ssteel fulmer snaffle with a slim mouth piece was a revelation from the moment it went in his mouth he was a different horse, consistently forward into the mouth, and settled and happy, not saying that will work for you but just shows how it can be a small change that can solve a problem

 

[DawnS]

Thanks for all your replies. I think I got excited about how well he was going and possibly rushed him into more than he has strength for at the moment.
My plan now (I like to have a plan) is to stop competing and instead spend some time working on developing the core muscles with raised poles, hacking in equibands, etc, while also going back to basics with schooling. Then if there's still no improvement I'll get a lameness work up.

p.s. Just watched our tests from last weekend and you can really see in one of them that he starts out settled and gradually starts the mouth-opening etc, presumably as the wheels fall off from me 'riding the test and not the horse'. It's frustrating - felt much better than it looked!

 

[milliepops]

That sounds entirely plausible OP, I think in a test horses can either improve as they relax or get worse because the rider fixated on the wrong thing ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

One thing that really helped my not so consistent one was an instructor that could see when he wasn't straight and gave me the tools to correct it, I also now have a better feel for straightness now so even when I ride on my own I can identify the issue and know what to do.

I now know most of his inconsistencies is because his not straight it really was that simple, he literally improved in one session and has got better ever since it has been an absolute god send for us.

 

[littleshetland]

You mention a Micklem bridle. My young Friesian absolutely hated his Micklem, and was very unstable with his headcarraige and contact with it. I put him back in an old style snaffle bridle and he was 100% better fairly instantly.

 

[DawnS]

You mention a Micklem bridle. My young Friesian absolutely hated his Micklem, and was very unstable with his headcarraige and contact with it. I put him back in an old style snaffle bridle and he was 100% better fairly instantly.

Thanks, he's also been in a cavesson without much difference. My other thought is to try a drop, but they don't seem like they'd be very different from the Micklem?

 

[LEC]

I don't like Miklems - I think you get a fake feeling for the contact. Every horse I have ridden in a miklem tends to sit behind the contact and never take it forward as I would like. Its probably chicken and egg though. Horse in a miklem for those reasons and if fine then not in one. I do think so often its just a case of finding the right bit, being really disciplined and getting the basics right.

I have a 6yo who is being a shrew at the moment about the contact because she is really happy going along slightly behind the leg and into enough of a contact for 76% out doing dressage but longer term it will bite us on the arse. So I am working very hard on her being off the leg and truly into the contact. Some days its hideous but I just keep going as a lot of it is about strength and being through which is what she is trying to avoid.

 

[DawnS]

@LEC he can definitely go along looking pretty but not really working from behind! I considered trying a happy mouth straight bar to encourage him to take the bit forward while I’m working on strength - would people recommend this or is it another red herring?

 

[LEC]

@LEC he can definitely go along looking pretty but not really working from behind! I considered trying a happy mouth straight bar to encourage him to take the bit forward while I’m working on strength - would people recommend this or is it another red herring?

I would get a bitting specialist out and stop guessing. My local one is Charlotte Warman for instance and she has huge quantities of different kinds of bit. Invest in getting it done properly and maybe have your trainer there as well if you are inexperienced in what you want.

I have had a lot of fussy horses but I tend to keep things very simple. Single curved joint or comfy barrel on the whole.

 

[DawnS]

I would get a bitting specialist out and stop guessing. My local one is Charlotte Warman for instance and she has huge quantities of different kinds of bit. Invest in getting it done properly and maybe have your trainer there as well if you are inexperienced in what you want.

I have had a lot of fussy horses but I tend to keep things very simple. Single curved joint or comfy barrel on the whole.

I didn't know Charlotte did bitting - have messaged her thank you

 

[DawnS]

Just popping back here to report on progress. He is going MILES better so here's what I've been doing in case it helps anybody else:
- Muscles. My instructor has been long reining him, and he's wearing equibands for hacking. Combined with upping his feed quite a bit, this means he is finally putting some muscle on. Still needs to be stronger though.
- Riding. Basically get my leg on about 10x more than I think I need and keep my hands up and still. Oh and stop hanging onto my inside rein. It's a work in progress.
- Bit fitter. I was unsure about this one but boy was it worth it. She took his browband off which was too small, then tried 10+ bits on and it was very apparent what he doesn't like (anything that moves about) and what he does (a verbindend d ring). Not something I'd ever have thought of by myself and even the fitter said it's not what she would have guessed at.
Thank you for everyone's suggestions, he is not only going better but seems far more content about it.

 

[palo1]

Thanks, he's also been in a cavesson without much difference. My other thought is to try a drop, but they don't seem like they'd be very different from the Micklem?

I think a drop feels very different to the horse for some reason. I say this because my young horse (5yo) loathed the micklem I tried on her but works entirely differently and much better with a traditional drop noseband. I am not sure why to be honest but the difference in the two is very significant. At the moment my little mare likes a loose ring with a drop noseband - I suspect this arrangement allows for both movement and stability!

 

[Goldenstar]

I always try a Mullen mouthed straight bar bomber bit ( loose ring ) on young horses .I also try loose ring Myler bit and a cheeked bit and thin ish bit with a lozenge
I muck around with these until I am clear what the horse likes .
What I usually find is horses go though phases based on what they are finding easy and more difficult .
I certainly would be trying something other than a hanging cheek I do not think that helps you to get a horse consistent .