'Unwelcome touching' of horses by humans

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soloequestrian

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Just read something that popped up on FB and found it interesting (I used 'unwelcome' in the thread title because the article uses 'inappropriate' and that sounds bit weird....). I've copied it below. My horse is always pleased to see me and happy to come in to be ridden but she usually hates being groomed, to the point where she squeals and cow kicks. In the summer she tends to get itchy and then she will ask to be groomed in certain places, and she is often calmer about being groomed in the evening when she's not going to be ridden. I've often thought that there might be a pain element but although she sometimes gets cross when I place her saddle she is absolutely fine about having her girth done up and as soon as it is on she seems to relax and all the squeally stuff stops. She also hates having rugs put on. I think she is sensitive to touch but I'm not sure how to get around this because I do need to groom the dirt off to be able to put tack on. The article below about inappropriate touching makes a lot of sense but in the same vein I'm not sure how you ask permission to groom.... discussion welcome!!

INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING
I'm reading an amazing book called Amphibious Soul by Craig Foster, the Academy award winning documentary film maker of "My Octopus Teacher".
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it, it is simply profound.
In the book he says "As a rule, I never touch an animal unless they touch me first".
In my work building relationship with horses, I do this too. Most times a horse will touch you with their nose/muzzle first, and matching that greeting (versus labelling the horse as a biter) is a game changer.
But there's a phenomenon I have noticed going on with people trying to build relationship with their horses that I have labelled "inappropriate touching", and it looks a bit like the photo below.
This picture was taken at a horse expo in Pennsylvania recently, where I worked with a demo horse who has a "biting issue". He would reaching out in a way that his owner was termed as nipping, whereas I interpreted as him saying hello, similar to reaching out to shake hands with someone.
When he reached out I would greet him with a flat hand that he is able to to nuzzle, lick or even scrape his teeth on. After doing this a while his snappy acting motions got less so, and he was no longer needing to say "hey, pay attention" , but was more "hey, how's it going". I was explaining to the audience that I was meeting him in the way that he was meeting me (with his muzzle) and that it's not an invitation to touch other parts (yet).
I then said that it's many people's default to reach up and rub a horse between the eyes, whether that's what they are offering or not, and that if you do, it's inappropriate touching and it gets in the way of connection. It doesn't meet their needs, and is all about yours.
With the horse in the picture, he'd been engaging me with his muzzle, and I said to the audience "watch what happens when I try to rub him between the eyes". As you can see in the photo, he has raised his head up and is clearly indicating "No, not there, on my muzzle".
We had a Connection And Attunement retreat here at the Journey On Ranch a week ago, and I used my wife Robyn to illustrate this point to the participants. I said "imagine I'm at a gathering and meeting Robyn for the first time". We walked up to each other in that way people do when they see someone new and they can tell an introduction is shaping up, Robyn reached out with her hand to say hello and instead of me reaching out to shake her hand, I gently reached up and lightly brushed a wisp of hair from her cheekbone and tucked it behind her ear.
The participants all gasped and the ick factor was high.
Even though it was caring, and gentle, it was inappropriate at that moment.
Now Im not saying you can't rub your horse on the forehead. I'm saying if your horse has a disregulated nervous system around humans because they don't feel seen (and safe), try to meet their needs first, before trying get get yours met.
I recently saw an instagram post from a University in the UK, and the professor was explaining that they were doing studies on horses to determine levels of stress. In the background a horse was standing with his head out over a Dutch door. While he was explaining their investigations on stress, a female student (or maybe another professor, I don't know which) walked up to the horse. The horse reached out with his muzzle to greet her.
She ignored this and reached up to rub the horse between the eyes.
He turned his head 90 degrees to the left to communicate that wasn't what he was offering.
Her hand followed him and kept rubbing.
He then turned his head 180 degrees to the right, saying "No, not like that".
She smiled, gave him another pet between the eyes, and walked off camera.
While the professor was saying that they are doing experiments determining the amounts of stress horses are under, someone in the background was actually creating stress, without either of them even knowing it.
Once you understand how sentient horses are, and how subtle their communication, you can't unsee it.
 
I saw this, I've never analysed or articulated it before but I saw the Warwick Schiller post too and found it interesting. It's something I do without thinking to all animals now that I stop to properly consider it.
Charlie and I have a funny sort of game, he doesn't love being messed with but sometimes he'll be a bit mithery, if he's in my face and a pest I'll poke at his nose back. If he stops I stop, he's known for being a bit bitey if you're in his face but he seems to enjoy our silliness 🤷‍♀️
Bon just craves touch but even for him I'd never go straight to his face
 
I have a mare that loves being touched - anywhere … she just loves attention and will do pretty much anything to get it… I have another horse that only likes attention on her terms … I think it’s a fundamental part of being a good horse person to understand this and offer appropriate attention to their needs- horses must be trained to accept some touching they don’t necessarily like though so that wounds or injuries or basic needs can be met (you could tell which of my mares is which by a photograph … one has mane that’s a bit of a mess , not that clean and looks like she needs a good groom and one is clean and tidy and has been groomed to a shine … neither is neglected but one wants to be fussed and pampered and the other has the bare essentials to keep her healthy)
 
An interesting subject, and one which I have been thinking about more and more, not just with horses but with other animals too. We're naturally a very touchy-feely species, but the impulse to touch 'cute things' often doesn't coincide with respect and consent.

My sister was the smallest in her class, much smaller than other children the same age, and I remember how stressed, frustrated and helpless she became when other children would lift her up in the playground and carry her off like a toy. With animals, petting zoos and the like actively encourage grabbing and touching animals, with no consideration to how the animal feels. They don't teach children what a stressed animal or an animal in a freeze state looks like.

In the horse world, there is an interesting double standard that a horse coming into our personal space is 'disrespectful', but we should be allowed to feel them and touch them all over and that should be the default? I wouldn't like it if a stranger came up and started touching me all over my face, but it is so normalised.

I also have a horse who only likes touch in certain areas, will tolerate it in others but will not seek it out. Some brushes are an absolute no no. I thought that my cat hated being brushed until I tried my hairbrush on him and he loved the bristles on that one.
 
soloequestrian said:
Just read something that popped up on FB and found it interesting (I used 'unwelcome' in the thread title because the article uses 'inappropriate' and that sounds bit weird....). I've copied it below. My horse is always pleased to see me and happy to come in to be ridden but she usually hates being groomed, to the point where she squeals and cow kicks. In the summer she tends to get itchy and then she will ask to be groomed in certain places, and she is often calmer about being groomed in the evening when she's not going to be ridden. I've often thought that there might be a pain element but although she sometimes gets cross when I place her saddle she is absolutely fine about having her girth done up and as soon as it is on she seems to relax and all the squeally stuff stops. She also hates having rugs put on. I think she is sensitive to touch but I'm not sure how to get around this because I do need to groom the dirt off to be able to put tack on. The article below about inappropriate touching makes a lot of sense but in the same vein I'm not sure how you ask permission to groom.... discussion welcome!!

INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING
I'm reading an amazing book called Amphibious Soul by Craig Foster, the Academy award winning documentary film maker of "My Octopus Teacher".
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it, it is simply profound.
In the book he says "As a rule, I never touch an animal unless they touch me first".
In my work building relationship with horses, I do this too. Most times a horse will touch you with their nose/muzzle first, and matching that greeting (versus labelling the horse as a biter) is a game changer.
But there's a phenomenon I have noticed going on with people trying to build relationship with their horses that I have labelled "inappropriate touching", and it looks a bit like the photo below.
This picture was taken at a horse expo in Pennsylvania recently, where I worked with a demo horse who has a "biting issue". He would reaching out in a way that his owner was termed as nipping, whereas I interpreted as him saying hello, similar to reaching out to shake hands with someone.
When he reached out I would greet him with a flat hand that he is able to to nuzzle, lick or even scrape his teeth on. After doing this a while his snappy acting motions got less so, and he was no longer needing to say "hey, pay attention" , but was more "hey, how's it going". I was explaining to the audience that I was meeting him in the way that he was meeting me (with his muzzle) and that it's not an invitation to touch other parts (yet).
I then said that it's many people's default to reach up and rub a horse between the eyes, whether that's what they are offering or not, and that if you do, it's inappropriate touching and it gets in the way of connection. It doesn't meet their needs, and is all about yours.
With the horse in the picture, he'd been engaging me with his muzzle, and I said to the audience "watch what happens when I try to rub him between the eyes". As you can see in the photo, he has raised his head up and is clearly indicating "No, not there, on my muzzle".
We had a Connection And Attunement retreat here at the Journey On Ranch a week ago, and I used my wife Robyn to illustrate this point to the participants. I said "imagine I'm at a gathering and meeting Robyn for the first time". We walked up to each other in that way people do when they see someone new and they can tell an introduction is shaping up, Robyn reached out with her hand to say hello and instead of me reaching out to shake her hand, I gently reached up and lightly brushed a wisp of hair from her cheekbone and tucked it behind her ear.
The participants all gasped and the ick factor was high.
Even though it was caring, and gentle, it was inappropriate at that moment.
Now Im not saying you can't rub your horse on the forehead. I'm saying if your horse has a disregulated nervous system around humans because they don't feel seen (and safe), try to meet their needs first, before trying get get yours met.
I recently saw an instagram post from a University in the UK, and the professor was explaining that they were doing studies on horses to determine levels of stress. In the background a horse was standing with his head out over a Dutch door. While he was explaining their investigations on stress, a female student (or maybe another professor, I don't know which) walked up to the horse. The horse reached out with his muzzle to greet her.
She ignored this and reached up to rub the horse between the eyes.
He turned his head 90 degrees to the left to communicate that wasn't what he was offering.
Her hand followed him and kept rubbing.
He then turned his head 180 degrees to the right, saying "No, not like that".
She smiled, gave him another pet between the eyes, and walked off camera.
While the professor was saying that they are doing experiments determining the amounts of stress horses are under, someone in the background was actually creating stress, without either of them even knowing it.
Once you understand how sentient horses are, and how subtle their communication, you can't unsee it.
Click to expand...

Interesting reading this as I instantly know exactly which video this is referring to and thought the exact same thing when I watched it - as did my completely non horsey farmer husband!!! 🙈

I agree with @Roxylola - the people who “get it” tend to across domesticated(?) animals - they show us because they’ve learned how, but we (in general terms) have maybe been “unlearning” their language over time. I’m always surprised by the long-time really knowledgable horse people who can’t “see it coming”…. Whatever “it” is (a nip, a snatched leg, a forceful “no”).

even if I can’t quite pinpoint the exact cause in the moment, or mitigate a reaction (I never worked out why my boy hated our old trailer) I feel relatively confident I can predict an action that might otherwise look unexpected before it’s happening. People call it “feel”, but it’s not really magic feel - it’s all the little signals the horse is giving off before they do anything that you’re subconsciously (or if you’re really skilled, which I’m not - consciously & identifiably) aware of.

In the same vein I’d probably much rather a farmer who’s never seen a horse but can calmly approach and handle livestock to handle mine than someone who, like the article implies, has experience but marches up and imposes themselves on the animal.

Really went off on a tangent there but the topic is v interesting!!
 
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blitznbobs said:
I have a mare that loves being touched - anywhere … she just loves attention and will do pretty much anything to get it… I have another horse that only likes attention on her terms … I think it’s a fundamental part of being a good horse person to understand this and offer appropriate attention to their needs- horses must be trained to accept some touching they don’t necessarily like though so that wounds or injuries or basic needs can be met (you could tell which of my mares is which by a photograph … one has mane that’s a bit of a mess , not that clean and looks like she needs a good groom and one is clean and tidy and has been groomed to a shine … neither is neglected but one wants to be fussed and pampered and the other has the bare essentials to keep her healthy)
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Exactly this. Horses are like humans, or most animals, they all have different amounts of contact that they are comfortable with, and its our job to read this correctly and respond accordingly.
 
What is it about animal heads? Because it’s the same with dogs - people instinctively go to stroke the top of the head, even though most dogs aren’t keen on it and do duck/move away.

It does show how anthrocentric we are. You never see one horse grooming the other on the forehead, and you would think that anyone faintly horse-savvy would try to pattern horse behaviour when interacting with a horse they don’t know well. And yet…

In the same way, one equine affiliative behaviour is just standing in close proximity with a friend. But how often do you see humans able to just stand with a horse without touching them?

Miss_Millie said:
We're naturally a very touchy-feely species, but the impulse to touch 'cute things' often doesn't coincide with respect and consent.
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On this point, I find it interesting how often people assume I’m scared of an animal (cats in particular, some big dogs) because I don’t feel the need to ‘say hello’ to them and am quite happy watching them do their thing without touching them. Touch has become so intrinsic to enjoying an animal’s presence.
 
Miss_Millie said:
An interesting subject, and one which I have been thinking about more and more, not just with horses but with other animals too. We're naturally a very touchy-feely species, but the impulse to touch 'cute things' often doesn't coincide with respect and consent.

My sister was the smallest in her class, much smaller than other children the same age, and I remember how stressed, frustrated and helpless she became when other children would lift her up in the playground and carry her off like a toy. With animals, petting zoos and the like actively encourage grabbing and touching animals, with no consideration to how the animal feels. They don't teach children what a stressed animal or an animal in a freeze state looks like.

In the horse world, there is an interesting double standard that a horse coming into our personal space is 'disrespectful', but we should be allowed to feel them and touch them all over and that should be the default? I wouldn't like it if a stranger came up and started touching me all over my face, but it is so normalised.

I also have a horse who only likes touch in certain areas, will tolerate it in others but will not seek it out. Some brushes are an absolute no no. I thought that my cat hated being brushed until I tried my hairbrush on him and he loved the bristles on that one.
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Yes it is interesting, and it is true it is normalised for us to touch them. They definitely don’t always want it. I remember my daughter telling me about a mare at the racing yard where she worked. It was fine to work with, tack up etc and rode well. But woe betide you if you ever spoke gently or lovingly to it! It was strictly work or leave me alone. Interesting about the muzzle contact, I must be more observant with my own equines.
 
stangs said:
In the same way, one equine affiliative behaviour is just standing in close proximity with a friend. But how often do you see humans able to just stand with a horse without touching them?
Click to expand...
I've tried quite hard in the last few years not to touch animals so much. I can't remember exactly what the catalyst was but part of it was after learning about calming signals in horses when I got my boy. Realising what he was saying and acting on it made building a relationship with him much easier - he was so screwed up at first but would keep it all bottled up and then bam, he was gone and his handler had a rope burn. As soon as I started responding to his specific signals he became 100% more relaxed, almost overnight. And standing with him is actually one of the things I do with him (he's retired now so actually it's almost the only thing!). I stand at his neck usually, facing forward or backward, it doesn't seem to matter which, but not facing him. If I'm facing forward and he turns his head away slightly I might look or turn a little away as well or take a small step away and then he'll come back to centre. If he's feeling more cuddly he'll rub his nose down my leg and then rest it on my leg near my foot for a while. I'm still guilty of the forehead rub but not often as a greeting and he does seem to enjoy having the base of his forelock scratched in shedding seasons. He also likes to use me as a scratching post which I've never discouraged though I do warn people not to get in the firing line if they don't want to be one.
 
Body language is a fascinating subject and something that so many people don't think about with animals, and as the last line of the quote says once you see it "you can't unsee it", I wish more people who are around animals on a regular basis would take the time to learn even basic body language, it would improve their relationship no end.
 
stangs said:
What is it about animal heads? Because it’s the same with dogs - people instinctively go to stroke the top of the head, even though most dogs aren’t keen on it and do duck/move away.

It does show how anthrocentric we are. You never see one horse grooming the other on the forehead, and you would think that anyone faintly horse-savvy would try to pattern horse behaviour when interacting with a horse they don’t know well. And yet…
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Yes, and yet you never see humans stroking each other's heads either ( at least I don't)!
 
Depends on how you look at it. I won’t “ask my horse’s permission” for it to be touched/groomed for work, or health reasons/have their back done etc. Those things are all everyday things that a horse will need to accept. Will I go patting and petting a grumpy horse that doesn’t like it as a “treat”… most certainly not.

Most people do not seem to understand when an animal wants to be petted or not. The amount of rescue dogs cowering in their kennel whilst some do gooder films themselves with their hands all over the dogs head and ears is unreal. You wouldn’t do that with my dog if he wasn’t in the mood… he’d have your hands off.
 
My big lad will always move his head away, he doesn’t appreciate face touching, so he doesn’t get it. He does love a neck scratch though. My homebred minis however love snuggles and will put their whole body as close as possible and seem to appreciate bear bugs. If I sit in the field there is usually one at my back with her head over my shoulder and the other at the front with his head in my lap. It’s quite comfy!

As for dogs, I don’t know why but I have never touched the tops of their heads unless they have put their head on my lap. It’s just natural to go for under the jaw.
 
fredflop said:
Depends on how you look at it. I won’t “ask my horse’s permission” for it to be touched/groomed for work, or health reasons/have their back done etc. Those things are all everyday things that a horse will need to accept. Will I go patting and petting a grumpy horse that doesn’t like it as a “treat”… most certainly not.
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Hmm, for health needs I'll do what I need to, but I won't just stomp in and grab a foot to poultice etc, I'll take a minute to say hi first.

And I've bolded "work" because honestly that's my choice I don't need to work my horses, I like to think they enjoy it but if they were evasive about tack or brushing for tacking up etc I'd take a step back and look for reasons rather than just ignore/dismiss their objections.

I do most of what I do with my horses loose in their stables often with the door wide open, I'd rather give the opportunity to say no and me respect that than insist.

It's interesting, I've seen more these days about dog consent certainly one of mine likes a cuddle and will kind of melt in whereas the other loves a fuss but hates to be "held" but even with the cuddler I'll have a minute and then allow her to step away if she wants - she has yet to do that which generally means I'm frequently late as I never want to disappoint her 🤣
 
When I first handle a horse I'll let them sniff my hand and/or breathe into their nostrils, then I'll reach for their shoulder or their neck, as this is how another horse would approach (assuming they get past the initial nose touch without squealing and ructions!).
If I'm dealing with a nervy/uncomfortable horse I'll let them lead on how much physical contact there is to start, but ultimately I'm working towards being able to touch/groom all over, as for their wellbeing and safety there can't be 'no-touch' areas. That said, if they're ticklish or uncomfortable I'll be as efficient as possible with grooming to avoid unnecessary stress.
 
fredflop said:
I won’t “ask my horse’s permission” for it to be touched/groomed for work, or health reasons/have their back done etc. Those things are all everyday things that a horse will need to accept.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't understand the difference between something a human perceives is 'necessary' or 'required' of a horse, and something they think they are doing for the benefit of the horse, like a pat or stroke etc.

It's all the horse's body, their life, their autonomy.

If a horse is resistant about having anything done - including having their back done - we should respect that, and ask ourselves why they are resisting and work to understand why. There's always a reason - either it hurts, or they are guarding themselves emotionally - or both. (ETA: If one method of 'having their back done' makes them resistant then a more respectful way is probably needed.)

Sorry to seem argumentative, but reading this really surprised me.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I honestly don't understand the difference between something a human perceives is 'necessary' or 'required' of a horse, and something they think they are doing for the benefit of the horse, like a pat or stroke etc.

It's all the horse's body, their life, their autonomy.

The horse isn't a servant.

If a horse is resistant about having anything done - including having their back done - we should respect that, and ask ourselves why they are resisting and work to understand why. There's always a reason - either it hurts, or they are guarding themselves emotionally - or both.

Sorry to seem argumentative, but reading this really surprised me.
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If they need a wound cleaned or stitched would you say it's their choice to refuse? Obviously we can sedate, but that again requires that they be touched to an extent to get the needle in the vein (and feels like overkill for minor wounds that don't need stitching).
I don't advocate for hassling them unduly if they're uncomfortable, but I'd rather they got used to the idea that they have to have a brush/cloth run over every part of their body once in a while than end up trying to handle a horse that is both in pain and not used to touch.
 
SpeedyPony said:
If they need a wound cleaned or stitched would you say it's their choice to refuse? Obviously we can sedate, but that again requires that they be touched to an extent to get the needle in the vein (and feels like overkill for minor wounds that don't need stitching).
I don't advocate for hassling them unduly if they're uncomfortable, but I'd rather they got used to the idea that they have to have a brush/cloth run over every part of their body once in a while than end up trying to handle a horse that is both in pain and not used to touch.
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From what I've experienced, if you give your horse a choice over the negotiables, they're more likely to trust you in emergency situations where you just have to get on with the unpleasant thing. This is based on building up a trust bucket as it were.

Let's say you're in a scary situation and you have to put your trust in another human - would you choose the life partner who has always had your back and been there with you through thick and thin, or the gaslighter who makes you feel bad about the tiniest perceived faults and you tread on eggshells around them?
 
SpeedyPony said:
If they need a wound cleaned or stitched would you say it's their choice to refuse? Obviously we can sedate, but that again requires that they be touched to an extent to get the needle in the vein (and feels like overkill for minor wounds that don't need stitching).
I don't advocate for hassling them unduly if they're uncomfortable, but I'd rather they got used to the idea that they have to have a brush/cloth run over every part of their body once in a while than end up trying to handle a horse that is both in pain and not used to touch.
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Crikey no!! And that isn't what I wrote.

But without experience of working in a way that gets the horse 'on side' I can appreciate that it might seem impossible to do that. There are ways to do things while still achieving the necessary task. You can turn anxiety, apprehension, resistance, a 'NO' into a trusting, positive situation.

Sometimes all the horse needs when they resist is for you to pause, acknowledge that you can see they're not happy/confident/it hurts/etc, take a moment to literally explain why you need to do what you need to do, and I find they then generally relax and allow you to go ahead - as long as you pause the next time they resist too. Often they just need a little processing time - a few seconds perhaps. Just to be able to find Calm, and think. Sometimes they do need help to stop spiralling into panic, and I'm not saying to just have them loose in a 10 acre field and try to do things with fairy dust, but I find that if you heed their input and work with their responses you can do a huge amount more than you'd expect - with their consent, and therefore positively.

Of course having them accepting touch positively in an area before they need veterinary-type help there is part of responsible horse-owning, but my point is that it is for us to ask, and to make it a positive thing for them, not a 'You will do this because I require it and I will not heed your input.'.

Carrying on when a being of any species is actively resisting is to force upon them without consent, and regardless of the intention of the action, it does not build trust - quite the opposite.

Imagine you find yourself on an alien planet with the aliens trying to do things to you. Put your mind in a horse's position. How would you need the aliens to interact with you. What would leave you with resentment and unpleasant memories. What would make you trust the aliens.

What if you shouted 'I'm frightened', 'That hurts!', 'I'm starting to panic' and they just carried on regardless? What if they paused each time you expressed something and gave you chance to breathe for a few moments.

There are so many horses out there who have issues because of interactions they've had with people making them do things and not heeding them. The horse is always right, and their opinion at that moment in time should always be the overriding one.

So what if you need to sedate a horse one time for a minor wound. Far better to do that than to leave them emotionally scarred. A good experience this time pays dividends down the line.
 
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Miss_Millie said:
From what I've experienced, if you give your horse a choice over the negotiables, they're more likely to trust you in emergency situations where you just have to get on with the unpleasant thing. This is based on building up a trust bucket as it were.

Let's say you're in a scary situation and you have to put your trust in another human - would you choose the life partner who has always had your back and been there with you through thick and thin, or the gaslighter who makes you feel bad about the tiniest perceived faults and you tread on eggshells around them?
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I don't think it's quite the same scenario though, it's more like dealing with a child than a partner.
I agree that you want to build a rapport and have them trust you, but as with a child, saying 'oh darling you don't have to put up with anything you dislike' is unhelpful in the long run. 'you can have the mud brushed off with the dandy brush or the cactus cloth' is a more reasonable compromise IMO.
 
SpeedyPony said:
saying 'oh darling you don't have to put up with anything you dislike' is unhelpful in the long run
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I think that is actually a very healthy thing to teach any child, person or animal.

People don't dislike things just to make other people's lives difficult - there is always a reason for their dislike.

Dislike doesn't have to be a finite thing though, it can be discussed, and opinions can be changed, but in the moment any being has the right to say 'I don't like or want that'.
 
PurpleSpots said:
Crikey no!! And that isn't what I wrote.

But without experience of working in a way that gets the horse 'on side' I can appreciate that it might seem impossible to do that. There are ways to do things while still achieving the necessary task. You can turn anxiety, apprehension, resistance, a 'NO' into a trusting, positive situation.

Sometimes all the horse needs when they resist is for you to pause, acknowledge that you can see they're not happy/confident/it hurts/etc, take a moment to literally explain why you need to do what you need to do, and I find they then generally relax and allow you to go ahead - as long as you pause the next time they resist too. Sometimes they do need help to stop spiralling into panic, and I'm not saying to just have them loose in a 10 acre field and try to do things with fairy dust, but I find that if you heed their input and work with their responses you can do a huge amount more than you'd expect - with their consent, and therefore positively.

Of course having them accepting touch positively in an area before they need veterinary-type help there is part of responsible horse-owning, but my point is that it is for us to ask, and to make it a positive thing for them, not a 'You will do this because I require it and I will not heed your input.'.

Carrying on when a being of any species is actively resisting is to force upon them without consent, and regardless of the intention of the action, it does not build trust - quite the opposite.

Imagine you find yourself on an alien planet with the aliens trying to do things to you. Put your mind in a horse's position. How would you need the aliens to interact with you. What would leave you with resentment and unpleasant memories. What would make you trust the aliens.

There are so many horses out there who have issues because of interactions they've had with people making them do things and not heeding them. The horse is always right, and their opinion at that moment in time should always be the overriding one.

So what if you need to sedate a horse one time for a minor wound. Far better to do that than to leave them emotionally scarred. A good experience this time pays dividends down the line.
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Oh, I agree you want them to accept it happily and that is what I was trying to get at, but that can require taking them up to the edge of their comfort zone. For some there are also places where, due to their being particularly ticklish, they're never going to enjoy it.
I don't tie my horses down and insist they just put up with things! I have given breaks when cleaning wounds when they've asked, or compromised on how they're groomed, but there are things that have to be done- we can work on the how but it's going to happen.
For instance, my sec D hates having her head held. She needed eye drops 3x per day for a week- sedation was not an option! We came to the compromise that I wouldn't hold her head collar and she would keep her head still enough for me to administer the eye drops (with the aid of a little bribery). That's something I'm happy to do, but she wasn't allowed to say no to the eye drops.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I think that is actually a very healthy thing to teach any child, person or animal.

People don't dislike things just to make other people's lives difficult - there is always a reason for their dislike.

Dislike doesn't have to be a finite thing though, it can be discussed, and opinions can be changed, but in the moment any being has the right to say 'I don't like or want that'.
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I think we might be misunderstanding one another- it sounds like you're talking about compromise (i.e. the brush Vs cloth, or in the case of a child offering shower or bath) which is very reasonable. My meaning with the above was that you can't just allow a child to remain filthy because they don't like washing, so offering a choice of appropriate options is better.
AFAIK this is the rationale behind 'gentle parenting'- you don't ask the child if they want to wash, as that has to happen, you just offer the choice of how.
 
SpeedyPony said:
Oh, I agree you want them to accept it happily and that is what I was trying to get at, but that can require taking them up to the edge of their comfort zone. For some there are also places where, due to their being particularly ticklish, they're never going to enjoy it.
I don't tie my horses down and insist they just put up with things! I have given breaks when cleaning wounds when they've asked, or compromised on how they're groomed, but there are things that have to be done- we can work on the how but it's going to happen.
For instance, my sec D hates having her head held. She needed eye drops 3x per day for a week- sedation was not an option! We came to the compromise that I wouldn't hold her head collar and she would keep her head still enough for me to administer the eye drops (with the aid of a little bribery). That's something I'm happy to do, but she wasn't allowed to say no to the eye drops.
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From what you've written, she didn't say 'No' to the eye drops, and you did heed her 'No' to holding the headcollar.

Given that she is able to say no to having the headcollar held, it would seem that she also could have said no to the eye drops. And that's a really positive thing, especially as she received something positive ('bribery') for it!
(Though the not liking her headcollar being held would make me wonder why, that's not a positive thing and I'd want to work out the reason and alleviate it if I could, but from the angle of consent it is.)


SpeedyPony said:
I think we might be misunderstanding one another- it sounds like you're talking about compromise (i.e. the brush Vs cloth, or in the case of a child offering shower or bath) which is very reasonable. My meaning with the above was that you can't just allow a child to remain filthy because they don't like washing, so offering a choice of appropriate options is better.
AFAIK this is the rationale behind 'gentle parenting'- you don't ask the child if they want to wash, as that has to happen, you just offer the choice of how.
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I'm not actually writing about compromise, I'm simply writing about consent, and heeding the horse's input.

Acting with a lack of consent in the bathing the child scenario would be to manhandle the child into a bath and pour water over them regardless of what they do. Offering choices gives the child the ability to find positivity and give their consent.

For a horse with a cut leg or other body part I wouldn't feel it appropriate to offer choices, but I would feel it appropriate to heed the horse's input and pause every time they expressed discontent, and potentially re-evaluate how to proceed if necessary.
 
PurpleSpots said:
From what you've written, she didn't say 'No' to the eye drops, and you did heed her 'No' to holding the headcollar.

Given that she is able to say no to having the headcollar held, it would seem that she also could have said no to the eye drops. And that's a really positive thing, especially as she received something positive ('bribery') for it!
(Though the not liking her headcollar being held would make me wonder why, that's not a positive thing and I'd want to work out the reason and alleviate it if I could, but from the angle of consent it is.)




I'm not actually writing about compromise, I'm simply writing about consent, and heeding the horse's input.

Acting with a lack of consent in the bathing the child scenario would be to manhandle the child into a bath and pour water over them regardless of what they do. Offering choices gives the child the ability to find positivity and give their consent.

For a horse with a cut leg or other body part I wouldn't feel it appropriate to offer choices, but I would feel it appropriate to heed the horse's input and pause every time they expressed discontent, and potentially re-evaluate how to proceed if necessary.
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I didn't ask her if she wanted the eye drops though, that was happening but I was happy to take input on how. It took a bit of wheedling to get her to accept it the first time, although thereafter she was happy with the idea. Somewhat on a tangent, but I think I know why she doesn't like the head collar held- when I bought her she'd had all her whiskers clipped off and her reaction the first time I clipped the old boy in front of her (went from her usual "all over me like a rash" to the other end of the field) suggests this was done by pinning her up against the wall of the box. I've since been able to clip her (NOT the whiskers!) with no drama, as she'd seen the others being clipped happily often enough. That I left until she was more comfortable, as there was no reason to rush it.
In the child bathing situation, you're not asking for their consent to wash/be washed (according to age), as if they say no, you still have to get them clean and so you teach them the wrong lesson, that their wishes will be over-ridden. If you ask them how, that's fine- but it is a question of how, not if.
 
Being honest this all feels a bit like the whole ‘asking an infant who can’t talk to change its nappy’ debacle 👀

I saw that on Facebook and kinda had a chuckle at it. I find horses body language says a lot but not in regards to me touching them all over.

Again it feels a bit old humans anthropomorphising animals to me.
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Being honest this all feels a bit like the whole ‘asking an infant who can’t talk to change its nappy’ debacle 👀

I saw that on Facebook and kinda had a chuckle at it. I find horses body language says a lot but not in regards to me touching them all over.

Again it feels a bit old humans anthropomorphising animals to me.
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That popped into my head as well- I can't find the video, but 'pleasant parent media' did a video on exactly that, explaining that she doesn't ask for consent to change a nappy, as she has to anyway and so they will learn their no doesn't matter if she asks.
 
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