Update - horse with blood in urine

[applecart14]

I rang the vets just to see if they had looked at Baileys water sample. They hadn't but one of the vets went away and did a dipstick and rang me back and said there was absolutely no evidence of blood in the urine, and that it is a very reliable test. There was no evidence of raised glucose levels or keytones either. She asked me what made me think there was blood in the urine so I told her about how I'd found bright fresh blood on top of my shavings on Friday and thought it was a bird or mouse the cat had brought in. But then as I started digging found blood mixed with urine in the used shavings. I explained about how I'd checked him all over and could find no blood on him from his mouth, ears, nose and bottom. I also explained how the Y.O had seen him stood splayed out on Monday or Tuesday during the day in the paddock and I also explained about how I'd noticed his bed had become really wet since last weekend and suddenly put two and two together. Told her I'd spoke to two separate vets from the practice who said to get sample and drop it off but there was no immediate panic as horse was very well in himself.

She said that in order to get a sample for the lab to analyse for bacteria or infection urine would have to be very recent. She agreed that my horse can wait until he is seen by the vet on Friday for his reassessment with his neuro/loss of performance claim.

She said (as the first vet had said) that they would put a catheter up to get a sample and also have a look to see if there was a problem with his penis (presumably this is penile cancer that geldings his age are prone to) and get a sample to send away for checking for bugs.

I feel confident that my horse is okay but cannot understand where this blood has come from as it was definitely there. I know what I saw and even took a few photos of the blood on his bed and on the floor. My O/H saw a little that I'd missed getting out of the bed from the day before so he saw it too. I feel like I am going mad, I am really confused how a sample some 24 or so hours later would not show blood.

I am very happy with my vet and confident that they know what they are talking about. So long as Bailey is 'normal' in eating, drinking, urinating and poohing then I feel happy to wait until Friday.

 

[paddi22]

I had exactly the same thing happen to one of mine. Like you you i found blood (what looked like a lot) in shavings bed, on two occasions about two weeks apart. Vet came out and did full range of internal, external and blood tests, and nothing came up at all. His best guess was it was a blood vessel might have popped somewhere. As horse was in good condition, bright and alert, he said to wait and see if anything reoccured and they'd take her in for further work. But it never came back and i never found out what caused it.

 

[Cecile]

This is totally an aside and means nothing other than my ramblings

I have always had a few goats about the place, I like them
One day one of the wethers came wandering over to the stable and pee'd on the concrete, there was most certainly blood visible
So I took an ice cream tub and wandered around behind him, if you think taking a wee sample for a stabled horse is unusual trying taking one from a horned goat who isn't too impressed with an ice cream tub being put under his nether regions

All of a sudden he pee'd for England and I mean a huge none stop pee which was pretty unusual, I examined the pee and there was no blood but there was quite a lot of chalky substance (Like stones which wethered goats can be prone to) well after all that peeing it never ever happened again, so in effect he had cleared it himself, he lived to a ripe old age without any further problems

Doesn't mean anything at all to your situation but its just another angle

I also think horses and all animals are put on this planet to confuse us and send us mad

 

[applecart14]

I am a little worried that it could be bladder/kidney cancer as my horse has lost weight over the last few months, his teeth were check 9 months ago, he is on around 28lbs of hay per day, and has two feeds. He isn't ridden that much and is adequately warm with the rugs he wears. He's always been a really good doer and its only in the last four to five months or so that I have seen his ribs, he's been regularly weighed and although never put on more than a couple of KG between weigh ins, has not lost either. You can see all his ribs. Vets not too concerned.

I will wait and see what Friday brings.

 

[ycbm]

Applecart I've already tried to explain about kidney stones to you but I'll have one more go. While they are traveling down the ureter from the kidney to the bladder, they hurt like hell, scrape the tube and bleed. Once passed, the bleeding stops.

At the time I read that most kidney stones in humans are calcium oxylate, so I assume that they are in horses too. They are likely to be caused by either too much calcium in the food/water or by dehydration (my case).

Your description on the other thread of cloudy sediment would make me wonder.

If no other reason is found, then it would be wise to consider those two possibilities for your fellow. They are prone to recur and are exceptionally painful while stuck in a tube.

 

[applecart14]

Applecart I've already tried to explain about kidney stones to you but I'll have one more go. While they are traveling down the ureter from the kidney to the bladder, they hurt like hell, scrape the tube and bleed. Once passed, the bleeding stops.

At the time I read that most kidney stones in humans are calcium oxylate, so I assume that they are in horses too. They are likely to be caused by either too much calcium in the food/water or by dehydration (my case).

Your description on the other thread of cloudy sediment would make me wonder.

If no other reason is found, then it would be wise to consider those two possibilities for your fellow. They are prone to recur and are exceptionally painful while stuck in a tube.

Cecile - your last sentence

YCBM - Thanks for your patronizing tone YCBM but its not that I have not been listening. But A) you are not a vet, B) I am not a vet and C) I have spoke to three vets now all of whom have said it can wait until Friday. What exactly will be gained by them visiting the horse? Can you tell me this?

Three telephone consultations all telling me the same thing. I am guided by their expertise.

If he were in pain he would be stood in the corner of his box, ears back, face in a grimace - the signs I have seen so many times with him previously with his colic episodes of old. His ears are pricked, his eyes alert, hungry and eating well, mugging me for mints, scratching his ear with his hind foot, towing me to the field to be turned out, and happy to be groomed and tacked up. All normal horse behavior. There is no indication of any pain.

Paddi 22 - thank you for your story. That must have been a frustrating experience for you.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for your patronizing tone YCBM but its not that I have not been listening. But A) you are not a vet, B) I am not a vet and C) I have spoke to three vets now all of whom have said it can wait until Friday. What exactly will be gained by them visiting the horse? Can you tell me this?

Three telephone consultations all telling me the same thing. I am guided by their expertise.

If he were in pain he would be stood in the corner of his box, ears back, face in a grimace - the signs I have seen so many times with him previously with his colic episodes of old. His ears are pricked, his eyes alert, hungry and eating well, mugging me for mints, scratching his ear with his hind foot, towing me to the field to be turned out, and happy to be groomed and tacked up. All normal horse behavior. There is no indication of any pain.

You complain about being jumped on on this forum but by crikey you don't half ask for it sometimes you ungrateful wretch

Who said anything about Friday or current pain?

 

[applecart14]

You complain about being jumped on on this forum but by crikey you don't half ask for it sometimes you ungrateful wretch

Who said anything about Friday or current pain?

Whatever

 

[ycbm]

You can thank me for spending my time and energy trying to help you and your horse any time you like Applecart. I can wait.

 

[milliepops]

as usual, all of us speak from our own experiences and 'comfort levels' and this tends to lead to some heated exchanges. FWIW applecart I think as your vets appear to have said the same thing consistently, which was that they weren't concerned that this needed immediate attention, then the mud that's getting flung at you can't really stick..

I wouldn't necessarily have done the same, I think I'd have called vet and said I need them to see a horse because x, y, and z but that's just a different way of playing it, and I'm not good with the 'wait and see' approach. The outcome may not have been any different.

I do think ycbm that you appear to get very involved in some of the medical/veterinary related threads on this forum - just an observation, most of them I don't choose to respond to but I see a lot of well intentioned and clearly considered advice but not always the recognition that different people make different - valid - choices.

In light of the vets advice i don't think it's fair to come done on ac in this instance, would be a different story if no veterinary advice had been sought. In my opinion. :wink3:

ETA . In the meantime, glad that Bailey appears to be doing well, fingers x'd for you between now and Friday.

 

[applecart14]

You can thank me for spending my time and energy trying to help you and your horse any time you like Applecart. I can wait.

Err first of all you accused me of only coming on the forum to get sympathy and support. Then you patronised me by saying that you would attempt to explain to me again. And then you call me an ungrateful wretch.

And you want me to thank you????

You were not spending your time and energy trying to help me. You were putting me down, making me feel stupid, and ultimately trying to get a rise out of me as its more fun for you that way.

I feel very sorry for you. I just wish people would try and open their eyes and see what's really going on with this thread because this is becoming a common theme throughout H&H forum these days.

 

[ester]

Probably good news then, its a shame you don't seem to have responded to my last post on the other thread about people's concern from what you put in the OP and their experiences. It would have been nice to have it one post so that those that took the time to tell you about some not so great periods of theirs lives has a notification of the result today, perhaps you could add the link to this thread?

 

[ycbm]

I do think ycbm that you appear to get very involved in some of the medical/veterinary related threads on this forum - just an observation, most of them I don't choose to respond to but I see a lot of well intentioned and clearly considered advice but not always the recognition that different people make different - valid - choices.

In light of the vets advice i don't think it's fair to come done on ac in this instance, would be a different story if no veterinary advice had been sought.

I have criticised Applecart for being a ungrateful wretch and for blowing up about Friday and current pain which I never even mentioned. She was expressing her own and her vets perplexity as to where the blood and sporadic pain signs came from and I offered her a potential answer.

My post had zilch to do with whether or not she has sought or taken veterinary advice, so why are you having a pop at me now for having a go at her about that?

Feel free to comment on any thread where you feel I have given poor advice, that's what open forums are all about.

 

[ycbm]

Err first of all you accused me of only coming on the forum to get sympathy and support. Then you patronised me by saying that you would attempt to explain to me again. And then you call me an ungrateful wretch.

And you want me to thank you????

You were not spending your time and energy trying to help me. You were putting me down, making me feel stupid, and ultimately trying to get a rise out of me as its more fun for you that way.

I feel very sorry for you. I just wish people would try and open their eyes and see what's really going on with this thread because this is becoming a common theme throughout H&H forum these days.

I have in my recollection NEVER suggested that you only come onto the forum for sympathy and support. Please point me to that post.

I have OFTEN backed you up on other threads when people seemed to me to be getting at you unfairly. Your office heating thread was one of several.

I have NEVER in my recollection ever posted on a thread of yours without the intention being to help you or your horse. With the exception of commenting on your completely misdirected and excessive reaction to my post on this thread, which has finally exasperated me.

 

[milliepops]

I have criticised Applecart for being a ungrateful wretch and for blowing up about Friday and current pain which I never even mentioned. She was expressing her own and her vets perplexity as to where the blood and sporadic pain signs came from and I offered her a potential answer.

My post had zilch to do with whether or not she has sought or taken veterinary advice, so why are you having a pop at me now for having a go at her about that?

Feel free to comment on any thread where you feel I have given poor advice, that's what open forums are all about.

I would do if I felt you had given poor advice - look again, I didn't say anything about that. Just that - clearly - other people may not choose to take it and that is OK. It seems to be totally valid in this case to choose not to freak out over kidney stones *immediately* as the vet doesn't seem to be concerned that they leap into action straight away.

By coming back repeatedly and repeating your experiences with kidney stones it does appear like you are trying to kick ac into action faster than her vets are advising necessary.

As I said, I would have probably driven horse to vet and asked that they examine it there an then but that's MY choice, my level of anxiety and quite possibly they'd have said 'nope,wait and see' and I'd have driven it home again So I accept that other options are *valid*.

It's a little unfair to expect gushing thanks for coming onto a forum to share experiences, we're all here of our own free will and because we enjoy chatting to other horsey people, not because we can demand thanks or gratitude though we're all human so it's always nice to receive thanks.

FWIW it was the Margot thread that first made me a little sensitised to your apparent difficulty in letting things lie when people make different choices - I understand totally that it comes from a good place and believe it to be 100% genuine but I am concerned that you take it to heart when people choose otherwise to what you believe to be the right thing. Just a thought. Because I think it makes you come across a bit bolshy when I doubt that is the intention.

 

[ycbm]

It was NEW information about how the kidney stones would fit the bill and how to rule them out in future. I did not suggest that it needed any immediate action.

I was not expecting gushing thanks, or any in fact, that post was ironic. But I was expecting her not to go ape over Friday and current pain, neither of which I had mentioned.

People read all sorts of things into the wording on posts. Please don't concern yourself about me, just comment at the time if you want to question anything I post. I'm sure AC doesn't want this thread to turn into an analysis of my motives or psyche even though you seem to

 

[milliepops]

lol deal :thumbup: . I'm not concerned about you tbh, I'm pretty sure you can look after yourself :lol: I didn't want to comment on Margot's thread either at the point it made me wince for her, because it really wasn't the time nor place :wink3:

anyway, all is back to normal on HHO! Post back on Friday AC, if you feel like updating us Really hoping you have some good news.

 

[applecart14]

I have in my recollection NEVER suggested that you only come onto the forum for sympathy and support. Please point me to that post.

I have OFTEN backed you up on other threads when people seemed to me to be getting at you unfairly. Your office heating thread was one of several.

I have NEVER in my recollection ever posted on a thread of yours without the intention being to help you or your horse. With the exception of commenting on your completely misdirected and excessive reaction to my post on this thread, which has finally exasperated me.

Applecart you really make me wonder sometimes. You complain about the way you are treated on this forum, and sometimes people do jump on you quite hard. And then you post a thread saying that your horse is bleeding and may have a urinary infection or kidney stones and that you don't intend a vet to see it for one day short of a full week. Honestly, what did you expect us to say? Why did you post? Because if it was for sympathy and support, I'm not sure you'll be getting much of it.

 

[applecart14]

Post back on Friday AC, if you feel like updating us Really hoping you have some good news.

Thanks Milliepops but I really can't face anymore of this c**P at the moment.
Thanks you for your help and those other posters who were kind enough to post positively.

 

[ycbm]

That is not an accusation that you only post for sympathy and attention. It is a question why you posted if you did not want any advice. It seeks clarification, it is not an accusation unless you choose to read it that way, which you do.

I see you are failing to acknowledge the number of times I've stuck up for you on this forum. The good news is that I don't hold grudges and if I see you unfairly picked on again, which I have seen several times and I'm sure I will again, it will not stop me supporting you again.

 

[Goldenstar]

I rang the vets just to see if they had looked at Baileys water sample. They hadn't but one of the vets went away and did a dipstick and rang me back and said there was absolutely no evidence of blood in the urine, and that it is a very reliable test. There was no evidence of raised glucose levels or keytones either. She asked me what made me think there was blood in the urine so I told her about how I'd found bright fresh blood on top of my shavings on Friday and thought it was a bird or mouse the cat had brought in. But then as I started digging found blood mixed with urine in the used shavings. I explained about how I'd checked him all over and could find no blood on him from his mouth, ears, nose and bottom. I also explained how the Y.O had seen him stood splayed out on Monday or Tuesday during the day in the paddock and I also explained about how I'd noticed his bed had become really wet since last weekend and suddenly put two and two together. Told her I'd spoke to two separate vets from the practice who said to get sample and drop it off but there was no immediate panic as horse was very well in himself.

She said that in order to get a sample for the lab to analyse for bacteria or infection urine would have to be very recent. She agreed that my horse can wait until he is seen by the vet on Friday for his reassessment with his neuro/loss of performance claim.

She said (as the first vet had said) that they would put a catheter up to get a sample and also have a look to see if there was a problem with his penis (presumably this is penile cancer that geldings his age are prone to) and get a sample to send away for checking for bugs.

I feel confident that my horse is okay but cannot understand where this blood has come from as it was definitely there. I know what I saw and even took a few photos of the blood on his bed and on the floor. My O/H saw a little that I'd missed getting out of the bed from the day before so he saw it too. I feel like I am going mad, I am really confused how a sample some 24 or so hours later would not show blood.

I am very happy with my vet and confident that they know what they are talking about. So long as Bailey is 'normal' in eating, drinking, urinating and poohing then I feel happy to wait until Friday.

Your not going mad if you saw blood you saw it .
It's perfectly possible it was some form of transient problem which may or may not reoccur .
You just have to keep as close an eye on him as you can and act fast if something changes .
Horses are sometimes like cars that never make the funny noise when you are at the garage .
My FIL was taken to hospital at the weekend because his pacemaker was bleeping you can guess what the pacemaker was doing when they got to the hospital ....nothing that was not normal .

 

[rara007]

ACs horse really does not have any of the signs of (rare in horses) kidney stones. Not sure where that idea came from! Good luck for Friday

 

[ester]

It came from her vet in the first post of her other thread people are just responding to what her vet suggested.

 

[rara007]

He said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).

 

[ycbm]

ACs horse really does not have any of the signs of (rare in horses) kidney stones. Not sure where that idea came from! Good luck for Friday

[vet] said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).

Horse has been reported to have:

had on and off low grade colic over the last year, was seen to stand camped out with no resulting urine in the last two weeks, has been seen to have bled into urine in/on the bed and is producing urine cloudy urine with noticeable sediment.

I know zero about kidney stones in horses but I think the causes are the same as humans, which would be too much calcium in the diet or low grade dehydration over a period of time. If the horse was mine and nothing else is found on Friday, I'd just be double checking those two as a precaution.

I hope it's not serious, unexplained blood is frightening for anyone.

 

[SpringArising]

Blood isn't always present throughout a UTI. Again, speaking from my own experience, when I'm in the 'acute' phase of one (the first 6 or so hours usually), there is blood in my urine. Sometimes a lot, and sometimes just streaks. After that time, even though I can still feel the infection is there (they have lasted weeks and weeks), there is no more blood. So just because there isn't blood that doesn't mean the infection isn't present any more.

 

[rara007]

A horse with kidney stones would not be showing those signs, it's much more acute and would also probably be really pretty ill by now. Bladder is much more likely if uroliths are the cause at all.

 

[ester]

He said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).

Yup which is why I've said before its difficult to know who has said what to who and why and if everyone is working off the same info.

 

[cobgoblin]

A calculus anywhere in the urinary system could cause these signs....it just depends on its size.

 

[Beausmate]

I am a little worried that it could be bladder/kidney cancer as my horse has lost weight over the last few months, his teeth were check 9 months ago, he is on around 28lbs of hay per day, and has two feeds. He isn't ridden that much and is adequately warm with the rugs he wears. He's always been a really good doer and its only in the last four to five months or so that I have seen his ribs, he's been regularly weighed and although never put on more than a couple of KG between weigh ins, has not lost either. You can see all his ribs. Vets not too concerned.

I will wait and see what Friday brings.

I doubt very much that it is cancer, the weight loss tends to be rapid and Bailey wouldn't be looking otherwise healthy if it had been going on for months.

Have you considered a PPID test? My old horse didn't get fat last summer; I have had him for 18 years and he has turned into a lardarse every year without fail. Last year I had to give him hard feed to maintain his weight, so I had him tested and it came back positive.